Here is my 2 cents on RDF+ next phase Heroic+++ (Charlie)

You act like you cant make your own raid. Cant join a guild, cant do anything!

Also, you ignored the part of normal heroics being able to provide the emblems for gear.

How many “normal heroics” (how I gag at typing that crap out) have you really done since WotLKC phase 2 launched?

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that would suck. im planning on copy toon so i have one that goes to cata and one that stays in wrath. i was on a deployment when cata came out so i never really got to play it. itll be neat to see it. iw as gone till end of MOP. so we will see where this goes.

We have no assurance there will be a Wrath Era server.

im certainly hoping for one. as are most of my guild honestly.

Its confirmed that gamma dungeons are coming now.

Edit: note about the ICC 5 man dungeons:

No shock there. They just can’t let go of their failed Mythic experiment in Wrath. There’s absolutely no reason for this. RDF offers a catch-up mechanic in an actual authentic way.

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And then we know what difficulty we can expect Gamma to be as well.

I’m actually genuinely impressed with these patch notes, for once they’re erring on the side of quality of life rather than “muh design pillars”.

I give them full props.

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At least they’re not changing anything mechanics/stats-wise for the ICC dungeons. So I guess that means they’ll simply drop an additional piece of gear ToC gear, can’t really complain about that.

But yeah, the mechanics in the other dungeons are annoying, as evidenced by them completely nuking the blood pools mechanic from DTK/Gundrak in beta dungeons.

Big ole’rip. Was hoping they’d go my way lol.

Exactly. At its core, the idea behind Titan Rune Beta dungeons, namely that 5-man content scales in difficulty and reward with each new raid tier, sounds great. And if executed properly (that is, if thoroughly integrated into the expansion as a foundational mechanic), it really could help expedite the process of obtaining gear for new players and/or alts.

Unfortunately, like so many of the changes made to WotLK Classic, the feature as implemented ended up half-baked, because the classic team simply failed to adequately appreciate the full-reaching consequences of their actions. It’s clear that nobody on the team asked or seriously considered the basic question of what the impact might be of geared characters no longer running regular heroics. As an engineer, it’s difficult to comprehend how this wasn’t discussed. I can’t imagine working at a company where such a glaring, product-destroying oversight is allowed to occur.

Now they’ve reversed course and are bringing back the RDF tool (after stating unequivocally that they would NOT be changing their minds on this) as a band-aid for the terribly broken gear progression system they’ve introduced.


Geared characters wouldn’t have been running regular heroics anyways. Other than maybe the daily for the first week or 2 of a new patch.

The great thing about heroics was that they were easy enough such that two ToC geared players, or one ICC geared player could easily carry three or four fresh 80s. The mix of progression-tier players doing their daily (for two badges, not five!), mid-tier alts farming badges, and fresh 80s looking for gear was enough to maintain a sufficient player-base for the content patch’s duration.

EDIT: the daily heroic was relevant for months, not weeks. People do the daily until they don’t need any additional badges.

EDIT 2: I’m not saying that the original WotLK didn’t have gatekeeping as an issue. Even back then, you had players requesting 5k GS for a heroic 5-man. But that was the exception rather than the rule. Back then, I was able to gear up several DPS classes to raid ICC without any real issue, just through use of the original LFG tool, and later the RDF tool. In contrast, this time though, I was actually (literally) unable to find a single group for my Disc Priest alt upon hitting 80. After maybe two days of looking for and not being able to find a single group that wasn’t a H++ dungeon, I said “screw it” and spent the money on BoE gear.


Right and since there was no reason for geared players not to take fresh 80’s when there was just regular heroics it was a lot more friendly for everyone. H+ just makes it a mess where geared players actively avoid fresh 80’s.


If they went back to two only most people wouldn’t do the daily at all.

Regular Heroics still exist and geared characters barely run dungeons at all let alone dungeons that give them nothing.

In Original Wrath; this isn’t even close to the same playerbase.

You also have to take into account they increased the rate of emblems because Classic in general is a reduced timeframe for the same content. It’s not the 2 years of Original Wrath, it’ll be maybe 18 months max.

They not only would they’d do them for longer.

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That is all that is needed.

Its how retail heroic works. A few geared players working that heroic for a quest (daily or weekly). fresh(er) level caps catch these and say woohoo, its my lucky day.

Mythic dungeon players came to heroic to not deal with lfg waits or were done with it. They did their 8. Weekly progress to KSM/KSH over. Or are actually those achievements already.

They came in geared and even if 2 were fresh level caps…the heroic was getting steamrolled.

I had runs I was the scrub geared player. Scrub gear being stage 1 conquest gear minimal. I was there for my quest hits.

Retail dangles bait to get even the “elite” in heroic. Wrath has not really. A “pro” at Beta if slumming it…will slum it in Alpha and forget heroic normal exists.

Around 75-100. And p4 they will drop emblems that can buy you T9. So pure emblems from normal heroics will offer better gear than heroic++ does right now. Sure it wont cover every slot, but it will get you full T9, a ring, neck, trinket, etc.

It becomes far more viable for gearing up an alt than it is now.

This is the part the Classic team really doesn’t understand. Even the most geared characters didn’t care if someone had crap gear, or maybe not the optimal spec. That was a great thing about Wrath Heroics and why they were so chill, relaxed, and fun.

Instead they add this scaling difficulty nonsense. So naturally the playerbase acts like toxic, elitist tryhard min/maxing gatekeepers. For a freaking Wrath dungeon. Talk about straying from authenticity to the highest degree imaginable.


Why I have retail actually more social in a way.

I ran heriocs not even needing gear. I traded drops away. Not even being asked as you could e-stalk the players gear.

Dude…you need this way more than I need it, here you go. Merry x-mas!

I did the same in lfr too. I didn’t need its gear either. I ran that for vault fillers.