So notice people do not have the full scope of contradictions and ambiguity on the forum still so just gonna repeat my twitter thread here:
Main story questline
We are told via their Magic Paint Vision they left Mount Hyjal, avoiding being seen by Freya, and after fighting Talos who is following the directive of the “Highfather”, and then later found Kobolds and Nerubians, to arrive at the “cradle” of Aln’hara aka Azeroth who had been taken from her cradle.
Mount Hyjal with Freya but no world tree mention implies it’s early during the Ordering. Remember, we have NO mention of how long the Ordering was really.
Mentioning the Hightfather rather than the Highkeeper likewise implies that the Titans were still around, as the Highfather is Amanthul but the Highkeeper was Ra and then late Odyn
Nerubians and Kobolds don’t give us much details. Nerubians in TWW got confirmed as 100% a Black Empire group than gained independence pre Ordering. Kobolds are thought in-universe to come from Troggs, but there’s no meaningful “confirmation” of such per se.
Titans having taken the world soul happens at an unknown point in time.
We do not know WHEN they developed their Magic Paint Vision shenanigans. We know however that to make the vision paint requires ingredients FROM Harandar, so the magic technique post-dates their arrival. Likewise, from the “A Palette of Feelings” side story, we know that intentionality and perception play into the vision paint, as one of the painters has the memory they tried to capture horrible distorted due to being unsure what to present and represent. However, from the legends of the Haranir quest The Cauldron of Echoes, we know the paint magic was developed by Zur’ashar Sai’aliyo, which confirms to an extent Zur’ashar predate the magic paint stuff even though that’s their main thing now. The questline also confirms she developed the magic AS THE MEMORIES OF THE HARANIR FADED. Meaning that details were already lost when she created the permanence of the memories via pigment and alndust.
The Ancient Runestone during beta stated that specifically early Haranir “resembled a troll” with “primeval kaldorei weapons”, but on live it just depicts a split between the “haranir”.
The Tarnished Mural affirms the Haranir split came AFTER dragons existed, and that there was communication between the “stone giants” and them. However, it also implies a familiarity of the “ancient chaos that had covered the old world”.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Tarnished_Mural
The forgotten mural goes in this direction, giving a sequence of written memory (so presumably BEFORE the magic paint but AFTER pure oral histories) of never forgetting the ancient myths, never forgetting the slumbering darkness banished down below, never forget the horrors on the journey, never forget the new home Harandar. This implies that the cultural memory of the Haranir remembers the “slumbering darkness”, which implies, heavily, that it is the Old Gods. HOWEVER, an alternative interpretation is that this isn’t in order, and they’re instead remembering “Morta’ka”, who is the main antagonist of the Legends of the Haranir questline “The Echoless Flame” and of the side story quest “The Trials of the Shulka”. In-universe, the Haranir remember they fought and trapped Morta’ka, who is a powerful aberration who leads the manifestations from the rift to spread madness in harandar, but they don’t remember where it comes from and in-universe speculation is that they were the first Haranir to fall to madness. This is important because it again implies that by the time they wrote down the memory, they had lost details of what they were even remembering.
The last Derelict Mural was the most controversal in that it said on beta the haranir considered the others they left “lesser trollkind”. Some interpreted this as saying the haranir didn’t consider themselves Trolls, but again, Zandalari consider all non-Zandalari to be “lesser trolls”, “lesser tribes”; it’s more coherent to think that the Haranir considered themselves “superior trolls” same as the Zandalari, ergo Kaldorei attitudes. But regardless ONL LIVE the tablet just says “those who decided to stay on the surface”. But again, there is cultural memory of “the dark sleeping below”.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Derelict_Mural
The art book
The third trainwreck: the art book
Simple as, the Art Book says verbatim “Long ago, after the dark troll settled the Well of Eternity and became the night eleves, those who would eventually become the haranir split from them and journeyed deep below.” This is very clear that the split is from the night elves, as it’s establishing a clear clut sequence of events. Trolls became Night Elves became Haranir.
Caveats and context
Chronicles is no longer absolute canon. And before Chronicles, the original word of god CDev answer for Troll origins was that they predated the Ordering entirely.
“What races were on Azeroth before the coming of the titans?
Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans’ forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as “faceless ones,” and the aqir. Due to the Old Gods’ war against the titans, as well as the extensive terraforming that followed the war’s conclusion, records of what races existed before even the Old Gods’ arrival have likely been lost forever.”
The visions and the tablets implies they were always in Hyjal, and we know that the Titans have “lied” about the Dream. Dragonflight confirmed that Eonar/Freya Ordered the Dream and installed Nymue to maintain that Ordering.
Harandar likewise, the Cradle was already there when the Titans arrived. That means Life was already on Azeroth when the Titans arrived.
