[Guardian] Frenzied Regeneration Changes


#1

We, of the Guardian community, appreciate that Blizzard is at least looking at doing something with Frenzied Regeneration (FR, going forward). However, this is not the right approach. You’ve effectively made it feel even worse to hit FR than it felt before.

You addressed some concerns with our rage and that was immediately taken away with forcing us to use more of it with FR. We already were only ever using FR to keep it off of 2 charges, this change makes it feel like we should only ever hit Ironfur, going forward.

In a 12 minute fight with the target dummy where I only ever hit FR to keep it off of 2 charges AND (not or, but AND) ~50% hp, 41% of my Frenzied Regeneration was over-healing.

My suggestion is to leave it the way it is on live and remove the GCD, or make the “up to 40 rage” significantly lower.

Some other suggestions I’ve heard:

  • “Make it a single charge with a 12-18 sec CD reduced by haste making it a “I just got hit by magic or a single huge hit” button” and this way you could still leave it at 40 rage"

NOTE: I’ll be keeping this post updated with other GOOD suggestions I hear throughout the community.


(Naturesgift) #2

Making it 1 charge, still on the GCD and consuming even more rage couldnt have been a worse combination of things to do.

How about this:
Take off GCD
10 Rage
3 charges
30 sec CD
Make it heal for 8% up front and 6% over 3 seconds

If you really want to go down the path you have chosen, please just get rid of it, increase mastery healing recieved and give us back Mark of Ursol


#3

I’m almost of the mind to just get rid of it.


(Drezwazluz) #4

It’s not just one charge though.

The GCD makes no real difference beyond feel.

Seeing as how they cut down on every tank’s magic mit, this is not happening. Period.


#5

Their suggestion was to make it one charge. Taking it off the GCD will have the same effect as taking Ignore Pain of the GCD for Prot Warriors, which is to say, was huge.


(Drezwazluz) #6

This is quantifiably false.

This was never the case.


(Skruffette) #7

I kind of like it the way it is now except for the GCD. Remove it from the GCD and I think it’s ok. I actually like that it’s a consistent amount of healing. Even though it may overheal at times, I like knowing that when I hit that button, I’m getting a big chunk of health back. I do like the idea of changing it to be all instant rather than a very short HoT.

I don’t like it being on the GCD because it’s a reactionary tool for me, and sometimes when I’ve hit the button, it doesn’t actually fire off. That’s pretty frustrating. What is Blizzard’s reason behind having it on the GCD?


(Tyraidhe) #8

Taking IP off the GCD opened up the GCD to be used for a builder while also being able to activate IP. It effectively allowed warriors more opportunity to build rage, which is how taking FR off the GCD would help as well, in theory.

Now, a paladin asking for Light/Hand of the Protector off GCD, that’s all just feel as it has almost zero affect on our ability to build a resource, and it’s simply annoying that i have to make a spare GCD to use it.

Now as to the argument of whether or not Guardian’s need FR off GCD is questionable. I’m not familiar enough with Guardian to know how much using that GCD on FR affects their ability to generate rage.


(Drezwazluz) #9

As already stated (I think in this thread? Might have been another) IP is cast typically around 50-60 times in a five minute fight. Assuming most of those are now devastate casts, that’s still ~30% proccing SS, which is ~16-20. which is ~240-300 additional rage.

For bear, FR is typically cast around 8-12 times in a five minute fight. Assuming the same, that those are all swipes, at a 15% proc chance for Gore, that’s 1-2 Gore procs, which is 12-24 rage.

It would not make a noticeable difference.


(Skruffette) #10

You are assuming a rather narrow playstyle (some may use FR more than others). Further, there is more to the FR on the GCD issue than simply saving the GCD for a rage generator. It is also the way FR feels. It’s very frustrating when it doesn’t go off due to the GCD, particularly with an ability that is reactive.

That said, your point really makes the case that it should be taken off the GCD, since it would have no appreciable affect on anything else. It would just smooth the flow of the game. (And maybe that was your point, in which case, thank you for the supportting comment).


(Drezwazluz) #11

How it feels does not affect it’s strength.

My point is more, the removal of FR from the GCD is constantly requested. And it’s always provided like “It would make bear so much more viable (hate this word, everything is viable)”

People have actually convinced themselves that FR on the gcd makes an impact on bear’s capability, and that’s flatly false. It would feel better, it would feel quite a bit better, but then it’s compared to IP and the whole thing goes down the drain.

Comparing an ability used less than a fifth as often as IP being on the gcd, as though it would make the same impact on power or feeling, is atrociously false.

Take it off, leave it on, I don’t care much. But those who compare it to IP are delusional.


#12

It doesn’t matter if it was ever the case or not. The individual was merely making a suggestion which is allowed especially in a post asking for suggestions.


(Drezwazluz) #13

Did you actually read? They weren’t suggesting to make it one charge. They were incorrectly stating that Blizzard had made it one charge.


#14

Either way, I’d appreciate it if you left the trolling and toxicity elsewhere. I’d rather not have a post blocked because of one individual. You’ve provided nothing constructive outside of telling everyone they’re wrong about how THEY feel.


(Drezwazluz) #15

The poster stated they had changed it to one charge. That was false.

This is a quantifiable thing. It’s been mathed out. That’s not “feel”. It’s fact.

This is, again, a major design decision of BFA. Every tank lost serious amounts of both self-sustain healing and most of their magic/bleed mitigation. Mark of Ursol was removed over a year before said tank changes were made in BFA. So there is literally no chance it will make a comeback in this expansion, if ever.

This was in response to your horridly erroneous claim that it is comparable to IP. I even quantified it in a later post,

Here.

Then we have this, which, again, is false. The poster was not suggesting to make it one charge, they were incorrectly stating that Blizzard had made it one charge. Which, again, was incorrect.

This, again, is quantifiable. Something feeling good or bad does not affect it being strong or weak.

Finally, we come to this.

So can you please provide anything to indicate trolling or toxicity? Being snarky does not take away from pointing out incorrect and factually baseless claims are just that. Incorrect and factually baseless.

Or do your feelings affect what you view as facts, too.


#16

IP is cast typically around 50-60 times in a five minute fight. Assuming most of those are now devastate casts, that’s still ~30% proccing SS, which is ~16-20. which is ~240-300 additional rage.

I’ve just looked at 10 different Mythic BoD logs of 5 minute fights, even amongst the best warriors none cast 50-60 IPs in 5 minutes, you’re looking at 30-40 top.

For bear, FR is typically cast around 8-12 times in a five minute fight. Assuming the same, that those are all swipes, at a 15% proc chance for Gore, that’s 1-2 Gore procs, which is 12-24 rage.

Comparing the current state of IP vs. the current state of FR is like comparing apples to oranges, the reason Guardian druids are only casting 8-12 FRs in a 5 minute fight is because of the current state of FR. That’s why this post was created in the first place.


(Drezwazluz) #17

How are you quantifying best, damage done?

My numbers are from Uldir. You realized that, right? It’d be a pretty simple oversight to compare IP off the gcd to FR on the gcd.

And I love how you completely ignored your attempt at an attack (calling me toxic and trolling, uncalled for) and playing the victim (stop attacking people’s feelings! If they’re wrong, it doesn’t matter if they feel it!)

?


#18

The point that myself and multiple other guardian druids are making is that increasing the cost of FR and keeping it on the GCD, makes it feel even worse to press than it did before. Right now the current state of FR has you hitting it to keep you off of 2 stacks. Does that sound like it’s working as intended?

My numbers are from Uldir.

If your numbers are from Uldir, you’re gonna have to link a single log where someone casts 60 IPs in 5 minutes because that’s nigh impossible and improper use if anything.


(Skruffette) #19

I’m hesitant to continue participating in what is becoming a little too heated of a discussion, but I’ll add this comment in reponse.

My comment was really all about how FR feels. And it seems you might be suggesting that how it feels doesn’t matter compared to it’s strength. But to me, FR on the GCD makes it less strong because it makes it harder to use. It’s not fun when I press it and it doesn’t fire. And please don’t tell me that’s an L2P issue. I get how we need to adapt to make it function. There’s nothing fun about seeing the big health drop and then starting to go for FR, forcing myself to pause for the GCD to clear, then pressing it.

I think you mean often, not always. Bear is viable. But it would be more fun (and not overpowered) if FR were off the GCD.

Of course it does. When FR doesn’t go off becuase of the GCD, that affects things. Bears are capable, but wouldn’t we be more capable with a more consistently triggering FR?

My comparison is only in terms of the ease of use. IP is easier to use because it’s not on the GCD. FR is often more frustrating than fun. Taking it off the GCD is not really going to change how good Bears are compared to other tanks. It would make it more fun for me. And isn’t that an important consideration, too?


(Naros) #20

What you’re actually trying to convey is that having FR on the GCD impacts your game play to a point where the rotation isn’t fluid or reactive enough for a given style of play or encounter scenario.

Frenzied Regeneration’s strength is measured by how potent the spell is to recover the player’s health based on the incoming damage. As seen by the recent 8.2 changes, the designers identified that the ability wasn’t potent enough for certain damage scenarios, hence why the sliding rage window allows for the ability to have a higher up-front potent heal to account for that.

From a designer’s perspective, those are very different.

Is it a pain that its on the GCD and there are times we may think we hit the button only to find out a global or two later that the GCD prevented us from actually casting the ability in the first place? Damn right it does.

But that is an argument on how reactive/fluid the rotation is.
That has nothing to do with how strong FR is.

Yep it does, I’ve been there. But you’re focusing on the wrong things. It’s already something we can consistently use by adapting to the GCD.

I think there is an argument to be made that the GCD impacts reactive game play when you consider that FR is now going to be more potent in 8.2 with the initial heal versus what we have on live now.

A couple quick things.

While IP is easier to use, its also used far more regularly than FR. It’s not uncommon for my warrior co-tank to use IP by a factor of 4+ times than I use FR per raid encounter.

I do agree that by taking FR off the GCD, it really doesn’t or won’t impact tank balance at all. It would be a welcomed QoL improvement for Guardians who have stuck it out for sure. It would improve our reactive game play style so that the rotation doesn’t work against the player.

As for fun, that’s entirely subjective and player biased.

I think whether players find something fun is important, but that is less of a critical factor than other aspects of design unfortunately.