Its ironic that you tell someone to add something intellectual to the discussion while simultaneously thinking that 220 days played is some sort of accomplishment or measure of knowledge.
But if it is, then your opinions carry no weight here and should be disregarded as I have over 363 days played on my bear.
Ps. Prot IS FOTM. Doesn’t matter if you’ve only ever played one. Its still FOTM.
Thats fair, I should have just ignored
I dont think days played is an accomplishment you are right about that, I stated that because he called me a FOTM prot war to show that I have played one for quite some time through all various expansions and levels of power.
Yes Prot is FOTM, but he was inferring that I was an unskilled player who only played the prot war because it was FOTM and that is why my dps was below his “proper parses”. Now i am no dynamo by any stretch, but I am certainly a capable player. Most of my comments have been my exp playing both druid and prot war, so its not like i am a super skilled druid and a bad prot war, tanking is tanking for the most part and my skill level on both is prob similar. I have noticed that druid is def higher DPS in both AOE situations and single target . I am only giving my view on the current state of druid tanks and my opinions that are relevant to the topic. I realize that players doing 15-20 keys as druid are having a different experience and my opinion may change as I progress in keys.
Look, theres 3 big issues with prot right now:
Their shield block uptime and block amount is very high.
Their passive mitigation is very high because they weren’t really balanced around having 90% SB uptime. (Very high armor and defensive stance).
Spell reflect is nearly busted levels of good on just about every boss and every pull, because blizz made all the dangerous tank busters this xpac magic. And some of them aren’t steppable.
Those 3 are really the main offenders. Do an 18 SBG on fort (The easy one!) and tell us how almost all that trash feels once you’re left with no DR CDs and only have healing.
Edit: I’m seeing this through the lens of someone doing 16-18 range on Gdruid and now 15s on prot warrior. But those three things might not be problems with prot, but problems with Gdruid instead. We have a crappy mitigation (armor stack) for this season. We have really low passive mitigation to compensate for the fact we can potentially get armor stacked high. And we have bad magic DR cds (because we are using those CDs to just survive in general and less to react to incoming tank busters).
okay have fun doing +10 keys for the next 2 years lol
Weak logic. Implied “bear is easier so it should be worse”. Monk is harder so it should be better then, right??
Every spec should be fairly easy to pick up, and it’s up to clever encounter design to make it difficult to master. Knowing the fights and when to use which skill is what creates a sense of mastery. Keeping up IP and SB an entire run doesn’t really make a point of mastery – the mastery comes from understanding the limitations and affixes and maximizing your play around it. Virtually nothing to do with a class kit.
DH could be called an entry level DPS but they still far outclass some much more complex models.
It does get really annoying when people justify bear being bad because its “easier to play”.
Especially since rn it really isnt all that easy to play anymore becauae they are so squishy. Id say prot warrior is by far the best noob tank rn.
I play prot warrior and Gdruid around the 15 and 17 key range respectively. All of shadowlands bear felt very simple. Do mild pulls until incarn is up, then omega pull. Rinse and repeat.
Bears don’t feel that much simpler anymore. Bears and warriors feel pretty close in the basics: Keep your active mitigation up as much as possible. But right now a warriors “default mode” is already a bear with barkskin and ironfur popped (if they run in defensive, which they usually dont right now because they don’t have to.)
After that it’s “Now use your CDs to live”. Warriors have more options here, but those options feel like extra control. And its not rocket science to use most of them.
When block uptime was low, I’d say warrior was more advanced. These days? Not to a huge degree. And they definitely aren’t harder, in the sense that they start off having an easier time even if all you do is watch your shield block uptime.
Im kinda not liking the whole use cds or die style bear is in right now. Its a bit awkward and annoying, makes ironfur feel ecen less interesting and it was already very boring tank mitigation.
Yes, the bear tank is designed to be entry level tank that is easy to pick up and play, when you invite a bear tank into the group you know what you are getting because the variance in skill level in minimum. You invite a monk or blood Dk and its either a great tank that knows what they are doing or a horrible one that doesnt.
Bad logic is declaring druid tanks are bad because prot war is better. Druid tanks are so good they were nerfed 2 weeks into the expansion along with all other tanks. I just did a raidfinder and was first overall in damage, damage taken, and healing at ilevel 386. Granted its raidfinder so who cares but to say druids are in a bad place is just flat out wrong, they are in a good place just not as good as prot war.
Sorry, I’m pretty sure now you don’t actually have experience with bear tanking at anything past a 15. If you try to “not know what you’re doing” this season on bear you won’t stay up even past a couple seconds going into a pull.
I think saying bear is an entry level tank is super disingenuous anyway. It’s already a pretty flimsy argument. Then you follow it up with statements like ‘minimal variance in skill level’ etc. Sorry, you’re full of it.
