Guardian Druid Feedback


(Arceval) #962
10/23/2018 02:30 PMPosted by Caféaulait
Looks like new trait, another change to gory regeneration (whoopdie do), intimidating roar removed with a placeholder called: Nature's Control and stampeding roar CD reduced by 1/2.

Overall not really impressed with new trait: Burst of Savagery When Mangle benefits from Gore, it grants you 104 mastery for 5 sec and has a 15% chance to activate Gore.

"Yo dawg, I heard you like procs, so we put procs in your procs and added a proc to your procs that make you proc your procs more." - Confirmed Xzibit is the Bear designer.

I like how if you this has anti-synergy with Incarnation, as <4 target you are Mangle spamming, which doesn't generate Gore procs. Aside from just another mediocre stat proc, because 2 rows of buffs isn't enough, we can go deeper. Well thought out trait guys, just what Bears are looking for.

Edit *

Doing some quick numbers with a recent parse. 3 minute fight, 16 Gore procs used, given an addition 15% procs, so 18 total. 18*5 second buff = 90 seconds optimally, or 50% uptime. At 385 ilvl it's 470 mastery. So ~235 mastery for the full fight, at my sims thats 0.78 dps per mastery, so that is about 180 dps, or right down near the bottom of our trait list, just below Incite the Pack, which gives slightly more Mastery with slightly lower uptime, what "interesting" design...

Short answer, this will be damn near the bottom of our list of Azerite traits. Between Liberator's Might and Last Gift on this chart: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#druid_guardian?data_view=azerite_traits&type=trait_stacking&tier=3

(Arceval) #963
10/23/2018 04:01 PMPosted by Comfybundle
On the PTR, they gave bears Ursol's Vortex as a talent option on the Lv 30 row, which will be a nice utility.
Could be, but why are we having to talent for aspects of the class that are baseline elsewhere. Also this talent far outweighs all others on the tier.

Still more work to do here.

(Tewa) #964
Am I to understand that Ursol's is replacing Intimidating Roar in the level 30 row?

Because that isn't a good trade at all. Intimidating Roar is useful in M+ and also on some raid fights, like Zek'voz in the current tier.

If they want to dump a talent, get rid of that useless Tiger Dash.

I'm going to be really unhappy if Blizzard's solution to "fixing guardian" is to remove a useful ability.

(Brokenclaws) #965
#975 - Still no word from devs about the direction for Guardian druids. Perhaps they have forgotten about us.

(Wraithe) #966
10/24/2018 01:09 AMPosted by Tewa
Am I to understand that Ursol's is replacing Intimidating Roar in the level 30 row?

Because that isn't a good trade at all. Intimidating Roar is useful in M+ and also on some raid fights, like Zek'voz in the current tier.

If they want to dump a talent, get rid of that useless Tiger Dash.

I'm going to be really unhappy if Blizzard's solution to "fixing guardian" is to remove a useful ability.


I argued against Tiger Dash for all specs from the very beginning. But I got shouted down by all the "IT'S SO FAST!!!!" speed freaks who didn't consider that outside being a cool party trick it is pretty damned useless. Have yet to see a fight where I thought it was a better option than Wild Charge.

(Naros) #967
10/24/2018 05:36 AMPosted by Brokenclaws
#975 - Still no word from devs about the direction for Guardian druids. Perhaps they have forgotten about us.

They're apparently making changes to us on PTR so they haven't forgotten; they're just making poor decisions on how to implement said changes further hurting the spec rather than helping it.

They removed Intimidating Roar and replaced it with Ursol's Vortex, a 60 second option that allows us to apply a short-lived snare to multiple targets, kinda like Sigil of Chains.

This change is bad for multiple reasons.
  • Competes with Wild Charge and our only ranged attack does such poor threat that in any situation where adds spawn, it'll be up to the group to move inward to the tank for us to pick them up effectively. Roar might help cover the distance assuming we don't need it in the short-term but certainly doesn't feel like a well thought out competition of abilities imo.
  • Intimidating Roar had some usefulness where-as Tiger's Dash really does not. Rather than replace TD with UV, they elected to remove a useful ability for a useful one and leave something that serves little to no purpose.
  • Will the snare effect actually be useful on bosses or only trash? There are certain bosses that can be snared through other tank options like Keg Smash, Heart Strike, Consecration, and Thunderclap, so will Ursol's Vortex apply to those bosses as well or will they be immune all together given the fact you can't "pull-back" bosses?

