Guardian Druid Feedback


(Naros) #982
10/25/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Communism
I guess I just really don't care if I can Stampeding Roar more often? I feel like that doesn't really help my group DO anything. The range is small and mostly affects melee, which usually have their own mobility spells for whatever situation I'm trying to get them out of.

I think you have to look at it objectively and consider a variety of factors.

Perhaps the idea designers are considering is we use Roar as our Kite mechanism rather than a snare, it still creates a gap. By reducing its recharge time, we have access to it more often when we may need it. I'm not saying its the ideal choice here, but its certainly plausible.

There are also situations where being able to quickly break line-of-sight can be useful with certain M+ affixes or to get casters to move out of Sanguine without healing up a substantial amount when you don't have access to grips, typhoon, ring of peace, or any other position adjusting ability.

I also believe Stampeding Roar is useful in more fights in Uldir than just Zek'voz. In fact I believe its useful in all fights except Vectis. Think of it more like dash that doesn't shift us out of bear and it just happens to give a group bonus.

10/25/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Communism
Guardian needs more tools like that and less tools like... Hibernate and Remove Corruption that shift you out of bear.

That depends a lot on content design.

There are a few dungeons and/or encounters that constantly apply poisons to the tank or group and having access to Remove Corruption in bear to cleanse those makes us equally effective as a Monk or Paladin.

I grok that Hibernate is a bit useless right now, but that's no reason to write it off. Just because it does not have a purpose in the present doesn't mean it won't in any foreseeable future. All that depends on the content delivered.

(Caféaulait) #983
The biggest complaint is that these utilities that blizzard gave us FORCES the druid out of bear form, which is a risky move. Same goes for the bonus of having resto affinity, can't heal yourself with rejuvenation because it forces you out of bear form.

10/25/2018 05:42 AMPosted by Urigellanozd
Let's face it. We won't get that much needed spec overhaul in 8.1. We are stuck with this flavorless bland design. We won't get any useful utilities maybe a few numeric buffs like the dmg aura increase.

Thank you all for your constructive feedback and excellent suggestions but blizzard does not care. You can move along now there is nothing more to expect here.


We'll see... We're about to reach 1000 posts and hopefully that'll mean something to the development team.

(Shinrael) #984
10/25/2018 12:12 PMPosted by Caféaulait
The biggest complaint is that these utilities that blizzard gave us FORCES the druid out of bear form, which is a risky move. Same goes for the bonus of having resto affinity, can't heal yourself with rejuvenation because it forces you out of bear form.


Regarding the healing, keep in mind that casting most healing spells drops you out of Moonkin form as is... Cat and Bear dropping form isn't too unreasonable. Monks have similar risks since their heals are very weak and since it disables dodge they end up taking more damage than they heal....

Its really only Pally that can throw heals around. LotP/HotP is kinda their thing and their flash is alright if they can find the space to cast it, though it suffers from the same issues that Monk does, you take more damage from your loss of avoidance (no Block/Parry/Dodge) than you would actually heal.

All 3 specs can heal just fine if they can find the space to get away, and if anything Guardian is the superior of the three.

Hibernate/Cleanse on the other hand. Those should be castable in Animal Forms along with Roots....

(Tewa) #985
10/25/2018 03:20 AMPosted by Yime
The overall impression I get of those two talent rows -- and to be honest, a lot of Guardian talents in general -- is that other tanks get a decent library of baseline abilities and choose talents to improve them; Guardian gets a poor library of baseline abilities and chooses talents to fill that out with spells that feel in many cases less useful than what other tanks get for free.


If you look at tank design over the really long-term, it's because bears were last in line during the big tank revamps and then never got to the front.

Tanking used to be very different. Rather than attack to build resources for defense, Warriors & Druids gained rage from being attacked, and used that rage for offense. Not defense.

Then came Death Knights, and the "reactive tanking" idea. Blizzard decided to apply it to all other tanks as well, and started their tank redesigns:
1. They made DK's tank in Blood only (originally Frost & Unholy could tank, too).
2. They redesigned Paladins to the new tanking model.
3. They redesigned Warriors to the new tanking model.
4. They created Monks.

