And nobody cares to defend a crapsack world when it’s invaded by monsters.
Warcraft 3’s story was effective because the Scourge/Burning Legion was invading a world that was mostly idyllic, and the pathos of WC3’s ultimately bittersweet ending came from the fact that despite the monsters ultimate defeat, they caused immense and long-lasting damage to a world that was once nice.
Blizzard hasn’t been able to replicate this dynamic ever since because once you nuke a city, nobody cares how many more times you nuke the rubble.
I wouldn’t call AU Grommash redeemed. The Lightbound consisted of past victims of his Iron Horde, and we don’t see AU Grommash undergo any punishment for his crimes leading the Iron Horde (all that fighting back against the demons sounds more like cleaning up his own mess and also trying to save his own skin, not atone for his crimes).
In fact Yrel, the Lightbound leader he fought, was a former Iron Horde slave and lost her sister to his machinations. Yrel vs AU Grom seemed less like a heroic sacrifice on AU Grom’s part and more like Yrel finally getting justice on an old war criminal for all her people had been through. For all the flaws of Yrel’s group, I was rooting for Yrel in that final confrontation.
I agree. Having Yrel go fanatical was terrible writing. It also pushes the Iron Horde and her experiences with them under the rug to push a fanaticism story that has been done to death these past decades.
That also reinforces what Ainhin said about people scoffing at redemption. Rather than dealing with the intellectual and emotion challenge of a story (such as exploring Yrel’s character development or acknowledging that even as a villain she might have a valid point) Blizzard pushed for a short term high provided by vindictive anger assuring the audience of their correctness at Yrel’s expense.
I think it’s kind of this, but I think it’s also that different writers wrote different things, and they all ignored each other.
Though to some degree that worked. At least it did earlier on, when they focused more on writing races, not characters.
The Forsaken and Sylvanas are a good example of this.
Some Forsaken just want to get by and be left alone, others want to be evil.
Are the Forsaken a misunderstood Horde race, or Scourge 2.0?
Well, it depends on who you ask because they’ve been written as both.
You can sort of handwave the inconsistency by adopting headcanon theories, like “Forsaken society considers it taboo to tell others what to do, such that Greg Gravewell has adopted a new name, and disapproves of Emily who hasn’t. Emily Smith has kept her old name and doesn’t approve of the way Greg experiments on the living. But neither of them will confront each other about it. Thus, Emily continues to just try to get by, why Greg is a full on villain, but they’re both Forsaken.”
But ultimately, any societal rule you can come up with about the Forsaken has had contradictions. Though they’re usually not too egregious so long as you don’t try to completely rewrite the faction into a monolith (like Golden’s Before the Storm did).
Contrast this with Sylvanas.
She has been written multiple ways since the start. Whatever people think is “the true Sylvanas” is just their interpretation biased by whatever early (or recent) portrayal was their favorite.
It’s not great when a character is self contradictory this way, but as long as she stays mostly mysterious and in the background it works - Sylvanas can be whatever people want her to be in the background. People will argue about her endlessly, but they’re mostly happy.
It doesn’t work when that character is brought into the spotlight and ends up eclipsing the race’s story (especially if you try to keep the mystery, but that’s another can of worms).
TL;DR
Races can be self-contradictory because they’re not monoliths, but it doesn’t work when spotlight characters are.
As you said, the Forsaken have those inconsistencies because like any race they’re complicated and different people think different things. Ironically though, I think Sylvanas’ character has been consistent from the beginning. At least, her post-cata character. Even during cata, she was acting so much like the Lich King that other characters commented on it. All to avoid damnation.
So aligning with the Jailer to somehow avoid this fate, even if it meant betraying her people (most of whom she probably saw as tools) is a logical choice consistent with everything she had done in the past. But the problem is that it’s too obvious she was being played and she was meant to be far too clever and manipulative to fall for that.
On the topic of villain to hero redemption, would Runas count? He was first introduced amongst the withered feeding off the blue dragon whelps of Azsuna. And then worked with us against the withered, Ael’Yith, and in the end allowed himself to be withered over resuming his attacks on the dragons.
This is one of the reasons why even though WOD was disastrous in terms of contents it was memorable for me in delivering a very clear idea of how formidable the orc and draenei civilizations were.
I felt personally frustrated to walk around Shattrath and see that beautiful city full of demons, I thought the Shatrah residential area was perhaps the most beautiful place in WOW. And I marveled at the beauty of the blackrock foundry and the buildings of the thunderlord clan.
I never understood Blizzard’s obsession with delivering us maps filled with ruins, nuclear explosions, dead civilizations and all sorts of signs of death and destruction. All of this makes me think that the experience that the game offers me is often inferior to what it would be if I had a relationship with a world full of architectural wonders that I felt a burning desire to defend.
More than 20 years after the end of warcraft 3 , we always talk about Lordaeron because simply Stormwind is a horrible city, with an architecture that resembles a bunch of legos. And it makes me a little dismayed to see that pile of houses being a military superpower when you visit places like Suramar or Dazar’alor and come across real architectural gems. When I showed these cities to a friend who doesn’t play WOW he quickly wanted to know more about these two races as he thought they must be the strongest.
And for me this is the effect that a well-made architecture has on anyone who comes across the current warcraft maps, especially when we compare these imposing cities with these maps full of decay.
Blizzard does like doing that for a lot of races to join the horde.
From Night elves spying on the Blood Elves (even though Tyrande almost died ensuring their survival, including Kael’thas Sunstrider)
The Stormwind navy attacking Thrall while the orc was under Earthen Ring protection. The Bidgewater Cartel just happened to be in the wrong place, wrong time
Thalyssra taking Tyrandes doubts of trust way too personally. Given that Tyrande was right in asking her if Thalyssra wouldn’t turn into another Elisande or worse, Azshara. Given that Elisande once stood against the Legion but is now serving them.
Hell, originally you had Alliance soldiers just outright killing the Vulpera during the Alliance assault into Vol’dun.
The only one I could buy is the Night elves spying on the blood elves only if Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isle happens before Eversong Woods and Ghostlands. That way the Alliance forces that washed up on Azuremyst Isle would relay information back to the Alliance about a group of antagonistic Blood elves and how one of their own members was a spy for Kael’thas (that gnone guy). Who [Kael’thas] seems to have sided with the Legion given that the Blood elves were in the company of a Man’ari Eredar. So the Night elves would send scouts to Eversong Woods and Ghostlands. To see if the Blood elves that did not follow Kael’thas to Outland know about Kael’thas’ supposed deal with the Legion and if they are working for them.
But I don’t think we got anything hinting towards that. Instead the Night elves are just there for reasons…
Very true and something I’ve noticed is that most of the Horde races have conflict with the Alliance in their starting zones. However most of the Alliance races lack a Horde presence in their starting zone
To illustrate:
Orc/Troll - Northwatch
Tauren - None, though had dwarf camp pre Cata.
Forsaken - Minor Worgen presence.
Blood Elves - Night Elves
Goblins - Alliance ship attack and follow up quests.
Human - None.
Night Elves - None.
Dwarf/Gnome - None.
Draenei - None.
Worgen - Forsaken Invaders.
Wasn’t this in Darkshore and not Teldrassil? Teldrassil remained mostly untouched except for the finale and the dialogue boxes from the moonwell quest chain when it came to Cata.