confused look
Here, let me give you the rest of the paragraph that you clipped when you quoted me:
I added bold to the places that you might have missed that should help your confusion.
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anything you do in the game is at ‘your own risk’
you may as well drop the first statement entirely if you follow it up with all the non-extraordinary circumstances in which one would engage in the activity - in a video game
Mythic raid is not meant to be puggable, heroic raid is definately made to be puggable. You will find far more folks agree with this statement.
LFR, normal and heroic dungeons, and all world content is not at all “at your own risk”. It is virtually guaranteed that you will succeed at any of those with no actual risk of ultimate failure. Heroic and Mythic raids and M+ have no such guarantee. A group that isn’t ready for the difficulty could make dozens or hundreds of attempts and never succeed.
They are both made for organized groups. Heroic is more easily puggable, but that is not the design intent.
You will find there is zero value in what more folks agree or disagree with. Things are correct and incorrect based on facts, and the ability for a crowd of people to identify or not identify those facts has no bearing on whether something is correct or incorrect.
and the fact remains that its overwhelmingly and widely accepted that MYTHIC raids are not puggable whereas heroic is.
full pug heroic runs on week 1 are a thing, not so much for mythic, ie: see RWF. That is IF you want to discuss what is ‘by design’. I doubt you are a wow raid dev. If you can pull up a quote of a recent raid dev saying heroic raid is not made to be puggable then I will eat my words, but for now, by simply looking at whats been happening in game, you made that up.
I was merely pointing out the fact you wrote a statement you yourself debunked in the same post and following posts.
Okay? Who cares? That has nothing to do with anything, and besides, there are mythic pugs so…
I don’t have to be part of an airplane design team to know that commercial airliners are intended to carry passengers. They also carry freight sometimes, but that doesn’t turn them into cargo planes.
It should be blistering obvious that group content is designed around organized groups, but here:
The link is for the source thread so you can see context if you want it.
No. Again, obviously raid content is designed for organized groups. The fact that people choose to pug it doesn’t mean that is what it’s being designed around. People are free to engage with the content in any way that they want to, but the people making it are designing encounters around groups that have organization, communication, and addons.
This can be contrasted with something like LFR and LFD that is equally obviously designed around the lowest common denominator of randomly formed groups.
I’ve seen people use the grip end of a screwdriver to hammer a nail, and just because it worked doesn’t mean that is part of the design intent of a screwdriver.
1: you conflate ‘not for pugs’ with ‘organized groups’, and ignore that pugs can in fact, organize themselves with basic text communications, which has been the case for heroic raiding for years.
2: I have no idea how the ‘link’ you provided supports your claim that heroic raids were not designed for pugs.
Might I remind you of the first thing I quoted from you:
which you then followed up by a contradiction on top of a new claim about design intent.
Sometimes, the argument just isn’t worth it. I think this is a classic example of digging your heels into a position so deep that you think anything I say is an attack on your character.
Relax man, heroic raiding is for pugs, and that’s ok.
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Pugs are not organized groups. The more organization they employ the more successful they will be, but they will never be a weekly organized group.
You’re conflating the fact that people can pug heroic with the idea that heroic is for pugs. Those things aren’t remotely the same.
I’ll bold the part that you’re having trouble with.
Organized multiplayer = organized groups = not pugs. Raiding = raids.
Thanks, it still stands true.
It’s not at all a contradiction. Heroic isn’t for pugs. Heroic is puggable, and much more easily puggable than mythic. The point I have stated over and over again is that just because it’s puggable doesn’t mean that pugs are the primary audience it’s being designed for. This is plain English. It may be nuanced, but it should be straightforward enough to comprehend, especially with the wide variety of descriptions, clarifications, and illustrations I’ve used to demonstrate the point.
It really, really is, you’re just lacking the self awareness to attribute this to yourself.
You can repeat this as many times as you want, but it will never be true. Heroic raiding is for organized groups, and people are welcome to pug it, and many do. Many do it successfully as well, but they aren’t the people that it is designed around.
