I’m really not sure how or why people keep skipping right over this. Or intentionally ignoring it. The days of rotary phones, VHS, answering machines and complex rotations are over. It’s a D3 world. Let it go and keep mashing your 4 buttons.
Seems like Demon Hunter (Havoc) is not a spec for you. Every single suggestion of yours tears down at what Havoc was built upon. You just want a new class with the same theme. Also, every suggestion is highly problematic in a mechanical level.
I’m all in for more abilities, but we are not going to, nor do I want it, to get overly complicated rotations that need 110% concentration to execute. Complexity for the sake of complexity is just as bad as something oversimplified.
Keep in mind that a simple rotation is the norm and specs such as Feral and Unholy are the exception.
I dunno about Unholy at a raid level, but Feral isn’t remotely complex. It has a reputation for complexity, but that’s based on prior expansions where it actually had that. The only “complexity” left is remembering to use Regrowth before your finisher. The dominant build even takes Sabertooth in almost all cases, which massively simplifies the rotation by making Rip effectively a fire-and-forget permanent DoT. The dominant build also tends to take Soul of the Forest, another completely passive and simple choice, over the talent that historically caused some of that “complex” reputation, Savage Roar.
On the trait side, Wild Fleshrending adds a minor amount of complexity by adding Thrash to the single target rotation, but the other “complex” trait, Iron Jaws, is almost universally avoided. None of the rest of the traits really add anything notable to the rotation.
I’ve played both and raided on both in BfA, and while Feral is certainly a bit more complex than Havoc, it’s definitely not what I would consider “complex”. That’s especially the case when the druid can easily opt out of almost all of the remaining complexity simply by taking Moment of Clarity and avoiding Wild Fleshrending, choices that are very much viable to make even at the mythic level (~10% of warcraftlog’s mythic feral parses took Moment of Clarity, and ~32% lacked even a single Wild Fleshrending).
Anyway, pedantic aside mostly to say that even one of those “exceptions” isn’t really an exception anymore. Blizzard has massively simplified Feral since the days it earned that reputation of complexity.
That’s one more reason for people to stop with this “havoc easy” nonsense then.
But it is easy.
The most complex mechanic in a havoc demon hunter’s rotation is soul management, provided the DH isn’t running felblade / demon blades. This mechanic literally requires us to stand still until it’s time to collect our souls.
Otherwise, it’s mind-numbing. Blade dance off cooldown. Eye Beam off cooldown (unless adds are spawning or something is about to happen that would require us to delay). chaos strike filler. demon’s bite to generate fury. None of the abilities really interact with each other. Eye beam rotation is the same as regular rotation. it is a monotonous rotation with straightforward abilities that aren’t in any way impressive in terms of design. I don’t know how any long-term DH raider or pvp’er doesn’t get bored out of their mind with our simplistic rotation. To each his own, of course, but this is after all an opinionated thread, and i’m of the opinion that the class deserves a fair bit more complexity. Not for the sake of complexity, but for the sake of me staying awake during encounters.
But if havoc is “built upon” a bad foundation, that isn’t good reasoning. You’re apparently saying it’s built upon simplicity. The degree of simplicity, however, is what’s the problem. I’m not asking for a reversion to earlier expansions where it felt like we didn’t have enough keybinds available to play a class. I’m asking for our class to have at least five baseline abilities, with some that actually synergize with each other in one form or another.
Yes, and this is absolutely intended!
Who are you to say it’s a bad foundation!!!
No, it isn’t!
It’s very much intended to be relatively simple to pick up, and your suggestions are quite frankly, horrible. Yet you’re too ignorant to realise that maybe the issue isn’t with the spec, but your expectations.
Ok, so let’s go. I’m not saying Havoc is not easy to play, because it is. The thing is, Havoc is not exclusively easy to play. Every spec has pretty much the same difficulty curve nowadays, with very few outliers. There are hardly any difficult specs to play nowadays and this is the direction Blizzard has chosen for the game.
Havoc WAS built on the base of simplicity, but now every other spec is just as simple, with some being even simpler. What you proposed was an amalgamation of Shadow, Arms, Rogue/DK on top of having more procs. That’s never going to be a good design.
Havoc’s design is pretty good as it is. Instead of thrashing it and coming up with something else, Blizzard should build on top of it.
I’m a person with an opinion, as I’ve already stated. Not sure what about this is difficult for you to understand.
I understand it’s intended. That’s what’s part of the problem. You haven’t really said anything of value in this thread; you’re really just here bashing me for having a different opinion from you. The point of the thread was to get a feel for how other demon hunters in the community feel about the current class design. Personally, I’m bored out of my mind. I’m not here attacking anyone for their opinion. You should offer the same courtesy.
I agree with you, my ideas were inspired by other class design, but that’s really just because I’m looking for what every other class has - a more synergistic damaging toolkit. I don’t want to be exactly like any other class, but I do want a reasonable amount of abilities in our toolkit, and i want them to work together, rather than being entirely individual abilities with no real interaction.
I agree. That’s the whole point of this thread.
You got mythic logs for your feral ? The best ones have WF and JF check the top 10 mythic azshara dps. I ignore the first boss’s cause ppl can now just ignore most of the mechanics unlike first kills, and the time to kill those bosses is 3 minutes or less. Also moment of clarity is not even good as bloodtalons.
Yes, the best ones do. I never said taking Moment or skipping Wild Fleshrending was the optimal option. Re-read my post. I simply said it was viable, and the fact that there are boss kills in mythic with Moment, and without Wild Fleshrending (and not just a couple, multiple hundreds) is all the proof that’s needed for that statement.
