Guardian Druid Feedback


(Tewa) #1002
10/27/2018 05:51 PMPosted by Arceval
10/27/2018 05:29 PMPosted by Tewa

People keep asking too much of Blizzard. They don't have the staff, bandwidth, or creativity to do great things anymore. The best option are quick fixes that will take a minimum of effort, which is why I'm more focused on rewinding the clock a little bit to before we were gutted, rather than wishing for pie in the sky.
Most. Profitable. Game. In. History.


Profits they spend on the rest of their business. WoW paid for development of HotS, Overwatch, and Hearthstone. And it's going to be financing their "future project" too.

And it isn't a question of money. Blizzard has some pretty byzantine internal bureaucratic elements when it comes to game development that stymie things sometimes. And their hiring practices are not "look for the most talented people" but are instead "look for people that the current staff likes" which just leads to a lot of same-ism. Remember the old WoW magazine? It didn't come out and say it on the surface, but if you could get through the marketing double-speak it painted a pretty dysfunctional system. I'm surprised they get anything done, tbh.

(Tenshirou) #1003
10/27/2018 06:28 PMPosted by Tewa
"look for people that the current staff likes" which just leads to a lot of same-ism


I may get lambasted for saying this, BUT....

A lot of their games show this as well. Most of their games show little if any real inventiveness in their gameplay. At the time Starcraft came out, there were games like Total Annihilation, HOWEVER, Starcraft had gameplay that was pretty much a straight copy of Warcraft 2 with slightly better graphics and story. Starcraft 2 follows that patter.

Every game, even Overwatch has followed this pattern of copying the gameplay of another game. Overwatch is basically TF2 meets MOBA. When I played the beta, it was so easy to get into since I played Smite and TF2 way too much that I got bored of it extremely fast.

Unfortunately, it seems there is a push to do the same with Guardians, try and push them to be like other tanks and in the process have ruined how we play. Every time they try and mash in another tank's gameplay in, they remove stuff and add in an ad hoc of that other gameplay and it just doesnt mesh at all. They keep trying and remove more and more and never add back in as much as was taken.

The lack of imagination in the gameplay just is murdering things.

(Pinehardt) #1004
Getting back on track with the 8.1 changes.

I definitely agree with the sentiment that these changes are a small step in the right direction. Not a huge step, but it’s something.

Ursol’s is definitely welcome, but making it compete with Wild Charge as a talent is pretty frustrating. That being said, 1 min stampeding roar will definitely help alleviate some of the mobility issues that may come up. Overall, a net gain.

The damage buff is a damage buff. It’ll help with threat which is nice, and frankly that's all we really need it to do. (Bear damage has never been huge, and I don't really feel it needs to be. Just as long as we do enough to do our jobs well)

A lot of folks have brought up wanting Rage of the Sleeper back to further boost our damage. While I absolutely miss Rage of the Sleeper, I don’t miss it for the damage buff. What made Rage of the Sleeper amazing (and admittedly one of the most overpowered cooldowns in the game) was how versatile it was.
Yes it was a DPS cooldown to help with threat on the pull, but the defensive/leech side also made it a fantastic "I got this" button so healers didn't have to worry about us for 10 seconds. Even more important to me was the CC immunity. Being able to cheese mechanics every once in a while was an absolute treat, and is something I miss quite a lot. (Also, having Salty Warlocks accuse me of cheating because I immuned their Fear casts in the free-for-all PVP world quests was one Legion's simple pleasures)

Basically, if bears get an offensive CD back, I would much rather it have it be a minor damage boost with more significant utility aspect to it (A Druid version "Avenging Wrath" would be incredibly boring)

As for the Azerite trait, while it may be really weak at the moment I genuinely like the concept. More Gore procs means more non-swipes used (more mangles and Ironfurs)

I still believe that one of the main reasons our rotation is so dull is because Gore is literally our only baseline rotational synergy.... but until we get the total rework we deserve I’ll take what I can get.