I have not tanked 15s yet with bear that is true, only up to 14 and already have encountered issues on fortified where there are packs (in SBG mostly) that can drop me in a two globals. I started rooting on pull to soft CC, that worked. Sorry I didnt think to do what your solution is, go cry on the forums
Because you haven’t done anything even remotely hard yet. That’s why.
tell that to a monk, the fact that it doesnt get hard for bear until 16 or 17 proves my point
I entirely disagree. Bear right now requires very good defensive use and cd timing to do well.
There is a massive massive difference beteen a good and bad bear player.
What are you arguing here? That warrior is fine? That bear is fine? That monks feel like things get hard sooner but they are still fine?
The goal post moving is insane and I think you’re just here to troll. You’ve got people in much higher content than you telling you bear has a problem and your rebuttal is “I had a hard time in SBG 14 but figure it out”.
That’s like people saying “Hey, stuff in the mythic raid hits too hard for me to survive and feel viable. I’ve main tanked in mythic raids for years and this definitely feels like a problem” And your response is “I did a normal raid and struggled a little, but found out I can hit 1 button and be ok so we are fine.”
The difference between a 14 SBG and rest of the content at the 17/18 level is MASSIVE. You’re commenting on gameplay where the incoming damage is DOUBLE TO TRIPLE what you are taking when you “had a problem and figured it out”
Just pointing out that if you can roll out of bed and make keymaster before it gets challenging as a bear, thats pretty good. Are you expecting it be easy all the way to 20? I mean bear tanks are tanking 20s, so someone figured it out right? But you cant so there must be a problem? You are so good at tanking that if you are failing it has to be a game design flaw or class issue? Yeah I dont think so
Dont accuse me of trolling to devalue my opinion here, the keys increase at a 10 percent clip so yeah a 17 is harder than a 14 by 30 percent on paper sure. In practice, keys get easier above 15 if you PUG because the pool of players you are pulling from are significantly more knowledgeable of the content. In my opinion 12-14 are the most difficult keys to pug until you start getting to 18+
Im not saying bear is fine when compared to prot war, im saying all tanks are fine to tank mythic plus. You are conflating the two, just because prot is ahead doesnt mean you are not viable just keep at it and you will break through
EDIT: Double to triple damage from mythic 14 -17 is such a dramatic assessment i love it (its 30 percent not 200 to 300 percent)
Ok, but what if those people who figured it out over in the dreamgrove discord are also saying “Yea we have issues. It can be done, but it takes a lot more coordination and group comp and externals than it should”. What then? They are the experts, and they are saying something is wrong with the class too.
Why do you think you know better?
A 14 is 171% bonus dmg. An 18 is 297% bonus damage. That isn’t quite double but it’s close enough.
A 23 is already more than triple, which is about the highest keys GDruids can run.
My point stands. The content you’re running lets you get away with tons of mistakes. You’re not hard pressed to tank with the tools you’re given. If you’re at 80% hp and take a dragon strike, you drop to 40% and have time to hit frenzied regen. In higher key levels even if you have a frenzied regen up to use it doesn’t matter, because you just die. DKs don’t have the same issue because their health pool is waaaaay larger. Monks stagger magic damage. Warriors can spell reflect most of these abilities, and its still a 20s 30% magic DR, etc etc.
Nobody is saying druid can’t tank up to 20s. They are saying its more difficult than it should be because our survivability toolkit is lacking. The people who have done it, are still agreeing our toolkit is lacking.
And you’re in here saying everything is fine.
I dont know better, I understand your point.
I have learned from this thread that there is an issue at higher keys with defensive cooldowns being needed for trash pulls and that the game play mechanic of having to manage cooldowns perfectly or get one/two shotted is both annoying and unfair when compared to the options other tanks have. Its likely a scaling issue that needs to be addressed by blizzard and I hope they fix it.
My pushback is simple against the sky is falling druids are bad tanks and prot warriors are a god class idea. I have thoroughly enjoyed the bear tank this expansion and some of us would prefer utility over mitigation. I hope that they do not ruin it with sweeping changes to address what is ultimately a niche issue for high keys.
You want blizzard to balance the game around mythic +23? Are you kidding me? If you have to go that high in key level to find a problem, there is no problem
Is that what I said? I said the cracks that appear in our class at higher levels of gameplay aren’t obvious in something like a +14. They don’t appear until later.
And yes. If other tanks are capable of running a +26, bears should be too. Honestly in 26s it’s still not even the tanks that are buckling, at that point its usually because the group damage has become nigh-unsurvivable. But you don’t see bears at that level because we break first. That’s an issue. It’s still an issue down in the 17/18 range, but less obvious.
People aren’t upset because we think the sky is falling. But people ARE upset because we are getting a rework going live on Tuesday that fundamentally has not addressed any of the problems we have in high level mythic content and once we get a rework, the odds blizzard is going to do another rework again right after are super low.
They can fix us with some tuning changes, but it wouldn’t fix the fact that Gdruids kit right now is bad for the content that exists.