Guardian is absolutely garbage in M+


#23

VDH is garbage too. If a mob so much as farts in my firection in the 60% window that I don’t have DS up, I die.


#24

They very least, and I mean straight up LEAST Blizzard should do for Guardian is make Frenzied Rejuv do 24 percent like IT SAYS ON THE IN GAME TOOL TIP.


(Mêphiston) #25

Prot War isn’t bottom of the barrel, it’s top 3 at worst, and has arguably the best tank damage in the game. You’re clueless.


(Naros) #27

This one is tricky because our damage throughput is directly proportional to the number of mobs we have available to attack. The more mobs that are attacking us, the more rage we can generate, the more damage and threat we can do.

While our tank damage for single target is lower than Warrior/Paladin/DK, we can actually push higher single target damage than Monks and Demon Hunters if you favor appropriate traits.

But that brings me to a point someone made later in the thread.

One of the larger design problems with Guardian is that our threat and damage throughput is more directly related to our Azerite choices, more than I would say any other tank faces. This means we’re at a disadvantage from the start, having to decide whether to focus on defensive or offensive traits.

Patch 8.1 was to be a turning point for those types of decisions, more choices meant that more gear would be better suited for classes and those restricting binary choices but be less punishing. I’d say 8.1 opened up some additional azerite drops being useful with at least 1 preferred trait, but the idea of getting a piece that has your 2 or 3 best traits you can interchange is still abysmal – typically consisting of 1 (possibly at most 2) pieces out of 6-8 that you actually want.

I have played with Vortex some in M+ and I believe its extremely niche. I have played so long with Wild Charge, I feel naked trying to play without it. Honestly, it would be more advantageous if Blizzard made Wild Charge baseline and gave us some other utility that made more logical sense to compete with Vortex.

I honestly didn’t see FR anymore powerful than the self healing that DK and DH could do during M+ during Legion. In fact, there were several instances my group had that our VDH tank was able to solo the last 10-15% of a M15+ Tyrannical boss due to their insane self healing whiel the rest of us were dead.

That said, they wanted to differentiate Bear self healing from that of a DK.

The problem is the dungeon design doesn’t account for our limited access to that heal and we’re at the mercy of the healer. If the healer fails, we fall over.

A great example of this is the Shadow of Zul in King’s Rest on Fortified week.

It actually does; what trips up most people when reading the data points is that the actual heal over time ticks 4 times on use, at 0, 1, 2, and 3 second intervals. We actually get a 6% heal immediately with the remaining 18% over the next 3 secs.


(Lockedheart) #28

except theres a limit to how much we can tank before we fall limiting dmg.

bears are pretty squishy (out of all tanks at start of a pull they are using base armor values)

it is VERY niche.

It was likely during the time we still had MoU.

Bears with 4+ stacks of IF and MoU on top of Legions FR meant using it after a ton of dmg then stacking dmg mitigation meant you healed up tons while reducing dmg taken during it.

I have said it before… Legions FR was designed for BFA tanking, while BFA FR was made for Legion tanking. (as they fit what a bear dealt with)

[quote=“Naros-earthen-ring, post:27, topic:71964”]
That said, they wanted to differentiate Bear self healing from that of a DK.
[/quote] yet VDH is closer to BDK than guardians while their rotation of it actually is fluid xD

do ppl actually think it does?

could it be becasue they never see 1/4 of hp filled up becasue they take mroe dmg than it heals?


(Naros) #29

They can be; but they’re not alone in that category.

I would say it takes a Death Knight, Guardian druid, and Warrior approximately an equal number of globals (Guardian being the worst here) to activate their full mitigation potential and most of that is due to how Rend and Tear works in conjunction with the 3 thrash stacks.

What gives Monks, Paladins, and Demon Hunters a significant advantage to on pull mitigation is the fact their mitigation requires no upfront resource. Their mitigation is entirely charge based and can be accessed on/prior to pull.

Once that initial pull is out of the way though, most tanks work in a similar way. The less downtime you have between pulls, the more optimal certain active mitigation concepts become.

What I do think Guardian druids take for granted is the fact with Resto Affinity, you can apply self heals to yourself prior to the pull atop of whatever healing your healer class can apply. While those heals may not be substantial, its still far more than what a Death Knight or Warrior can do.

I can see that point and I can agree with it on some level; especially when you begin to push content that pushes heavily on your gear level.

That isn’t the whole problem though.

I also believe a number of the Guardian druids that remain do not understand how to effectively use FR; they want to treat it a recovery mechanism like we had during Legion and then come to the forums to complain when they believe its ineffective and weak.

I’d surmise that is because FR isn’t mean to be used like it was in Legion at all.

Frenzied Regeneration is meant to activate a smoothing buffer for damage, much like how Stagger works for a Monk. It’s something that when you reach a specific health percentage based on the pull size or content difficulty, you use to buffer/smooth incoming damage so its managable for the healer.

In short, FR is no longer a health recovery tool except on trivial content.

Where this comes full circle is when the content is beyond your gear and the damage smooth that FR is intended to provide isn’t sufficient; even when used optimally.

This when we have to resort to things like kiting, using LoS to avoid casts while dps slowing burn mobs and we avoid damage, etc. But those techniques obviously require more time and planning and impact the bottom line in the content where these strats must be used to begin with.

There has to be a better breaking point for FR; they just haven’t found it yet imo.

Sure that’s possible.

But I’d also surmise that could be problematic for players who aren’t focusing on versatility in their gear as much as they should. Frenzied Regeneration will be garbage on challenging content without the right amount of versatility – period.

When the expansion started, I struggled to maintain a decent amount of vers in comparison to other stats. Most of my gear was predominately crit/haste mixed with mastery with some versatility thrown here or there and I can say doing challenging content – FR felt bad.

I now run between 13%-15% vers and FR is definitely far more potent and if your healer tracks FR buffs on the tank and doesn’t clip it; you can easily do between 15-20k hps on yourself when you use one charge.

But again this comes back to knowing when to aptly use FR now as well.

Now I don’t believe Guardian is perfect and I do think it needs attention, certainly far more than the developers have elected to give it throughout alpha and beta relative to the attention they’ve given other tank specs.

Hopefully we’ll see some soon; otherwise I’m pretty sure they’re going to have to make Guardian out the butt OP next expansion to remotely fix the damage this expansion has done to the spec in the larger picture.


(Lockedheart) #30

i agree, on this and i wish it actually acted more like stagger (as stagger has scaling relevant no matter the content height).

this is anothero f my gripes.

the effort to result ratio isnt balanced for guardians well.

one of the least mobile tanks (kiting itself is a chore if your group has no slows might as well not bother), extremely limited in cc (especially ranged silencing), and utility…exists, but its nothing special.

mhmm.