Bear Trivia:
In November of 1902, President Theodore Roosevelt once encountered a Bear on a hunting trip. His attendants, eager to please their boss, hounded and clubbed a Black bear cub. They then called over Roosevelt to give him the honor of slaying the beast. The President, disgusted by this unsportsmanlike conduct, refused and instructed that the wounded animal be put out of its misery. This incident was later adapted into a political cartoon, which then inspired U.S. Toymaker Morris Michtom to create a soft bear toy, called "Teddy's Bear".

(Tenshirou) #1005
I have already made my point of the lack of imagination in WoW's classes. But lets look at the past of Bear tanks for inspiration on what we could be as a niche.

Vanilla..., lets skip this.

TBC, we were an off tank, we could swap to cat form to help with dps when we were not needed for tanking. How we geared for tanking could be taken two ways. You could do like Rawr suggested and keep your stats balanced. There was also the dodge option. This meant taking a lot of lower ilevel items, but when you got just the right items, you could break the 102.6% dodge cap and be unhittable. Yeah, I could solo tank Gruul (and did when the shield tanks died)..., and caused a raid guild to fall apart as the guildmaster/maintank got pissed over that.

Wrath, we became a main tank. However, we were still a little funky with how we played. Late game however, we became a dodge tank again. The debuff in Icecrown showed this. Of course, this was admitted to be the fault of unplanned raiding tiers, but we still hit the point where they had to nerf dodge.

Cataclysm, I have to say this again, due to something unpleasant, my memories of this time are pretty scattered. I had to go research things and got reminded of Savage Defense. I think I remember why I did so well as a tank in Wrath and Cata now and why I enjoyed it. A link to the passive:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/index.php?title=Savage_Defense&oldid=2699622

Mastery and Vengence buffed it and allowed bears to do well. I know that because while I do not remember much about the expansion, I remember how I did hard things like the original hard mode dungeons just fine.

MoP we went back to being a pseudo dodge tank because of a Savage Defense change, but things didnt feel as good. I still worked, but the gameplay got to the point where if you were not doing heroic raids, you could literally play with macros handling your rotation (I still have the macros).

So, where did bears do well in the past. Before Savage defense became an active and FR joined it, we worried more about how much we could crit. Our rotation was about trying to maximize it. That was where our gameplay started. With the two actives, we worried less about the damage rotation and more about trying to get the rage for those two.

Hmmm, I will need to think on which of those would be better and a way to make things work.

(Tewa) #1006
10/28/2018 12:11 PMPosted by Pinehardt
Ursol’s is definitely welcome, but making it compete with Wild Charge as a talent is pretty frustrating. That being said, 1 min stampeding roar will definitely help alleviate some of the mobility issues that may come up. Overall, a net gain.

It isn't a net gain if we're losing Intimidating Roar, though. Intimidating Roar is extremely useful in several situations, especially M+. On trash packs, we trade our GCD to cause the monsters to lose a GCD (actually a bit longer than 1 GCD). It gives the healers an extra GCD to pop a heal on us, which is often desperately needed.

It's also important for getting Infested worms under control. Yes, you could pop Ursol's to do the same thing, except you have to deal with the clunky ground targeting and - if I recall correctly - Ursol's radius is smaller than the space that the 2 Ghuunies spawn apart, so it won't get both. Since we don't have a slow (WHICH IS DESPERATELY NEEDED AND NEEDS TO BE PUT BACK IN ASAP), assuming you're not running with a Frost Mage carrying your butt, Intimidating Roar is an important tool to keep the G'hunnies from running off right after spawning.

Trading Intimidating Roar for Ursol's on that talent tree is a net loss. If they want to put Vortex back on the talent tree, replace that useless Tiger's Dash ability, instead.


10/28/2018 12:11 PMPosted by Pinehardt
The damage buff is a damage buff. It’ll help with threat which is nice, and frankly that's all we really need it to do. (Bear damage has never been huge, and I don't really feel it needs to be. Just as long as we do enough to do our jobs well)

It isn't enough. We're 20% below other tanks in damage, all the data shows that quite clearly. A 12% buff to our damage does not make up a 20% gap.