Will you do better DPS, provided you can handle the complexity, by taking BT and WF? You bet. But that doesn’t mean those selections are utterly mandatory, even on mythic, and certainly not below mythic. Too often mythic players get trapped in this mode of thinking that only the absolute optimal setup is at all viable, and it just flat isn’t true, even at the mythic difficulty. It definitely doesn’t apply below that.
Oh, and I didn’t mention Jungle Fury even once, so not sure where you pulled that from.
When a boss is being killed in a short amount of time you can even talent the incarnation/moment of clarity build as there isn’t much dps lost due to short time killing the boss but this will depend on your team members overall dps. But when you take a feral in the beginning to a progression raid then the difference starts to really show. Feral is more about sustained dmg than burst dmg.
Sounds like you like the idea of DH, but not actually playing DH. Maybe it’s time for you to move to monk.
I would rather leave Havoc alone. Outside of Fury Warrior, its the only melee spec where you constantly have a button to push or something to do. Every other spec such as feral, UH DK, FDK, has downtime, resource + DoT management, and resulted in them being shadows of what they should be.
I understand a desire for complexity, but complexity without purpose only serves to frustrate the player and make the class less desirable to enjoy.
Well, you (OP) did ask how other felt about it. Just fine. Plenty of room to tweak and tinker with rotations/etc etc…and STILL be viable. I don’t math hammer the numbers, I just know what works. Havoc works wondrously for me.
There are talent options you can take that change thing up.
Like if you really wanted you could do a dark slash build, which isn’t too bad (single target only)
Dude. you knew this going into the class. its a meme at this point how easy DH are to play. 3 button and near top DPS.
Come to monk, we are fun and have 4 buttons, maybe 5
Actually, we have 5 because Immolation Aura and Eye Beam can have their cooldown reduced significantly with haste and procs. I do believe monks have more than 4 buttons, though. But really, more buttons doesn’t necessarily mean more complex.
As you can see, our current talent system is deeply flawed because there are several dead talents across all classes, which makes for a more boring gameplay for everyone as there may only be 1, 2 if you are lucky, competitive builds using almost all same talents.
Just as an example, Havoc has the following dead talents that absolutely need reworking:
- Insatiable Hunger
- Fel Mastery
- Desperate Instincts
- Cycle of Hatred
- Dark Slash
That’s 7 dead talents that don’t see any play out of memeing around with them. Momentum offers a different and fun game play in some cases, but has the downside of forced movement and using your movement abilities for damage (Fel Mastery has the same problem), which leaves you vulnerable to when you actually need them if you don’t properly plan it, so its a lot of trouble for not as much reward.
There are definitely ways in which they could give us more options if they more work into it, also new abilities coming the next Expansion.
If Havoc is boring to you, go play a different class. Plenty of people like it the way it is now.
Two ability resource types- In most regards, I actually find dual resources to have been not the best of ideas. Yes, they work for some classes, such as rogue where dual resources has been implemented since Vanilla, but for other classes the dual resources made the classes less fun - arcane mage and ret paladin are prime examples. I think adding a 2nd resource would be a horrible idea for Havoc.
Ability proc mechanicsNo. Just freaking no. This game has enough rng, and more than enough rng-based classes. One of the major appeals of Havoc for a lot of people is the lack of RNG in the rotation.
Ability synergyNot everything requires synergy among all abilities and talents to be effective. Having said that, if you play the meta build there is plenty of synergy for the class to be highly effective - one of the most effective in the game right now, actually.
Remove Demon's BiteYou want to remove an ability and replace it with a passive, and then cry about the class needing another ability? This makes no sense to me. Additionally, I have always found Demon’s Blade to be a horrifically boring talent.
An engaging modification to the rotation during burst windows“Engaging” is a highly subjective term, and frankly, I think using the spriest void bolt is a horrible example. Spriests right now, for me, are the absolute least fun dps class in the game specifically because of how their burst window mechanic works. On top of which, with eye beam and meta, we already have a great burst window.
give us another abilityI don’t disagree with this one, but it needs to be something that fits in the with class. One or more of the old Legion artifact traits would be nice.
Give us a baseline proc mechanic.Please, for the love of Bob, no. We do not need another RNG-based class. Adding rng procs always turns a class into an rng class. See: combat/outlaw rogue, enhance shaman, fire mage, arcane mage, frost mage, unholy dk, frost dk, feral druid, and balance druid. I’m sure I’m leaving some proc-based specs out, but all of those classes I mentioned rely too heavily on procs to be fun for a lot of people. Refer to my #2 point.
Give us an additional resource bar.I believe I already addressed this with my first point, but I’ll expand. Too often, adding a second resource to a class has decreased its appeal.
If you’re finding so many basic problems with Havoc, instead of trying to get a major rework for the class, maybe you should go play a different class. We could always use more enhance shammies and ww monks…
Actually we do have a lot of RNG already in the forms of:
- Demon’s Bite generates from 20-30 Fury
- Demon Blades, on top of the random amount of Fury it generates, it has your white hit’s chance to miss and Demon Blades 60% chance to actually proc
- Fel Blade has a chance to reset It’s cooldown
- Demonic Appetite has a chance to proc souls
- Chaos Strike had a 40% chance to refund 20 Fury
Granted you don’t play with all of those at the same time, I’d still argue that’s plenty of RNG already.
This assumes you take certain builds, which I personally don’t because I hate those builds.
In addition, I have compiled a comprehensive list of specs that were made better by adding (or adding more) RNG: