[Guardian] Frenzied Regeneration Changes

(Naros) #43

It forces global choices to matter.

Right now as a Guardian druid, we have only a very small number of choices we have to make as we tank and that usually comes down to things like

  1. Maul over Ironfur? - Based on content difficulty
  2. High Damage so do you use Barkskin, Survival Instincts, or FR?

Because FR is on the GCD, it adds another depth to the choice you make for (2).

If the high damage is something you anticipated and something you just want to smooth, then you’ll make the choice to weave in something that is bound by the GCD, just like any other rotation ability. People want to view FR like its a defensive choice, but its more a rotation ability we weave in as needed than anything else, hence why its on the GCD.

If the high damage is something you likely didn’t anticipate and you need to minimize damage intake substantially, you use your major cds (BS/SI) which aren’t bound by the GCD allowing you to react to the unexpected.

The designers wanted to alter when we use FR this expansion, trying to get us to use it as a smoothing mechanism to our damage in-take in a way that it acts like barkskin but on a much shorter cooldown. It was never meant to be a reactive game play concept like it was in Legion, something that I think a lot of Guardian druids have yet to truly grasp.

I don’t think FR belongs on the GCD after 1.5 years of playing with the spec in this particular style, but whether its on or off the GCD really has minimal to no major impact on the specs strength. That however, very well may change with the potency changes to FR in 8.2 when consuming more rage for more healing.

(Seliria) #44

I’d rather be both, and I’m particularly opposed to any hint of a tradeoff between the two (e.g. talent X is fun, but talent Y makes you stronger – Vengeance has this problem in a big way right now).

But your point about subjectivity is well taken – since different people will enjoy different builds, ALL builds (or at least most builds – if there are some particular talents in different rows that really clash, it may be OK that you can’t take both) should be strong enough to get the job done in at least the vast majority of content.

As for the specific case of FR and the GCD, I don’t see FR as having enough immediate impact that it’s really going to matter whether you have to wait for your next GCD to use it. It’s not death strike (which, IIRC, is on GCD even though it actually IS an ability that delaying another half second could sometimes kill you).

I suppose there’s 0.01% of fights where you really do get finished off by the followup hit in that half second, but if stam/armor/DR are tuned reasonably relative to incoming damage, that’s actually going to require a lot of things going wrong at once or you screwed up a mechanic or didn’t use a major CD when you should have.

I don’t think it’s a big deal either way, which is why I wouldn’t like to see it distract the devs from bears’ bigger problems.

(Drezwazluz) #45

This version of guardian druid has only existed for a few months. No one has years of experience. Every expansion is essentially a brand new spec.



If one of these is not true, then fix the one that is equal for everyone. When that is the case, fix the second one, that is different for everyone.

A spec being objectively weak should be a priority, as fun is personal and depends purely on a one to one basis. Fix the absolute before you fix the variable.

And the people who do like to play it, will. You’re correct, that’s how preferences work.

My answer to this didn’t make sense to you, or

or to him, because you’re not looking at it from any other point of view than your own. You really are quite poor at this subjective vs objective bit.


I use Barkskin when it appears likely that a fair amount of damage is incoming. I use SI when I know a large amount of damage is incoming. I use FR after I’ve taken a large amount of damage and want to heal in response to that damage. Those are completely different elements of tanking.

Barkskin is a DR. It mitigates damage that’s going to come in. FR is a heal. It reacts to damage that’s already come in. If they wanted a smoothing mechanism, FR should have been something like 3%/sec for 10 seconds. Then it would more feel more like a rotational ability, a buff to be maintained. If this were how they programmed FR, I’d be more likely to buy your speculation that it was intended to be rotational.

(Tewa) #47

Let’s ponder 2 theories.

Theory #1:

So it was never meant to be the thing they made it. O. K.

Theory #2:
Blizzard’s dev team massively over-reacted to all the “guardian is OP” crying and bellyaching in Legion, and just nerfed bears across the board in every conceivable way for BFA.

Considering the pathetic state of every single aspect of Guardian this expansion, I’m pretty sure Theory #2 is the correct one.