10/28/2018 12:11 PMPosted by Pinehardt
A lot of folks have brought up wanting Rage of the Sleeper back to further boost our damage. While I absolutely miss Rage of the Sleeper, I don’t miss it for the damage buff. What made Rage of the Sleeper amazing (and admittedly one of the most overpowered cooldowns in the game) was how versatile it was.
Yes it was a DPS cooldown to help with threat on the pull, but the defensive/leech side also made it a fantastic "I got this" button so healers didn't have to worry about us for 10 seconds. Even more important to me was the CC immunity. Being able to cheese mechanics every once in a while was an absolute treat, and is something I miss quite a lot. (Also, having Salty Warlocks accuse me of cheating because I immuned their Fear casts in the free-for-all PVP world quests was one Legion's simple pleasures)

Basically, if bears get an offensive CD back, I would much rather it have it be a minor damage boost with more significant utility aspect to it (A Druid version "Avenging Wrath" would be incredibly boring)

When I say "get back Rage of the Sleeper" I also mean with the Embrace of the Nightmare elements rolled in.

We're encountering this now on Mythic Zul. The way the timing works, the Crusher tank is often having to pull the 2nd Crusher out to the edge at the same time Zul transitions and does a massive knockback, knocking the Crusher tank off the edge. I've always been the Crusher tank but we're going to have to change that. The Death Knight tank can use Death's Advance to become immune to the knockback. The Druid tank cannot.

Another example of an "overpowered" ability that was stripped from Druids, but Death Knights have the same thing and it's fine. I mean, come on.


10/28/2018 12:11 PMPosted by Pinehardt
As for the Azerite trait, while it may be really weak at the moment I genuinely like the concept. More Gore procs means more non-swipes used (more mangles and Ironfurs)

I still believe that one of the main reasons our rotation is so dull is because Gore is literally our only baseline rotational synergy.... but until we get the total rework we deserve I’ll take what I can get.


As I said in beta, the way to change Gore is to add an AoE component in addition to the single target component:
*Gore procs from Moonfire & Maul should trigger a proc on Mangle, as now.
*But Gore procs from Swipe should trigger a proc on Thrash, instead. Not on Mangle.

(Tenshirou) #1007
10/28/2018 01:18 PMPosted by Tenshirou
Hmmm, I will need to think on which of those would be better and a way to make things work.


I doubt this will make sense, I should wait till later when I am more awake. Oh well, good ideas are not always my forte.

Considering how we played before the rather brutal ways they tried to make active mitigation work with us, it would be interesting to look at a way to make the old Savage Defense work as an active mitigation.

First lets say that rather than a one hit takes it away, any time you are hit, the damage just reduces the shield. Any time a proc of it happens, it is added to the shield rather than replacing it.

We go with the old method for a baseline benefit from it. Any proc you get gives you a small amount of the shield. The amount is static and not much will increase it except MAYBE your mastery. That is because it is proc'ed by crit. As time goes on, you will get more crit and hence, get more shield procs.

Now the problem there is both early game and needing the shield up at certain times. To that end, we make the active part Maul. No cooldown or GCD, but keep the rage cost high. It is a guaranteed crit and gives a larger shield amount than any random crit will. This one is certain to be affected by mastery.

Now your damage rotation has a definite affect on your rage gen and hence how often you can get off the shield with Maul.

FR is in competition for rage still, but since you have a choice of preventing damage or repairing damage, it is a better decision to have to make. If they add back in Enrage so you can use Maul right now pull (say it gives a free Maul when used) and you can get a decent starter amount of threat and some defense going.

As a side note, I have this silly naming scheme going on in my head of the skill being called Savage Defense like it was in the past, but the shield being called "Bloody Fur".

Anyways, this is a split between being soak tanks and the old dodge mechanics where we didnt take damage.

(Antaris) #1008
I would like force of nature as a guardian druid. I would also like cenarion ward as a talent options, and dream of cenarius from wod.

