Is that the case for the lore item from Harandar that was removed at the same time as well?
Edit: The tablet does not present Zandalar and their telling of history in a favorable light.
correct, also âcanonâ, and will be fixed
BFA hardly painted Zandalar in a favorable light to begin with
But that is the nature of Imperial Core vs Imperial Periphery
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Hence my suggestion that it Trolls came from The Cradle they more likely would have been Haranir, with Zandalar coming later and calling themselves first at the same time as setting Dazar up as king as part of their imperial announcements.
No, because Haranir post-date Trolls and theyâre going to go with Trolls pre-date the Ordering
Having Haranir/Dark Trolls look different is fine given every Troll nation looks radically different
I donât see anything suggesting Trolls predate the Ordering. Nor that Haranir post-date Trolls (ignoring the art book as we are), given what was removed from alpha.
Especially, as noted, Deepwalkers are likely just Aggramarâs Titanforged like the Draenor Magnaron are.
Actually, your charts pointing to Muehâzala looking like a Deepwalker made flesh would make me think, given Muehâzala isnât worshipped in Zandalar, and given we found the Deepwalkers beneath Khaz Algar, which is much closer to present day Tanaris, where Muehâzala still is worshipped, that if Trolls came from Deepwalkers that reached The Cradle that they would have come up out of UnâGoro and into Tanaris, and the spread all across the continent, all the way to the Dragon Isles, far far predating the Zandalari.
The lore tablets imply cultural memory of the Black Empire
and pre-Chronicles CDev lore stated Troll predate the Ordering, and with Chronicles no longer absolute canon like I previously pointed out, it means that piece of lore is back as an option
The Harandar lore kind of, sort of hints at the trolls predating the Ordering. Or theyâre at least as old as the Black Empire is
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The Tarnished Mural says the Haranir had heard tales of the Titans defeating the Old Gods. Though it does not say where they heard those stories from, and if the Titanforged themselves were openly discussing those tales that wouldnât have to have had the Haranir know about the Old Gods before the arrival of the Titans.
And I am not denying that the CDev answer is open as an option. But it is not the only option. And with the changes from that was in the alpha, which we did not see until the beta and likely after the art book had already been sent to printing, Blizzard separated the Haranir and Troll lore more than anything else.
Thatâs one interpretation.
Tarnishes mural says:
While some saw glory in tales of the stone armies banishing the ancient chaos that had covered the old world, we stayed away.
While the Forgotten Mural says:
Never forget the ancient myths.
Never forget the slumbering darkness banished down below.
Never forget the horrors our ancestors met on the great journey.
Never forget what brought us to this new home we call Harandar.
Always remember that we are united by tradition, standing as one.
Guided by the song, for the Goddess who one day may return to her cradle.
Theyâre reciting things they experienced and lived through, meaning they remember the âslumbering darkness banished down belowâ that predates the song of Alnâhara and the subsequent journey.
Meaning they lived through the banishing done by the stone armies.
i.e. they have cultural memory of the Black Empire
Which alligns with the Vanilla Gurubashi Tablets saying Trolls were around to witness a fight between Neptulon and the Old Gods.
The second line here is likely talking about the Old God minions the Haranir encountered on their journey underground shown in the Gulf of Memories Delve quest.
Having met those horrors could have given credence to tales they had heard about the even worse Old Gods that had been banished even further down by the Titans.
Though I do not deny the possibility that the Haranir were around during the Black Empire before the Titans showed up. I donât see anything that says thatâs not a possibility, so could be just as much as not.
As I said, those tablets say the Kraken were around during the times of the Old Gods, not that the Trolls were. Given that the Kraken are servants of Neptulon and Trolls have the Shamanistic ability to communicate with the Elementals, the Trolls could have learned about what the Kraken had experiences that way rather than having been around for it themselves. Or any other way, if Elementals leave historical records around of their own that could be learned from.
They would not repeat the same event twice, so no.
They are two separate events. The Old Gods being banished by the Titans. And the Haranirâs trip down to Harandar, as shown by the Gulf of Memories Delve quest.
You can an interpret it that way if you want, but every event in there is stuff they personally lived through.
If they lived through the Titans banishing the Old Gods, that means they were around during the Black Empire.
So again, no
Or, yes, as you said, it can be interpreted as them hearing about it after the fact.
Especially if the Haranir really did come from Deepwalkers, as the Deepwalkers share the same Aggramar runes as the Magnaron. It is also possible that the earliest Deepwalker we have seen from a Worldsoul Memory was serving the same protective function as the Vrykul were above ground, but better suited for the cavernous depths the Dwarves ended up working down into.
- First Blade Grimskarn yells: You there! Stay away from the working earthen!
- Deepwalker Cavelord yells: You trespass in my domain, for that, you shall pay the price.
Deepwalkers still exist even if some of them became Trolls during the Black Empire
Oh, so do Vrykul still exist even if some of them lead to Humans.
Though I think weâre having some miscommunication. I am saying that the Haranir would not have predated the arrival of the Titans. But if you are only saying they could have predated the defeat of the Old Gods - say if they had turned to flesh even before the Old Gods were defeated - or even just had history passed down from when they were still inorganic - and thus had been around while the Black Empire still was, I say that is entirely possible, yes.
Iâm saying the text allows for that possibility, especially given the pre-Chronicles canon was that Trolls predate the Titans
It is an option. Though, I do not think that it would be an option at the same time as Haranir coming from Deepwalkers. Though, given I donât think Haranir came from Deepwalkers, I cannot deny that the Haranir could have been around from before the arrival of the Titans.
Deepwalkers being elemental constructs created by Elune/Anâshe when they seeded life/light pre Old Gods would work fine
Not with the Aggramar runes they carry, I wouldnât think. Their runes basically indicate they would have identical creation histories as Magnaron, just on Azeroth instead of Draenor.