Absolutely. You’ve gone on to say that anything under a 15 is trivial content countless times in numerous threads. Youve based entire arguments off it. Im willing to bet you havent tanked, healed or dealt damage in a 15, or even a 10 for that matter.
Unless proven otherwise, Im going to take your word as garbage.
You’re not making arguments though. You’re just picking out flaws in an otherwise true statement. Its the fallacy fallacy.
You presumed that because a claim has been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that the claim itself must be wrong.
Hendò’s comment about 8.1 prot changes for example…
“5% increased stam”
While The 5% increase was to vanguard, and not stamina, then end result is the same. An increase of HP.
Because he mispoke, youre attempting to toss out his entire argument. Wasting our time debating “how much”, when that was never the point.
And how could I prove it? You realize you’ve caught yourself in a catch 22, right? You won’t believe me unless i give proof, but you wouldn’t accept proof because you don’t believe me.
I’m not arguing a fallacy fallacy. That would imply I’m stating the entire point someone is making is wrong because something they said has an untrue portion.
The majority of my comments are pointing out that a part of what someone said is incorrect. Not much more to it than that.
He did not misspeak. His subsequent comments, and other comments, indicated he made the same mistake many people who do not know better assume. That it was literally a 5% health increase.
The only thing i did in response was state that it as not a 5% health increase, to him. I did not use it to further any other arguments I made against him, nor did it affect how I retorted towards anyone else.
You’re still assuming I’m saying more than I am, which is a fallacy as well. Fyi.
Proving it would be a simple as asking you to log off with your boots unequipped or something to that effect.
Yeah. Thats not an argument.
You veered off course from the thread discussion to nitpick a technicality. It didnt affect the point he was trying to make, regardless if he knew of his error or not.
Actually I continued going back and forth with everyone that replied to me or quoted me. Talking to him, in addition to others, does not derail the thread. I can carry more than one conversation.
Or my shoe on my head.
Well, this was fun while it lasted. Not taking it seriously anymore.
This thread has gone so far off the rails its at the bottom of an ocean.
The entire point of the thread is to point out that people are hesitant to group with bear tanks, although it may be somewhat unjustified because the OP was able to finish the dungeon in time with 1 less person. No one said it was impossible to complete (insert key level here) dungeon, just to point out that people would rather do it with a tank that is other than druid.
The community feels this way for a reason. Bear DOES lag behind the other top tier tanks. That is a well know fact. I know it to be true because i have tanked many keys on druid, warrior and pally.
Peoples frustration with you derives from that fact that you nit pick individual statements of contention just for the sake of arguing. 5% vice a 3.6% increase in stam is negligible at best, but you harp on that fact and claim it as a forum victory and try to invalidate the other persons stance.
I’ve seen plenty of posts that you do offer helpful advice. I’ve seen far more where you nit pick and troll just to argue. You argue just for the sake of arguing, not to add helpful, useful, or constructive information.
And regardless of how you feel, the forums can affect change in the game. I’ve been playing on and off since vanilla and seen class changes happen and nerfs get reverted due to a large enough out cry from the community, and that’s what i would like to see. My druid is my main, and although I main balance I would like to see bear get brought up and narrow with the gap with other top tier tanks. The current changes scheduled in 8.2 don’t get that done.
As for what character(s) you actually play, nothing beats first hand knowledge. Actually doing something vice reading about it DOES give one more insight and more authority to speak on it.
TL;DR
Bears DO need a few chages to compete with warr and pally in keys as well as change the community perception.
You understand the point of the post is that druids struggle getting into and doing said content, and he feels this is an us issue not a guardian issue?? Are you broken??
Once again would you prefer a surgeon that has read the books on surgery or the surgeon who has read the books and performed the surgery 1000 times? This is a straight forward easy to understand statement.
You say guardians do trivial +15 content and are in the top +20s…IF you claim trivial this to me is a statement that you feel the content is mildly easy thus you should have it completed yourself (+15s I wouldn’t expect +20s from you to prove the point).
Your source is nothing more than opinions and concepts you thought up and have not actually experienced yourself through any kind of hands on experience, and it will be that way until proven otherwise.
If you cannot get into a M+ because you’re a Guardian, form your own. There is no reason you cannot make friends, invite guild mates, or create your own group in the finder. If you don’t want to do any of that, that’s a you problem.
Some who have posted in this thread have sub 900 IO score and after looking at some of them, they have no experience what so ever with certain dungeons, not even a +2 or +4. At this point in the season, that has nothing to do with Stigma, that has far more to do with the fact they lack experience knowing how best to pull the dungeon with certain affixes and that carries a lot of weight when looking at the affixes at the +7 and +10 difficulty levels.
Guardian is inferior to other tanks, Drez has actually said that himself.
That means that accomplishing the keystone does become more challenging when a Guardian tank is at the wheel versus say a Warrior. But to be fair, there is really nothing inherently challenging about M15s or below.
If you have the right gear, awareness, plan your pulls in advance, mastered your class, and know when you should/should-not kite, and consider your group makeup for the dungeon and affixes in play, you’ll be just fine. You may not be able to make some of the crazy pulls like the Warriors did in the MDI, but if your damage players pull their weight, you’ll have no issue making time.
Agree with most everything you say here. But you leave out something very important.
Experience. I have tanked a few mid-range (10 to 16) runs and I can tell you that there are things you don’t know as dps that you find out when you tank. Mobs that do things that you have no clue is there or hurts as bad and NEEDS a defensive or just all together dodge when your job is dps. So, you need that experience tanking in the first place to know what to do in runs. And Guardians don’t get a chance to gain that. I can also speak of that from experience. I run a FH, learn things, and am more confident for next time. But the healer, who is used to super smooth runs, ends up traumatized and unwilling to go again. Even though the rest of the group, who all play tanks, say it wasn’t really that bad just had a few flubs and give input on how to avoid them next time. But no, that’s the last run I get to tank for weeks.