And that's where it happened. We never got the grand reworking that Paladins & Warriors did. Instead, they created Monks. And then Demon Hunters after that.

Essentially, the store closed right as we got to the front of the line.

(Shinrael) #986
10/25/2018 02:47 PMPosted by Tewa
10/25/2018 03:20 AMPosted by Yime
The overall impression I get of those two talent rows -- and to be honest, a lot of Guardian talents in general -- is that other tanks get a decent library of baseline abilities and choose talents to improve them; Guardian gets a poor library of baseline abilities and chooses talents to fill that out with spells that feel in many cases less useful than what other tanks get for free.


If you look at tank design over the really long-term, it's because bears were last in line during the big tank revamps and then never got to the front.

Tanking used to be very different. Rather than attack to build resources for defense, Warriors & Druids gained rage from being attacked, and used that rage for offense. Not defense.

Then came Death Knights, and the "reactive tanking" idea. Blizzard decided to apply it to all other tanks as well, and started their tank redesigns:
1. They made DK's tank in Blood only (originally Frost & Unholy could tank, too).
2. They redesigned Paladins to the new tanking model.
3. They redesigned Warriors to the new tanking model.
4. They created Monks.

And that's where it happened. We never got the grand reworking that Paladins & Warriors did. Instead, they created Monks. And then Demon Hunters after that.

Essentially, the store closed right as we got to the front of the line.


I'd say that Legion was their attempt to do that. However Mark of Ursol ended up being so strong that they just removed it. Now they've left the spec alone and stripped it of anything interesting, so its stuck in a really horrible position.

(Tewa) #987
10/25/2018 02:55 PMPosted by Shinrael
I'd say that Legion was their attempt to do that. However Mark of Ursol ended up being so strong that they just removed it. Now they've left the spec alone and stripped it of anything interesting, so its stuck in a really horrible position.


It's pretty obvious to me that Legion was NOT an attempt to fix bear. Instead, bear turned out to be good by accident, and it wasn't something that Blizzard wanted.

*There was no work done on the clunkiness of our toolkit being locked behind people form, which has been an ongoing issue that's 10 years overdue to be corrected.

*Instead of giving us new stuff, they just moved things to the artifact weapon (like our slow, and the Berserk replacement).

*The new thing we DID get - Mark of Ursol - was removed after the first tier in a panic move. Not adjusted, not nerfed, just REMOVED. Can you think of any other class abilities that were removed mid-expansion, like that?

*In BFA they just removed everything and didn't bother to even look at the spec.

There are other things, too. Like how Galactic Guardian was a 50% proc because Celestalon entered the wrong number into the database, and didn't "realize it" for over a month even though it's the only thing everybody was talking about. Or how they left us untouched most of Beta, then cut our mastery bonus in half just a few days before the pre-patch went live.

Bears only seem to be fun by accident. And then Blizzard takes swift action to correct their "mistake".

(Caféaulait) #988
Hopefully they introduce more weapons in 8.1, having 1 week chance to get a weapon from Uldir or M+ is kinda abysmal too.

(Lecro) #989
Amazing. 1000 posts since early beta and not a single class dev weighing in... even to say "this is what we're thinking, what do you say community?". Such a disappointment.

(Caféaulait) #990
^ was waiting to see what someone would say when we got to 1000 posts. Come on... haha.

Edited: Congratulations on the 1000 posts.

(Urigellanozd) #991
10/25/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Caféaulait
^ was waiting to see what someone would say when we got to 1000 posts. Come on... haha.

Edited: Congratulations on the 1000 posts.


that's a rather sad accomplishment. it should not take 1000 posts to fix a broken spec or at least to get a response from the developers

(Tenshirou) #992
10/25/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Tewa
Bears only seem to be fun by accident. And then Blizzard takes swift action to correct their "mistake".


This has been too true too many times.

Tewa's other points are true as well.

For example, in TBC, if you didnt have a paladin tank handy, it was possible to pull a large group, you just needed to use survival cooldowns and then hurricane, but obviously, you were in caster form for that.