I would also like to see brambles become an on use ability that did a lot more damage/absorb but had downtime, that way we could use it strategically at the start of a pull or as a mini cooldown.

I would like to see the double thrash proc made an option too, that felt so fun when it procced and played into pulverize quality of life too.

(Faildead) #1009
Just came back to playing Guardian druid since Legion release. In order of importance.....

1) Need slow back on thrash, being the only tank without a slow is ridiculous in M+.

2) Rage of the Sleeper back or Berserk back would be a welcome addition

3) Bear traits need a good strong look at them, most are incredibly ineffective in ALL situations damage or survival.

4) Wild charge or at least hte bear form version of it should be baseline. Warrior charge is... and while the specs should be different, having a tank that cant go cat form, has to take ursols for a fight, basically means we are the actual least mobile class in the game as a tank...

These changes wouldnt make the spec interesting or really fun but it would make them able to to be used for the long-time bear players like me that love the spec for how it was in BC.

What would make it fun, promote the fluidity of druid, Give a CD that makes it so we have all affinities for 30 seconds, give us back tranq ( a weaker version). Make it so druid players feel like druids shifting into all their different forms to be useful to the raid.

(Caféaulait) #1010
Sigh..

I already unsubbed and it's a shame because blizzard doesn't want to listen to feedback when given.

(Nightsage) #1011
3 changes for PTR. More needed changes. Post over 1000 messages long and still not 1 blue response......

(Yime) #1012
Thrash snare.

Rage of the Sleeper.

Bigger aura buff than the one already on PTR.

Wild Charge baseline.

And some kind of additional utility that even slightly approaches the dungeon utility of Blood's grip/mass grip combo, Vengeance's silence sigil, chains sigil, versatile CC and extreme mobility, Brew's Ring of Peace, versatile CC and high mobility, Protection Paladin's constant silences and versatile CC, and Protection Warrior's... uh, never mind about Warriors. Currently we're a big slow bag of meat who can occasionally sneeze stuff to move it (and we give up our only stun to do so).

Death Knights got our battle rez and can make themselves immune to knockback (taken away from us in BFA) in addition to the vast amount of mob control they have. We need something of comparable power and versatility to grip or a short CD ranged silence (bring back Faerie Fire!) or we just can't compete.

(Lecro) #1013
10/31/2018 07:19 AMPosted by Caféaulait
Sigh..

I already unsubbed and it's a shame because blizzard doesn't want to listen to feedback when given.


I've unsubbed as well. My impression from viewing the forums, wow Reddit, and my guild & friends is that Blizz needs to pull off 8.1 correct to fix their failures in BfA launch or this xpac has failed. The most baffling thing is their failure to do some community outreach/ damage control in threads like these to reassure the community that the feedback is being heard.

I had assumed we wouldn't hear any substantive blue posts this week due to Blizzcon, but to then read the general Blue post that Blizzcon really wont discuss 8.1 at all, but instead focus on damage control with "future hype". None of that really matters if they continue to fail at basic class design and balance. I can't think 8.1 is anywhere near ready given the lack of addressing the numerous class/spec failings and if it is, whoa boy are they tone-deaf.

(Providence) #1014
I barely play my druid anymore, I just do one key for a chest, and any azerite emissaries if they pop up.

I've been playing this paladin for about a week and prot just feels so much better to play. Burst damage cooldown, cleanse and heals usable while tanking, aoe snare, self sustain.. it's also fun.

Although paladins have been pruned too since the last time i played mine, so who knows how long this will keep me interested.

Hopefully blizzard gets their act together and adds some fun gameplay back to all the pruned specs. More baseline abilities, and more fun and cool talents.

(Repsyclops) #1015
We need the following

-Wild Charge baseline
-Give us mass root for 5 seconds thats not breakable by damage. This will help in dungeons.
-damage increase

(Glastian) #1016
I just noticed that this post has been posting good Bear dialogue for over a thousand posts now. GJ Blizzard with ignoring your players providing constructive feedback. GG WP.