If the design goal is not to return Bloody Paws as our Thrash permanent snare, then I think I would rather like to see Intimidating Roar be returned, Wild Charge made baseline, and Ursol's Vortex added to the Level 30 row if the designers feel there is a niche for keeping Tiger's Dash around. That gives a better alternative of choices for players to make on that row without necessarily impacting their ability as a tank to effectively pick-up mobs in a world where threat now matters.

(Caféaulait) #968
Speaking of talents, we still have Lunar Beam x.x

(Naros) #969
10/24/2018 01:09 AMPosted by Tewa
Because that isn't a good trade at all. Intimidating Roar is useful in M+ and also on some raid fights, like Zek'voz in the current tier.

If they want to dump a talent, get rid of that useless Tiger Dash.

If I had to wager a guess, I suspect TD has a niche - perhaps in PvP that players are currently using and it would impact their usefulness in those niches.

I agree, IR was also useful in M+ as well and replacing a useful M+ option with another useful M+ option certainly does not seem like the right course of action.

As I eluded to earlier, a better alternative would be to keep TD, keep IR, and make Wild Charge baseline and place Ursol's Vortex in place of charge. This way we actually have multiple choices to weigh for M+ benefit depending on the dungeon, weekly affixes, or whether our gear necessitates more kiting over face-tanking the trash in lower keys.

Talent rows are suppose to emphasize choice, and I really think having two M+ useful options to consider introduces far more choice, variety, and thought than their current design of that row.

(Naros) #970
10/24/2018 09:55 AMPosted by Caféaulait
Speaking of talents, we still have Lunar Beam x.x

The reality is I don't think they have any idea what could actually replace it. The other two options are so much better choices for damage mitigation.

(Naros) #971
I really don't understand the tank snare options in this game anymore. A Monk and Warrior can keep a set of mobs snared indefinitely (DR aside). A Paladin can obtain the same snare effect via a talent with no cooldown. A Death Knight is also able to based on rune availability with Heart Strike or talent DnD, which can be super OP with free DnD procs.

The only two specs which are incapable of this are DH and Guardian. I understand we don't want homogenization as a thing, I think we've already crossed that line.

I can respect the idea that Ursol's Vortex gives us a way to control mob movement in certain situations, but I question whether it being our only source of a snare makes adequate sense.

One can argue that the DH talent has a 1.5 minute cooldown and you're right. But they have also have far better self sustain and mobility than Guardian, so while they may have to talent into the snare, their baseline toolkit gives them options to deal with it even if they don't want a snare.

That's the rub to me to here.

I hope Ursol's Vortex is just the start of more changes that are to come, because if that is the only snare source we have; it really doesn't stack up in a world of "equals".

(Shinrael) #972
10/24/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Naros
10/24/2018 01:09 AMPosted by Tewa
Because that isn't a good trade at all. Intimidating Roar is useful in M+ and also on some raid fights, like Zek'voz in the current tier.

If they want to dump a talent, get rid of that useless Tiger Dash.

If I had to wager a guess, I suspect TD has a niche - perhaps in PvP that players are currently using and it would impact their usefulness in those niches.

I agree, IR was also useful in M+ as well and replacing a useful M+ option with another useful M+ option certainly does not seem like the right course of action.

As I eluded to earlier, a better alternative would be to keep TD, keep IR, and make Wild Charge baseline and place Ursol's Vortex in place of charge. This way we actually have multiple choices to weigh for M+ benefit depending on the dungeon, weekly affixes, or whether our gear necessitates more kiting over face-tanking the trash in lower keys.

Talent rows are suppose to emphasize choice, and I really think having two M+ useful options to consider introduces far more choice, variety, and thought than their current design of that row.


I don't care which is baseline, Ursol's or Wild Charge. Wild Charge (for both Cats and Bears) feels just so integral to how I play the spec, that being forced to spec out of it doesn't feel good. I'd rather it be made baseline for both Cat and Bear, and they bring IR back... but I'll take either.

(Shinrael) #973
10/24/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Naros
10/24/2018 01:09 AMPosted by Tewa
Because that isn't a good trade at all. Intimidating Roar is useful in M+ and also on some raid fights, like Zek'voz in the current tier.