But experience isn’t just for the Guardian. It is also for your dps and healers. Guardians have to approach a few things differently than other tanks, and a lot of dps just don’t allow them to do so. They’ll jump pulls early or think pulling a caster mob out of the group is no big deal since the tank can get it back in just fine. Stuff like that. Guardians just don’t get enough exposure to the runs and to the other players to really be able to be on the same wavelength as everyone else as to what needs to happen. A consequence of the stigma surrounding Guardian.
So yes, I agree with you, mostly. But even your friends and guildies will actively avoid letting you tank if they can at all help it. Not if there are better options. And right now, almost all the options are better by quite a bit. If not in reality, than in the minds of the playerbase. Including your own friends and guild. Now, if you manage to break through that and get the experience for both you and the group that is necessary for smooth runs, then good on you. Just remember that not everyone (I would say MOST everyone, but some nit picker is gonna start asking for where I got my numbers and to back it up, etc etc blah blah blah) is in such a situation.
I’m a newer player to the M+ scene, and have basically stuff to healing and dps. I want to tank more, but fear trying to do so due to my general lack of knowledge of tanking and my choice of tanking as bear. Would it be worth it to push forward learning this patch if I like the class, or wait until next one?
Absolutely, I don’t disagree; experience is critical.
Sure they do.
What do you expect when you jump into a +14 or +16 as a first time tank?
I’m not trying to be crass or spiteful here, but just asking what I believe to be a fair question. The lower keystones are there for a reason, to learn what you need to know to combat the dungeon mechanics based on your spec.
I’m not saying that you need to do +2s with your item level, but even a +8 or +9 paired with your lack of tank experience will be eye opening for you and allows you to play with things in a less punishing environment that doesn’t jeopardize the time and won’t be as concerning for your healer or the group.
This seems far fetched.
What reason does a DPS have to move a caster out of the pack of trash that your group is currently focusing down? I’ve never personally ran into a situation where I’ve needed by DPS classes to do that, hence my confusion with that.
Secondly if your DPS players are pulling or jumping into trash before you, that’s not a Guardian problem; that’s a DPS player problem where they need to actually let the tank make the pull and establish threat.
Based on what exactly?
That’s you; my experience is very different.
I have every tank class at 120 and I could easily swap to any of them. Some of the people I run with on a regular basis have Warrior or Pally tanks we could swap out to if we wanted, but we stick with a Guardian druid tank because its what I want to play and we do just fine with it.
Unless you intend to compete for MDI; the better options aren’t necessary.
You keep returning to, I don’t have any problems doing it and for you that may be the case. Refer to the last statement I made in my post.
As for NOT starting in a 14. I agree. Some folks aren’t in a situation where you can talk folks into letting you run lower keys. And, tbh, in my group we don’t have 8s or 9s. Rarely do we have 10s, 11s, 12s. Which gets us up into the
area of hurt. Convincing them to drop down to a 10 or 9 is a non starter. They just aren’t interested. And we all end up having “interesting” times together, but I get the blame for it all.
As to the rest, it’s the kind of thing that happens when you don’t run with Guardians. And please don’t start with the “they shouldn’t do that” stuff. Yes, I know it, they know it, we all know it. But if you haven’t run with a Guardian in something like forever, your timing will be off. Stuff will get jumped, aggro will be pulled, mobs will be scattered, group will be unhappy and… There goes the chance to run another dungeon as Guardian for a while. For those in a different situation, well of course it doesn’t happen like that. Good for you. I get to deal with it. And the aftermath.
Lastly, I know you didn’t mean to be snooty, but it still came off that way. Assuming my gear level or experience is a non starter. It’s one reason I don’t directly speak against someone’s “apparent” gear or experience level like in Drezwazluz’s case. Nobody knows except that person. I don’t OPENLY judge on the forums, in most cases, and would prefer others issue me the same courtesy. If I get something wrong, call me out. Otherwise, assume that maybe I do know what I’m talking about. And I have been perfectly open with my short-comings in tanking and my current lack of experience tanking in this expac. I’ve put that out there several times on this forum, so it wouldn’t be hard to see me talking about it in the past.
Remember,
is where you reside in the gaming community. I DON’T have numbers to back it up, but I would suspect that you are an outlier, not the average.
So are you saying the 4 others you run with only want to run these 14+ and up keys and cannot be bothered running lower keys?
Neither does my team but that hasn’t stopped us from taking the time when some of the team isn’t online to jump into the LFD tool and jump into a group with a low keystone and switch up roles.
I totally understand that but that wasn’t what I was inferring. There’s an entire LFD system with plenty of people who are more than willing to take a decent geared team into their +7/+8/+9 keystone.
Doesn’t sound like a fun experience to me if I’m being honest.
So is your issue that the group’s damage output exceds your threat and they pull aggro, take damage and the healer gets unhappy they have to heal them?
Why do mobs get scattered if that’s the case? Is that because of threat and rather than ask you to taunt a mob, they run away from you?
That’s your choice bud, but if it were me I’d be outta there.
M+ is all about teamwork to accomplish a goal and anything that goes against that only fuels problems that will eventually tear the group apart.
Yeah, I got tired of dealing with it. I haven’t run many M+ in the last few weeks. Pretty much taking the rest of the season off. I don’t care about RIO score and the chances at upgrades from M+ is kinda small for me now. So, I’ll relax and watch some shows or movies and recharge for the next season.
I dont think bears are squishy if played right. I say this because pug healers comment how easy I am to heal etc but that said I am not doing 20s so that may make the difference.