(Urigellanozd) #1017
they are probably too busy getting booed by the audience.

(Providence) #1018
- mobile phone game
- re-release warcraft 3
- re-release classic wow

well done blizzard! I can hear all the players re-subbing as we speak!

(Believable) #1019
11/02/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Providence
I barely play my druid anymore, I just do one key for a chest, and any azerite emissaries if they pop up.

I've been playing this paladin for about a week and prot just feels so much better to play. Burst damage cooldown, cleanse and heals usable while tanking, aoe snare, self sustain.. it's also fun.

Although paladins have been pruned too since the last time i played mine, so who knows how long this will keep me interested.

Hopefully blizzard gets their act together and adds some fun gameplay back to all the pruned specs. More baseline abilities, and more fun and cool talents.


100% on the same boat with you.

I got my AOTC on my Guardian but I've since switched over and it's like.. Night and day different. Sad as heck, honestly, because I love my bear, it just doesn't feel like I contribute to anything.

(Naros) #1020
11/02/2018 11:57 AMPosted by Repsyclops
We need the following
-Wild Charge baseline
-Give us mass root for 5 seconds thats not breakable by damage. This will help in dungeons.
-damage increase
While this will certainly help, the reality is that it just is not anywhere close to sufficient to allow Guardian to a competitive tank in the Mythic+ end-game space.

We also require:

- Snare applied via Thrash
- Rage of the Sleeper or equivalent offensive/defensive ability
- Frenzied Regeneration actually feel rewarding rather than being an empty GCD
- Worthwhile Guardian azerite traits
- Potentially a buff to Ironfur - less rage reqd, longer duration, or more armor

I've come to the conclusion that doing Mythic+ on the Guardian is just a complete chore, it lacks any fun, and only hinders the group. I can easily complete M10 keys on my Brewmaster who is 10 items below my Guardian without a single issue, but replace the Monk with a Guardian and its just a complete nightmare.

(Dyzfunktion) #1021
11/05/2018 08:11 PMPosted by Naros
While this will certainly help, the reality is that it just is not anywhere close to sufficient to allow Guardian to a competitive tank in the Mythic+ end-game space.

We also require:

- Snare applied via Thrash
- Rage of the Sleeper or equivalent offensive/defensive ability
- Frenzied Regeneration actually feel rewarding rather than being an empty GCD
- Worthwhile Guardian azerite traits
- Potentially a buff to Ironfur - less rage reqd, longer duration, or more armor

I've come to the conclusion that doing Mythic+ on the Guardian is just a complete chore, it lacks any fun, and only hinders the group. I can easily complete M10 keys on my Brewmaster who is 10 items below my Guardian without a single issue, but replace the Monk with a Guardian and its just a complete nightmare.


I would agree to these also, maybe not all of them if we had to play the "bargaining" chip with the Devs.

A slow is most definite, running Tol Dag this evening with some guildies and I had to rely on my Hunt/Mage/Dk's to yank or stop/slow the humunoids from fleeing because I was unable to slow them on my home.

Rage is feel could be negotiated with for a simple dmg buff. Even playing with some high burst deeps in our groups, loosing aggro isn't something I have had much struggle with. Mostly anytime I lose a mob is when it's their mechanic to charge off, and I can yank em right back.

We've been saying it forever it feels like, but FR does need to be changed, whether GCD removal, or buff'd to feel better, but it's doable for the time.

Traits I feel like they can just shove up their blue butts. As bears we did fine before they came along, and can do fine with !@#$e ones. Having some would definitely add to our QOL and performance, but i'd settle for better class fantasy/rotation fixes before a trait fix/rework.

IF, not quite sure what i'd like more, longer dur or less cost, either imo would be sufficient to kind of streamline and benefit it's uses more.

I just wish we'd get more out of the Dev's than a dmg buff and 3 sec mention during Q&A's...

(BTW, where's our bear facts guy? I love reading those xD)