The difficulty is fine, if it was spread more equitable. 10 man having the same number of soak requirements as 15+ is not fair. Not all of us like to HAVE to pug groups, some of us want to play with our select group.
edit:
Meant to reply to the person you’re replying to, my b.
L take. This isn’t 2007
What does 2007 have to do with heroic being designed with organized groups in mind, pugs being able to use discord, or pugs being able to coordinate without voice comms?
If you have an actual argument to make go ahead, but your post has zero substance…
I have a question for you, which group do you think runs, reruns, runs their alts and completes heroic raids more. ‘organized group’ (guilds?) as you would define them or pugs, throughout a season?
It’s really not that hard to understand for anyone with deductive reasoning. Try using a few of those cells to the north and you may finally figure it out.
I have a question for you. Why do you think the answer to that question, for which you’ve presented no data incidentally, has any bearing on the actual design intention?
You’re still stuck in this bizarre loop of “if people can pug it, then it must be for pugs.” This isn’t a valid conclusion and continuing to use it to prop up your point isn’t working.
The only thing thing that is actually relevant is there was no discord in 2007, but voice comms were still available, so that seems like a pretty pointless quibble. The rest is as relevant in 2025 as it was in 2007.
When you learn what deductive reasoning actually is, then you can come back to try to condescend to me. Until then, adults are talking right now.
See if you cared about answering the question, you would of realized that it is virtually impossible to track the millions of heroic pug runs that are done throughout a season.
And for you to say that out of all these runs, which happen day-in, day-out, night, evening, morning, afternoon (not working on a fixed 1, or 2 day raiding guild schedule) and all these players (anywhere from 10 to 30 players in a pug heroic), that specific content is not designed for them or with them in mind is an absolute L take.
How hard do you think it is really to get in a pug, and organize your group right then and there IF ITS EVEN NEEDED - which oftentimes IT’S NOT EVEN NEEDED and you know this because you said yourself that you’ve pugged many times successfully. After week 3 in a season, comms in heroic raiding is BARELY needed and when it is, its sorted in 2 minutes via … the chatbox (not discord).
So yes you are wrong, you are not a dev, and if you were, you would know that the only content in WoW which gives, as per your quote, the STRONGEST LOOT, are M+ over 10s, rated pvp over some high rating (idk i dont pvp) and … drumroll… MYTHIC raiding.
FYI, heroic raid does not, in fact, give the strongest loot
cheers mate
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And you are?
Again, it should be obvious that group content is, surprise surprise, designed around groups.
Individual players are welcome to group up together and attempt any of the group content that is created, but they aren’t the people it’s designed for. I really don’t understand why you’re having so much trouble with this.
I see you’ve decided to now move the goalpost, on top of adding a touch of gaslight at the end there, that’s pretty lame IMHO.
So now we are talking about group content ? I thought this was about ‘organized groups’ by your definition?
You chose this.
Can you tell me again how the blue quote you used supports your argument? --Now that we’ve cleared the air about the strongest RAIDING loot coming from MYTHIC raiding (which is designed for organized group 
)
Um…what? I haven’t said anything that I haven’t been saying all along.
We’ve been talking about group content the whole time. Are you okay?
Are you actually getting hung up on the fact that I didn’t use the word “organized” lol?
I already did, but sure, let’s hold your hand though this. In the blue post I linked, Rated PvP, Mythic Keystone dungeons, and raiding were all identified as “organized multiplayer endgame progression paths”. They are for groups. People can pug any or all of them, but the design intent is for groups, as stated in the blue post.
We did no such thing. You, in a continuing bid to preserve your absurd delusions of your infallibility, attempted to muddy the waters by taking the quote out of context and misapply it to make you appear more right.
The quote doesn’t apply to Mythic raiding in specific, any more than it applies to M+10 more than +2 or glad level pvp more than untitled MMR. It is contrasting the entirety of the endgame pillars against outdoor world content and professions.
Stop trying to bend the world around the way you want things to be and just accept them the way they are.
It’s pretty wild to try and gaslight someone on a forum.
gaslightning: manipulation of someone into questioning their own perception of reality.