The Elun’ahir text stated that Elun’ahir was planted by Eonar after being given to her by Elune herself, but what if that’s wrong and more propaganda? What if Elun’ahir came first? Is the cradle made from Elun’ahir’s roots?
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Elun%27Ahir
Likewise we don’t have a history of when Beledar fell, only that the Emperor of the Arathi had a vision at some point it fell.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Beledar
The eyes of the earthmother short story likewise posits that Elune and An’she were on Azeroth when the Old Gods arrived.
My theory
I think this is all building up to a new timeline putting together pre Chronicles troll/tauren legends, haranir timeline, Elun’ahir, and Titan propaganda themes.
Azeroth is vibing, just a planet with Elements.
Elune and An’she arrive on Azeroth, seed it with Life and Light (Elun’ahir, Beledar), while they’re finishing things up, the Old Gods arrive. Trolls/Tauren come about at this time possibly.
Old Gods establish the Black Empire parallel the Elemental Kingdoms. Pockets of life preserve (Hyjal maybe, Harandar definitely). Black Empire tries to get close to the world soul, but anytime they push someone to do so, they rebel (The Nerubians).
Titans arrive, rip out Elun’ahir, they Order the Dream, they imprison the Old Gods and Elemental Lords, they push propaganda via their Keepers/Watchers, rip out the world soul from her cradle of roots and light causing the Rift of Aln to generate monsters IRL (and possibly, the cause of the Nightmare per se). The Titans ripping out the world soul causes the echo of the song that lead trolls to harandar.
This part especially jumps out at me, as it also lines up with the Titans’ experience with the Earthen. As they got closer to the Worldsoul, they started to develop “defects” and exert their own will.
We also known from The Cauldron of Echoes that the pigments are chaotic on their own when they’re not properly bound:
Zur’ashar Kassameh says: This was no ordinary pigment. The Alndust within began to rage! Chaos spilled forth–the Cauldron of Echoes convulsing as untamed colors took flight.
Sai’alyo yells: No, no, no! This is not how it should flow! The paint is trying to escape! STOMP THEM! Do not let them flee, or they’ll take the stories with them!
Sai’alyo says: Take my power and let it flow through your hands! Call the paint, command it, and return it to the Cauldron of Echoes so that I may bind it with this handprint seal.
Killing the wild paintings is also how we fix the painting that was ruined in A Palette of Feelings.
The Cauldron of Echoes storyline also says that the painting techinque was developed in such a way that pulled memories that the Haranir themselves no longer had from the world itself:
Zur’ashar Kassameh says: The Cauldron of Echoes first belonged to Zur’ashar Sai’alyo. She was no simple artist. She was the bridge to the forgotten.
Zur'ashar Kassameh says: With the paint made within her cauldron, Sai'alyo would put her very soul into the paintings, and finding memories even beyond her own.
Echoes of Our Past--Part 1: Fading History
Our history is fading. None still live who made the journey here, and even their stories are being forgotten. We tell the stories in the night. I paint them on walls, but something is
missing.
With each telling, the stories change. Every eye sees my painting differently. How do we make the experience as immortal as the stones and truthful as the land itself? I have found something new. The dust from from the Rift of Aln is nearly as powerful as the rift itself. Do the paintings come to life, or do we enter the paintings? It seems a bit of both.
The Alndust defies time. I have reached back through artifacts and blood, and found memories of ancestors or places. It touches memories as long as a trace remains. Our time – our history – can be rediscovered.
The paintings are also obviously visually similar to the Worldsoul Memories we have been dealing with in The War Within.
Here are the changes side by side if it is helpful:
Live
alpha
Tarnished Mural
It was in the years that followed the rise of the ancient winged beasts that even we dared not hunt that the stone giants scoured our lands.
We knew of the poison in their ways and so we hid from their watching eyes. While some saw glory in tales of the stone armies banishing the ancient chaos that had covered the old world, we stayed away.
We had no interest in their great halls, or strange rituals. Our people listened to the song that came from within, not to the monotone staccato of their ordered march.
Tarnished Mural
It was in the years that followed the rise of the ancient winged beasts that even we dared not hunt that the stone person came to our lands.
There was poison in his words of finding better lives under the watching eyes of their masters. He tried to purchase us with stories of their armies banishing the ancient darkness that had covered the old world.
We had no interest in his gifts, or his prodding. Who was he to tell us of perfect form when the Goddess is the one who created us? We were perfect then, as we are perfect now.
Derelict Mural
We left the surface as it was time for us to follow the call, to seek the song from the depths, the voice of the Goddess.
There were concerns about what those who decided to stay on the surface would do in our absence. Children, as we saw them at the time.
We knew what lurked in the places of myth. We were venturing into forbidden parts of the ancient world.
