Guardian is absolutely garbage in M+


#1

Look I love playing bear more than the next tank, I played a ton of it last expansion and it was great. It felt as if I brought something to the table just like most other tanks did. But good God this spec is terrible man.

  1. Piss poor damage I shouldn’t top dps charts but my blood dk does sizeable damage and never has issues with keeping threat. Holding aggro on a bear druid is awful considering growl has an 8 sec cooldown

  2. Ursols Vortex is useful at times but not having an on demand slow makes some affixes 10x worse. This leads into my next point

  3. Frenzied Regen, why on earth was this gutted? Was it that overpowered that you made bears rely so heavily on their healers with dungeons that are brutal as it is?

  4. Iron Fur vs Maul. Now having a decent amount of uptime on Iron Fur is what makes druids useful in raids however this forced choice between makes no sense. Maul cost way to much for oh so little. Unless the target is casting a spell why would you ever use Maul?

  5. The entire affinity talent line. I’m sure someone out there will disagree with this completely but back in legion we had artifact weapons that compensated for the lack of anything the talent tree offered. Now 10 levels later no new talent row and we still have these? They’re wonderful for leveling but offer way less than what other tanks bring at max level. It’s to the point where it become more situational than practical

There’s so much more I want to bring up but what hasn’t been said already so many months in?


(Lockedheart) #2

this isnt anything new.

Prot War and Guardians are bottom of the bucket for a reason.

BFA doesnt favor their style of tanking.

they lack proper healing, dmg, and other stuff specific to them.

every “good” tank (as in all but those 2) have good self sustain.

Then it comes down to Talent co-op. Look at VDH for example as to how talents SHOULD be done.
Baseline…VDH is bland and they are weak. HOWEVER the talents fix this. fracture, especially spirit bomb, and soul shield (or w/e its called).
It turns a spec from “ok” to strong.

Monk have stagger which is their defining point (if u know how/when to clear it then your golden)

Pally and BDK are extremely self healing.

Prot warriors and Guardian lack: self sustain (FR doesnt work considering its 2 charge, 30+sec refresh, a weak heal overall, and rage is not free while warrior one iirc only procs if u kill soemthing) and in bears case: mitigation.

not familiar really on what it would take to fix prot war other thansome form of heal or a stronger absorb shield…but bears start a fight with base armor. This means they get HURT for first few seconds of a fight. then healer has to play catchup.
IF is a strong AM, but its also weak when your unable to stack it. (due to small rage income to cost) and magic damage…well yeah gl vs that as a bear <_<…

yes >_<
Legion guardians were practically gods in PvE and PvP becasue they had massive defense and FR healed based on the dmg you recently took…(which means u take a ton of dmg, pop a DR and heal back while takign less dmg)

If game stayed like Legion yes FR needed nerfed…but devs forget that BFA content is NOT Legion content. a flat % heal on charge based would work on Legion bears, but BFA bears are more in need of FR from Legion.

its there for rage dumping. the dps is just bonus (even prot warriors have their form of rage dump)

i will take this 1 step further…Guardian talents, not just affinities, are bad.
Sure 1 or 2 actually work well, BUT the rest? they are random and have no REAL impact…let aloen do they cover areas bears NEED help in. (like VDH do)
There is very little synergy between Guardian druids and their talents.

Here is a TL;DR on how to (possibly) fix bears specifically.
Play a guardian at optimal build. (so you have soemthign to compare to)

Play a VDH w/o optimal talents. Then play a fracture/spirit bomb/soul barrier VDH.

You will feel how much better it is when talents actually have synergy with your tank class.
You will feel how much better it works when talents fill in those areas you normally lacked in.

Bears need a talent re-work so they build on the tank aspect rather than dmg or gimmicks.

unless something drastic changes liek this Bears will not do well with current content and sit as “low end” like prot war who CAN do the ocntent, but work harder for little payoff.


(Bull) #3

I would not argue for Vengeance talents as a guide, we basically only have one build as our talents are either really good (fracture, spirit bomb) or never taken. What makes this worse is if you do not like fracture and spirit bomb you are forced to play them. Vengeance is also bottom of the barrel for raids, and not far off for high level keys.

edit: Bears need buffs and there have been a ton of good posts on how to do this, I was just pointing out you dont want to be in the same situation as VDH.


(Svenska) #4

Monks don’t really have sustain. Its a death by a thousand cuts. No healer, we will die eventually. Stagger only delays the inevitable.

I agree though, bears are in bad shape and that’s why I don’t play mine anymore.


#5

i will say though a friend of mine plays brewmaster and i’m shocked the amount of damage they put out. i don’t know their playstyle but i assume they have some slow and if not a great sense of mobility with rolls


(Svenska) #6

Keg smash has a snare on it.

Mobility is top notch.

I rerolled monk. The difference was amazing. Tanked a 9 at 350 ilvl soon after hitting 120. My bear would have gotten wrecked.


#7

You’re wrong about Prot. Bottom 2 right now is DH/Bear.

If the argument is sustain, monks take the most damage of any tank and don’t have much in the way of self healing. Still a top tier tank. Prots also have the highest aoe damage of any tank atm. Prot warriors are pulling 17k average dps in mythic plus runs and one of the smoothest raid tanks to heal in melee heavy encounters. Couldn’t read on after this cment though.

That said, bears do need some help.