If they want to dump a talent, get rid of that useless Tiger Dash.

If I had to wager a guess, I suspect TD has a niche - perhaps in PvP that players are currently using and it would impact their usefulness in those niches.

I agree, IR was also useful in M+ as well and replacing a useful M+ option with another useful M+ option certainly does not seem like the right course of action.

As I eluded to earlier, a better alternative would be to keep TD, keep IR, and make Wild Charge baseline and place Ursol's Vortex in place of charge. This way we actually have multiple choices to weigh for M+ benefit depending on the dungeon, weekly affixes, or whether our gear necessitates more kiting over face-tanking the trash in lower keys.

Talent rows are suppose to emphasize choice, and I really think having two M+ useful options to consider introduces far more choice, variety, and thought than their current design of that row.


I don't care which is baseline, Ursol's or Wild Charge. Wild Charge (for both Cats and Bears) feels just so integral to how I play the spec, that being forced to spec out of it doesn't feel good. I'd rather it be made baseline for both Cat and Bear, and they bring IR back... but I'll take either.,
10/24/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Naros
10/24/2018 01:09 AMPosted by Tewa
Because that isn't a good trade at all. Intimidating Roar is useful in M+ and also on some raid fights, like Zek'voz in the current tier.

If they want to dump a talent, get rid of that useless Tiger Dash.

If I had to wager a guess, I suspect TD has a niche - perhaps in PvP that players are currently using and it would impact their usefulness in those niches.

I agree, IR was also useful in M+ as well and replacing a useful M+ option with another useful M+ option certainly does not seem like the right course of action.

As I eluded to earlier, a better alternative would be to keep TD, keep IR, and make Wild Charge baseline and place Ursol's Vortex in place of charge. This way we actually have multiple choices to weigh for M+ benefit depending on the dungeon, weekly affixes, or whether our gear necessitates more kiting over face-tanking the trash in lower keys.

Talent rows are suppose to emphasize choice, and I really think having two M+ useful options to consider introduces far more choice, variety, and thought than their current design of that row.


I don't care which is baseline, Ursol's or Wild Charge. Wild Charge (for both Cats and Bears) feels just so integral to how I play the spec, that being forced to spec out of it doesn't feel good. I'd rather it be made baseline for both Cat and Bear, and they bring IR back... but I'll take either.

(Yime) #974
One of the worst things about Guardian's talent design is that we have two rows that are clearly intended to be for dungeon utility abilities, except that they are pretty terrible when compared to what other tanks get.

Row 2, practically everyone takes Wild Charge, which we used to have baseline and which Warriors still get to have baseline. Warriors also have Heroic Leap baseline and have a talent which enhances it; Vengeance has its own leap baseline, with a talent to enhance it; Prot Paladins have horsie baseline with a talent to enhance it etc. etc. etc.

On row 4 you can make decent arguments for taking Mighty Bash, Mass Entanglement or Typhoon, so in isolation this isn't such a bad row. But: many other tank classes have a single-target or multi-target stun baseline where we have to talent into it; and some other tank classes have multi-target mob control baseline (Sigil of Misery, mass grip) where we have to talent into it (at the cost of having a single-target stun at all).

The overall impression I get of those two talent rows -- and to be honest, a lot of Guardian talents in general -- is that other tanks get a decent library of baseline abilities and choose talents to improve them; Guardian gets a poor library of baseline abilities and chooses talents to fill that out with spells that feel in many cases less useful than what other tanks get for free.

(Urigellanozd) #975
Let's face it. We won't get that much needed spec overhaul in 8.1. We are stuck with this flavorless bland design. We won't get any useful utilities maybe a few numeric buffs like the dmg aura increase.

Thank you all for your constructive feedback and excellent suggestions but blizzard does not care. You can move along now there is nothing more to expect here.

(Antaris) #976
Ursols vortex and a 12% damage aura buff is a good start. It's not going to put guardian into a competitive position I dont think, but it's a start.

Bears still desperately need their thrash snare unpruned, and berserk as well.

(Naros) #977
10/25/2018 03:20 AMPosted by Yime
Row 2, practically everyone takes Wild Charge, which we used to have baseline and which Warriors still get to have baseline.

I would surmise that threat plays a significant role in that choice too.