Will it still be our concern when they wake up the dark sleeping below? Is it still our world to save when they engulf it with the flames of their curiosity?
Hope is to believe they listened to our warning.
Derelict Mural
We left the surface as it was time for us to follow the call, to seek the song from the depths, the voice of the Goddess.
There were concerns about what the lesser trollkind would do in our absence. Children, as we saw them at the time.
We knew what lurked in the places of myth. We were venturing into forbidden parts of the ancient world when trollkind were in their infancy.
Will it still be our concern when they wake up the dark sleeping below? Is it still our world to save when they engulf it with the flames of their curiosity?
Hope is to believe they listened to our warning.
Ancient Runestone
<This ancient runestone has a carving of several haranir standing on a forested mountain. They look below at another group of haranir following a ball that radiates wave-like energy. The ball is taking them deep underground to a cave filled with many roots.
This carving appears to depict a split within the Haranir society, leading to one group staying on the surface, while the other takes the journey to Harandar.>
Ancient Runestone
<This ancient runestone has a carving of a Haranir’s face looking down at a crescent moon that is facing on its side. Below the crescent are two arrows and a spear, and a figure dressed in what appears to be spiritual and mystical garb raises their hands and tries to reach the weapons.
The carvings are similar to primeval kaldorei weapons, but the figure resembles a troll.>
It should be noted that the art book was presented as narrated in-setting by Liadrin, so - on top of mistakes not often caught before publication by Blizzard’s editorial team - the art book itself can be given the excuse of having Liadrin being misinformed.
I’m not sure The Legend of Elun’Ahir would have been presented as Titan propaganda. Especially given how it presents Aman’Thul and says that information - the surviving roots - were kept from him and the other Titans. Another book that was found at the same time as The Legend of Elun’Ahir was also On the Nature of the Dream, which also called Titan explanations into question, rather than furthering Titan propaganda.
If Eonar did plan Elun’Ahir, the legend says it was done so before the war with the Old Gods war over, so Elun’Ahir’s roots could have made it down to Azeroth’s Worldsoul and made The Cradle before the Old Gods had been defeated and before the Ordering of Azeroth started.
You want the Trolls to not be the origins of Elves
That would be bad for a number of reasons, not least of which giving ammo to the most vile members of the community
It would be best for the Vanilla Lore to be confirmed as canon, Trolls as dating or predating the Black Empire, and Haranir being the Zandali name for Dark Trolls (which we still lack), which are thus the origin of Elves post Ordering.
I do indeed want Trolls to not be the origins of Elves. I do not like the concept that Trolls should be considered an insulting ancestry or presented as inferior.
I don’t know who the most vile members you keep talking about are. Racist twitter posters who openly hate black people? I don’t think they could get away with posting their opinions anywhere with any sort of moderation, even one as limited as what we have here on these forums.
Obviously what I think would be best would be to separate the Trolls and Night Elves and let them each stand on their own.
Mind you, we also disagree on what the origin of Trolls should be, Elemental or Titanforged, but that’s a separate matter.
Yes, but if the Dark Trolls came up from Harandar, only to return to Harandar later, wouldn’t that make them the ancestors of the Zandalari, not the other way around?
Yes, but what I mean is that if the Haranir are presented on Hyjal as Haranir already, not as Dark Trolls, wouldn’t the Haranir be closer to the Deepwalkers than the Zandalari are?
Haranir are Dark Trolls is my point. I am positing that what Harani/Harati means is “Dark Troll” in Zandali. as after 30 years we still don’t have the Zandali term for Dark Trolls alongside Gurubashi, Amani, Drakkari, Farraki, and Zandalari.
The same way Amani look radically different from Gurubashi look radically different from Zandalari
Yes, that is my point. Wouldn’t all Trolls have looked like Haranir at first if the Trolls came from The Cradle? Only for Zandalari to change in appearance later, but then in actuality had come from Dark Trolls, a.k.a. Haranir in their language by your idea.
That is likewise the logic I use for Taloc, rather than the Deepwalkers.
Though what I am saying is that if we do not see an intermediate step between Zandalari to Haranir, Haranir could be the earliest Trolls then, as your timeline does not have a reason for why that would not be.
No, because we know Nazmir/Zandalar general area are the oldest troll settlement
All other trolls migrated from Zandalar
So Haranir come from early Zandalari
The new Amani lore retcons the idea that the trolls dispersed during the Aqir Lore, now it’s that concurrent to Zandalar being established, all the other settlements were established from Zandalar, but before Dazar’alor
The tablet that was removed from the game? If anything is just further showed how Zandalar pushes propaganda to put itself at the forefront of Troll culture, and what Zandalar has described as history may be dishonest in their favor.
Though, yes, Troll origins of Nazmir are why I believe them to be Titanforged from Uldir.