Now that’s out of the way.
No, I am concerned with the fact you are moving the goalpost. You said heroic raiding aren’t for pugs and aren’t designed for pugs. Now you are talking about group content, which can include such activities as broad as normal dungeons, world bosses, ‘elite’ world quests. You are moving the goalpost.
What does moving a goalposts mean in this circumstance:
changing your arguement to avoid conceding that you might have been wrong.
In the blue post you linked, it is said that ‘‘the strongest loot in WoW comes from the 3 organized multiplayer endgame progression paths: rated pvp, mythic keystone dungeons and raiding.’’
I then kindly explained to you that heroic raid pugs have 0 problems clearing the content using basic communications tools provided in game; the chatbox.
And not only that, but the ‘strongest’ loot from raiding actually comes from Mythic raiding, not Heroic raiding.
The fact is it is very easy to pug heroic, it is not very easy to pug mythic.
Oof. I guess by that logic let’s go wild and say normal raiding isn’t designed for pugs either.
I am not sure what you are going through in life, and I am sorry if it sucks. You said things that aren’t true, things that are easily debunked and I tried to respond in good faith (aside from the clown emoji I’ll admit). You are having a very negative reaction to a pretty stupid thread all things considered.
You could have admitted that you aren’t a dev (I am fairly certain you are not) and you do not know for a fact that heroic raiding isn’t designed with pugs in mind, it could of ended there, but you decided to go nuclear.
Nevertheless, the truth of the matter remains this simple fact: mythic raiding is the raiding component of the game that is specifically designed for ‘organized group’ and NOT PUGS (see RWF) AND provides the highles level of loot from raiding.
Heroic raiding is for scrubs and tryhards (like me) who don’t care whos in their group as long as the boss dies.
Here is a very basic breakdown of a PUGGED heroic boss encountert:
lead: odd groups left, even groups right
player 1: wtf we wiped
player 2: yo why is X, Y and Z doing tank damage?
players X, Y and Z have been kicked from the raid group.
overgeared players A, B and C have joined the raid group (because they want the trinket )
lead: go again
Boss dies.
This exact scenario happens countless times everyday, and those mfers are going to log into their alt and do the same exact thing again, with a bunch of randoms.
Heroic raiding is very accessible and is definitely designed with pugs in mind.
Thank you and sorry, what an immense waste of time this has been.
It is…so why?
Pretending I asked about gaslighting when I pretty clearly addressed the “moving the goalpost” charge. It’s all here in writing. So why gaslighting?
FFS, I used different language. It should be pretty obvious in context that “group content” means rated PvP, M+, and raids. It’s not moving the goalpost. It’s you continuing to be pedantic and quibbling over nonsense to avoid dealing with the fact that you’ve been wrong the whole time.
Which still doesn’t matter.
It’s not. It’s designed for friend groups who aren’t concerned about serious progression. That was literally how they billed it when it was released as Flex in Mists. Yes, people can and do pug it. No, that is not the primary design intent.
Everything’s actually pretty good except for this dude on the forum who asserts that heroic is made for pugs despite the fact that it isn’t and is having trouble grasping that people can do things outside design intent.
I always have a negative reaction to people who are factually incorrect, and it gets worse when they get smug about it. Lose the condescension and I will be much less negative. Stop being wrong and I’ll stop being negative altogether.
Seriously? You need me to “admit” I’m not a dev??? So you have difficulty with lots of obvious things?
Now who’s moving the goalposts? Of course they’re aware that people pug raids of all difficulties. So in that context, yes, they have pugs in mind. But pugs are not the intended audience the raids are designed around, and they don’t balance the raid around X number of randos grouping up together. The bosses are designed for organized groups, and individuals are free to group together and do whatever they’re capable of.
I know this because it’s obvious, but also from years of reading the forums and news and notes, and no, I can’t single instances buried in 15 years of forum posts.
This is true.
No, heroic is for groups who aren’t as skilled or competitive as mythic groups. The easier difficulty also means it’s easier for pugs to access as well.
Lol, still no.
You aren’t kidding.