Moonfire is no longer enough to firmly establish ranged threat on anything if your damage classes begin to attack it before it reaches you. Our only answer here is when someone accidentally pulls something unintended or a fight spawns in mobs in random areas, Wild Charge is the only real answer.

I think its also important to look beyond what the other tank classes have and for the designers to really sit back and dive into real class fantasy, which I firmly think Guardian has lost over the years.

A real world bear charges, so why must we be in position where we have to "talent" into something to experience that fantasy?

A real world cat can leap toward their prey, so why must a Feral druid "talent" into something to experience that fantasy?

10/25/2018 03:20 AMPosted by Yime
On row 4 you can make decent arguments for taking Mighty Bash, Mass Entanglement or Typhoon, so in isolation this isn't such a bad row.

I really believe Mighty Bash here should be baseline. I have never understood why this isn't something we have in our base toolkit. I again go back to class fantasy, a large bear can easily bash a target to a point of unconsciousness, so why must it be something we "talent" into it in the first place?

With that said, I also think Ursol's Vortex may make a better fit here in row 4. It is more like a hyrbid between Mass Entangle and Typhoon anyway.

I'm sure there are some arguments to be made about how great Vortex + Typhoon could be with certain affixes (e.g. sanguine) but I don't want to see Guardian's toolkit to a point where we have access to so much simultaneous utility that we begin to be viewed like Death Knights either.

If the two abilities compete and you feel as a tank you need Vortex, nothing stops you from bring a second druid for Typhoon, a Death Knight with grip, Monk with RoP, etc. It forces group choice which I believe is what we all would like to see more of in M+ anyway.

10/25/2018 03:20 AMPosted by Yime
The overall impression I get of those two talent rows -- and to be honest, a lot of Guardian talents in general -- is that other tanks get a decent library of baseline abilities and choose talents to improve them; Guardian gets a poor library of baseline abilities and chooses talents to fill that out with spells that feel in many cases less useful than what other tanks get for free.

I completely agree.

This design problem has been inherent for our spec for many expansions now. We clearly saw the lack of creativity during Legion when baseline abilities were pruned only to be made available as traits on the artifact. The designers may not see it this way, but that is the perception the community was left with.

(Naros) #978
10/25/2018 05:42 AMPosted by Urigellanozd
We won't get that much needed spec overhaul in 8.1. We are stuck with this flavorless bland design. We won't get any useful utilities maybe a few numeric buffs like the dmg aura increase.

Maybe not, but that is no reason to stop providing feedback and ideas. We may not see any fruit from this discussion in 8.1 or any 8.x patch for that matter, but if we simply hibernate and remain silent, then whatever befalls 9.0 is our own fault.

10/25/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Antaris
Ursols vortex and a 12% damage aura buff is a good start. It's not going to put guardian into a competitive position I dont think, but it's a start.

Exactly. I also think the reduction of Stampeding Roar to 60 seconds will be a nice change and QoL improvement, allowing us to once again provide some group utility.

10/25/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Antaris
Bears still desperately need their thrash snare unpruned, and berserk as well.

Hopefully in the next PTR build we'll see these crop up. It would definitely be a much welcomed change and give 5-man groups more of a reason to bring Bears.

(Antaris) #979
I forgot about the 1 min stampeding roar. That is a really good change that will allow us to help our group move for mechanics.

(Shinrael) #980
10/25/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Antaris
Ursols vortex and a 12% damage aura buff is a good start. It's not going to put guardian into a competitive position I dont think, but it's a start.

Bears still desperately need their thrash snare unpruned, and berserk as well.


Its a very barebones start. We need to make it clear that this is far from enough and still needs some serious iteration before 8.1.

Its great that they are paying attention to our pain points, but make no mistake, its far from what we need and won't solve most of the other issues that we have.

(Communism) #981
I guess I just really don't care if I can Stampeding Roar more often? I feel like that doesn't really help my group DO anything. The range is small and mostly affects melee, which usually have their own mobility spells for whatever situation I'm trying to get them out of.

It pops up in raids sometimes, for bosses like Zekvoz where the whole raid needs to move and it's nice for that I guess?

Something like Ursol's Vortex provides utility that has much more of an impact for me because it's useful in a lot more situations, especially 5 mans where tank utility can literally make and break their viability. Guardian needs more tools like that and less tools like... Hibernate and Remove Corruption that shift you out of bear.