(Drezwazluz) #48

Bear wasn’t even OP for the majority of Legion, though? People taking umbrage to the forums doesn’t affect balancing or design decisions.

The most OP things about bears in Legion were both removed; 40 yard Roar and Ursol.

(Nuisense) #49

Correct. But you’ll have many many people argue that since Bear was the most POPULAR that this equals most powerful. And his theory is that to correct that perception, the decision was made to strip Bear to the bones. Bear is very basic right now. The spec runs on the bear (sorry, couldn’t stop myself) minimum abilities REQUIRED to complete content. But this makes it a spec that is unwanted, unfun and very definitely NOT POPULAR in BfA so far.

(Naros) #50

Then I look forward to the same treatment to Warrior, right?

Honestly what happened has everything to do with the fact that the designers simply didn’t allocate adequate time for each spec to be given ample time to be prepared for BFA, thus we ended up with rushed/broken/half-baked specs; remember Guardian wasn’t the only one here.

If popularity influenced Blizzard’s design decisions as claimed, we’d have seen a shift in BDK for CM/M+ long before the age of the Prot Warrior dominance.

I don’t think the fun factor really applies. I know quite a number of BDK players who don’t find the spec fun, they in fact feel its very boring compared to other tank options, but that in no way has hindered the class from being the highest parsed tank for BoD and holding a ~20% distribution across all M+ keys up to a +20.

When a class brings strengths, fun is secondary as Drez has said.

I do think what hurts Guardian the most is the fact there is no content where you really say to yourself, “I wish we had a Guardian druid for …”.

Guardian simply doesn’t bring anything desired to any end-game content. Its toolkit is very limited in certain aspects and because they have no other tools or reason to shine, they’re overlooked and thus not wanted when you can take any other tank that can simply bring more. It’s this alone that drives the popularity numbers where it counts IMHO.

(Naros) #51

Or perhaps Theory 3 is they ran out of time and Guardian was simply a lower priority for them than the specs which actually got adequate development.

Whatever the reason, they need to address the shortcoming specs where they functionally are inferior to their counterparts first. After those issues are resolved, we can look at numbers. I feel like the functional concerns should be at the forefront of 8.2 and if numbers tuning is still problematic, that can easily be hot fixed if there is some magically mandated release date for 8.2.

(Naros) #52

In my experience that play-style can only go so far and eventually looses value in the higher keystones where it becomes more critical for your healer to attempt to contribute damage rather than babysitting the tank.

Conceptually that’s no different than what it does today, you simply shifted the percentage and duration; but its still a heal over time regardless.

Frankly if FR was meant to be reactive, it would behave much more like spells such as Hand of the Protector or Healing Elixir where we gain the full or majority of the benefit of the spell up-front rather than equally distributed over-time.

It seems the jury is still out on how 8.2 will effect this.

(Nuisense) #53

Not so funnily enough, people don’t seem to have this knee-jerk reaction to other tank specs than Guardian. Maybe Guardian just hasn’t ever had enough people playing it to shield it from this kind of animosity.

As far as fun factor not applying… It’s the chicken and egg thing, right? Usually a class being fun means it’s also not bad. But which comes first… Who knows. Right now, I find the sheer scarcity of me being allowed to tank means that I find any time I get to fun. Now, my group might disagree since they have to put up with my flubs and fumbles and our timing is off greatly. But I find it fun even if it is torturous for them.

I think most everyone agrees that when they finally pulled their fingers out of their ears and paid attention to what their Alpha and Beta testers had been saying for months, it was too late. They just didn’t have enough time to fix the gigantic mess they were headed toward. Why they haven’t made just the minimal fixes via hot-fix patches, who knows? I would have thought they’d want to get that cleaned up ASAP, but the speed (or DECIDED lack of it) at which they have been moving to correct the issues has been less than impressive.

Personally, I think we’ll be in the same mess after 8.2 releases. I don’t know why they can’t make the easy fixes. Maybe they are so tied up with red tape and having to get approval from everyone (although I don’t know why since even when they go the long way round they don’t get it right) that they just CANNOT do anything fast. Or even moderately hasty. And after seeing the mess that Essences still are even this far in, I can’t say that I’m hopeful for a huge improvement. Some of what they have put on PTR as options for an Essence is just either so mind-blowing OP or atrociously bad that you have to wonder if they have anyone involved in the design process who understands the game.