(Lecro) #8

The 1068 Guardian feedback post that was open since beta covers all these issues ad nauseum. At no point did Blizz provide any feedback regarding the gutting of guardians and complete lack of dev time upon losing artifacts. Guardians literally suffered a net loss in utility from Legion to BfA.

thread: Guardian Druid Feedback


(Tadpo) #9

Monks have done well this expansion for one reason and one reason only - the majority of our artifact weapon traits were rolled in baseline for the specialization. Remember the beginning of Legion when monks were still unlocking those traits/didn’t have them and were utterly destroyed in most content? That’s where the other tanking classes are right now, because the Azerite armor system doesn’t even come close to replacing those passives AND you’re absent secondary stats on those slots. As much as they are saying right now that they didn’t build our characters to need the artifact weapons, back at the beginning of Legion they were assuring us things would get better because we do need them and would get them eventually. I saw the writing on the wall in regards to how this development team is working things, and that’s why I pushed my monk instead of my druid for BfA.


#10

I flip between Bear and Protadin and the loss of core utility in bear form is crippling.

  • Yes, paladins talent for their slow but it’s almost constant on their core spell that activates their mastery anyhow. Thrash needs a baseline 20% like Heart Strike and Thunderclap provide.
  • Cleanse can be cast while tanking for paladin, but not in bear form for reasons…?
  • Affinities offer only a passive and some bonus spells that can’t be cast in bear form. Why can’t affinities actually give us a new ability in bear? Let us be a cat-bear for higher ST dps, Moon-bear for aoe dps, tree-bear for survivability…
  • We need to discuss gcd because FR on the gcd feels absolutely atrocious and interrupts our flow… on top of having to wait a gcd to react to damage intake and then again after that button is pushed to regen (while still getting hit) and can’t even push our next attack yet. Waiting almost 3sec to heal back from a big hit is terrible. Protadin’s heal is on the gcd too but heals instantly.
  • Bear animations need some work - swipe swipe swipe and the occasional lunge bite is boring af. We need a baseline dps cooldown like Rage of the Sleeper or Berserk… We need some more variety to animations.
  • We need some baseline attack rework… Maul competes for our survivability and doesn’t do enough damage to be worth the button push… Swipe is a weak Thrash without the dot aspect… Mangle and Moonfire are single target and still don’t hit as hard as Judgement or Avenger’s Shield that also provide MORE utility on top of higher damage. Some more interplay and utility on our core rotation could help.
  • Damage is pitiful… why? Legitimately sad that 12% was given but they could have done 20% or even 30% just as easily… why does my Protadin do a solid 2-3k more dps than bear? We’re almost the same ilvl… pushing Maul isn’t acceptable since SotR does damage on top of being active mitigation…

(Ieatsquirrel) #13

We have to talent into our big damage cd, and we lose 2 gcd’s while doing so, so I can watch my bear rear up in utter silence after all the times they have me growling at apparently nothing.


#14

Going by top 10 IO scores for the spec, the worst 2 tanks are bear and paladin (could make an argument that it should be bear & bear to express how bad it is).

Maul is for soloing, or maybe if you are at rage cap and there is only 1 or 2 non-dangerous mobs left in the pull.


#15

Just for fun, I went and tried out my guardian in some M+ :slight_smile:

I mainly play boomkin but like to fool around on guardian :slight_smile:

I was able to hit considerably hard when I stacked 3x Wild FleshRendings, and did some +6/7 underrot and finished with 12.5k dps

The only catch is I could feel “ohh crap moments” here and there but I feel like if I ran tankier talents/traits this would solve the issue but create other issues (i.e. become tanky but lose damage, which loses aggro and goes back to druids lack of aggro issues :frowning:)

It sucks a bit because most other tanks get good enough damage and aggro for free, meanwhile we have to make sacrifices for this, I can only imagine what would happen on a skittish week if you were rocking defensive traits and talents to push a much higher key.

Then again comps can balance this out :slight_smile:, I hope guardian gets some buffs to help them in “Ohh crap” moments because our heal went from life saver to “meh” to “its something with 3 heal traits” :slight_smile:

I’m sure there are plenty of better bears than me, I’m just trying to make the best of the current situation until bears get the buffs they deserve :slight_smile:


(Lecro) #16

Today (1/30/19) there are class tweaks on MMO-C for the newest patch build. Under druid…not a single change for Guardian. Feral, Boomkin & resto, check. This was the same for 99% of the updates since alpha. When the old class dev team passed the torch to this current hires, did they forget to tell them that druids have 4 specs? Given the empirical evidence from IO & W-Logs, how can this be justified? Guardian needs (previously baseline) utility [fearbreak, dps CD, aoe snare, minor magic mitigation CD, cleanse/heal/cc in form), a dps increase, and some additional love to be part of M+.


(Ieatsquirrel) #17

I just do low level bgs on a few twink guardians now.

“I hate twinks, I hate tanks, get out of this bg.” Said no one ever.

More like, “We have a druid, tank, a TWINK! Yeah!”


#18

Blood DKS are fine, they need to buff other tank specs.


(Nightsage) #19

I actually agree, if you are having fun with a spec, there is no reason to nerf and they should buff other tanks. However, they are too slow or not interested in doing so. BDK has been king of mythic plus tanking for this expansion so far and thoughout most of legion. Bears have been the worst mythic tank in legion and continue to be the worst now and be poor(dead last) in raids now and in the middle for the later 1/2 of legion (top in nighthold only)…how the hell is that fair. Prot warriors were fixed. DH need fixing. Other tanks seem to be fine.


#20

Buff vengence/guardian. Nerf absurd prot warrior damage (decently geared 100k+ dps spikes on m+ trash). Prot paladin feels to average at everything and their utility is only good in very specific situations.


#21

No thanks. Warriors only have damage to compete. Our utility skills are fear, stun, minor oh crap temp health buff and (optional) stun.


(Crazyirish) #22

It amazes me how bad guardian is at holding threat. Our guild off tank is a Druid and I often need to either wait a few seconds before attacking or throttle down for a little while or I take Aggro for however long is left on the cool down on growl.