Root and hibernation were also possible, BUT, caster form.

(Arbs) #993
I'm happy to see the Damage increase, Ursol's Vortex coming back for Guardians & reduced CD on Roar. Getting somewhere, but still alot more to be done.

(Arceval) #994
Where we currently stand:

  • Even with 10% damage buff across the board, we will still be consistently in the bottom two for every raid in encounter in BFA, ignoring the two with a half dozen data points:
    https://imgur.com/a/p71G8kg
  • Ursol's Vortex is a good tool, but it is not going to solve our impotence in M+ alone.
  • Stampeding Roar: The cooldown isn't the problem, the range is. It's almost like Legion had numerous fights based around highly mobile raids in which Stampeding Roar was a great buff for. Why not increase Cat and Bear roar together and bring some much needed utility to both specs?
  • The new trait Burst of Savagery is abysmal, clocking in somewhere in the bottom 6 for dps and offering nothing defensively without a healer smashing their buttons into you. Which continues to be a major issue for Bear. Aside from that it is almost a carbon copy of Incite the Pack, without the group effect, why is everything for Bear so god damn boring?


I was going to do a write-up about the current abilities and what problems lie in them, but I realized I did that already, 5 months ago, in the beta, in this thread, with no response or effort to address. So here's the link, I am not going to do that again. Surprise, almost every point is still as valid as the day I wrote it.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20763856304?page=2#post-26

I don't see a single change right now that even slightly modifies our position in the meta, and I am getting pretty f-ing sick of seeing "declined" in the M+ group finder.

(Yime) #995
Give Guardian and Feral Death Grip tbh.

Twisted Vines, or something, that pull the target in. DG is far too useful in far too many fights -- in both raids and mythic plus -- to be restricted to one class. Share it around!

(Soulofursoc) #996
They are only just acknowledging there are issues with the spec. I'm sure it will make it to the bottom of the long list of "specs that need reworkingℱ" by 9.3.

(Tewa) #997
There are quick things they could do to bring us up to par:
*Put the slow back on Thrash.
*Give us back Rage of the Sleeper.
*Bump our HP back so we're the highest HP tank like we always were.
*Take Bristling Fur off GCD to help our on-pull mitigation in M+.
*Bump our damage by 20%.

This wouldn't make us interesting, nor would it make us desirable. But we wouldn't be crippled anymore.

(Orsobovus) #998
10/27/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Tewa
There are quick things they could do to bring us up to par:
*Put the slow back on Thrash.
*Give us back Rage of the Sleeper.
*Bump our HP back so we're the highest HP tank like we always were.
*Take Bristling Fur off GCD to help our on-pull mitigation in M+.
*Bump our damage by 20%.

This wouldn't make us interesting, nor would it make us desirable. But we wouldn't be crippled anymore.

LATC/FON as a talent.

(Tewa) #999
I just want us to get back to where we were at the end of Legion. Not the most popular tank, not the best tank, but at least a respectable tank.

People keep asking too much of Blizzard. They don't have the staff, bandwidth, or creativity to do great things anymore. The best option are quick fixes that will take a minimum of effort, which is why I'm more focused on rewinding the clock a little bit to before we were gutted, rather than wishing for pie in the sky.

(Arceval) #1000
10/27/2018 05:29 PMPosted by Tewa

People keep asking too much of Blizzard. They don't have the staff, bandwidth, or creativity to do great things anymore. The best option are quick fixes that will take a minimum of effort, which is why I'm more focused on rewinding the clock a little bit to before we were gutted, rather than wishing for pie in the sky.
Most. Profitable. Game. In. History.

(Orsobovus) #1001
10/27/2018 05:29 PMPosted by Tewa
I just want us to get back to where we were at the end of Legion. Not the most popular tank, not the best tank, but at least a respectable tank.

People keep asking too much of Blizzard. They don't have the staff, bandwidth, or creativity to do great things anymore. The best option are quick fixes that will take a minimum of effort, which is why I'm more focused on rewinding the clock a little bit to before we were gutted, rather than wishing for pie in the sky.

Small indie company.