(Naros) #54

It isn’t unique to Guardian, BDK got the same treatment in 8.0.1. There were quite a number of nerf BDK threads and posts around then.

Just like a class can be fun, but its not strong or the best spec/choice too.

We cannot forget that fun itself is highly subjective. What one finds fun won’t be for the next person, that’s precisely why we have multiple classes for all roles offering differing ways to do said role attempting to provide the community with a wide breadth of potential fun.

They likely believed that making any minimal changes to live would somehow impact the Season 2 meta with the MDI, which is why we haven’t seen much of any class changes since 8.1. I don’t agree with that philosophy at all, but if asked I wouldn’t be surprised if that was their stance.

Change isn’t something you necessarily want to rush. How many times have Blizzard made some class change on the PTR and then within a week or two reverted or altered the way in which they implemented that change?

I don’t want Blizzard to get in the habit of randomly throwing changes out there without weighing all the impacts of the change that it otherwise has a drastic negative impact on the game.

On the other hand, letting the state of certain specs wane on as they have also have an equivalent negative impact on the game too.

The pros/cons have to be weighed on both sides of the coin, sometimes we just don’t like the outcome of what they feel is best for the game at that point in time given the current set of circumstances.

At least on the plus side they’re iterating on them. The reality is some of them will have more impact to certain specs than others and that’s intended. We’ve dealt with that sort of bias for years.

The most important take away is that given a spec, is there a combination of the essences that provide sufficient benefit that the specs overall power is within a MoE (margin of error) of its role-centric counterparts.

(Skruffette) #55

Everyone experiences the game differently and plays the game differently. That’s the way I use FR, and I suspect many others do as well. And an FR that fails to trigger in response to a sudden drop in HP feels really, really bad, which is the point I was trying to convey.

A 3 second HoT doesn’t really feel like a maintenance buff to me. It’s still a reactionary tool. But a 10 second HoT is more like a maintenance buff. Or go full on and make it, say an 16 second HoT at 2% HP per second. Then it’s really a maintenance buff.

Of course simply pressing a button every 16 seconds when your addon beeps at you isn’t particularly interesting. But what if you had 3 charges on, say, a 1 minute recharge? Then you could double/triple up the buff for the quick stuff and keep it steady for the longer fights.

Conversely, if it was meant to be rotational, it would have been a longer, slower heal. A 3 second HoT seems a lot closer to “instant” than a maintenance buff. I suppose it’s somewhere in between, which is probably why it’s so awkward right now.

But either way you want to use it, rotationally or reactively, taking it off the GCD doesn’t make it any stronger. It just makes it less annoying.

(Tewa) #56

A room full of smart people could fix WoW’s class problems in 48 hours. I’ve solved bigger problems in less time.

(Nuisense) #57

I’m no programmer, so I won’t pretend I know how long it would take to actually apply the fixes. But I agree that most of the issues could be hashed out and a general solution for each class/spec be proposed in a relatively short period of time. Especially if it was temporary and just supposed to be a stop-gap until better/more effective solutions could be implemented.

I think the most annoying thing we deal with now is the “Yes, we screwed up (winkyface) and we are working on developing fixes for it now (winkyface). We don’t have any ACTUAL information (winkyface_soonTM) for you at this time, but we PROMISE we’ll have more for you soon (winkyface_soonTM_raspberryemote). In the meantime, we’ll make EVERY EFFORT (winkyface) to communicate (ROFLMAOemote) more often (soonTM) with our community (sarcasticsmirk).” Every “Q&A” and “news” article feels like that now. And meanwhile, we sit and wait.

(Naros) #58

More importantly, we sit and continue to pay for the garbage.

(Nuisense) #59

Well, I’m going to 15 years uninterrupted and then stopping. I figured I got this close, might as well finish it off. And then I’ll be done. So, November. I’m hopeful there will be something to keep my attention by then. Or, I just might take time off from gami… Hahaha. Who am I kidding. I won’t stop gaming. No, I’ll find something else while I wait for Pantheon.