The difference being a possible 12 rage… and the 40 rage it would costs for this maul to hit 2 targets.
Im sorry, what was your point again?
If I can aoe for a “cost” of 12 rage vs 40, Ill choose the 12.
lmao like… was this argument supposed to make me want to choose maul?
Yes… Lets choose the more expensive option!
You seem to have lost where I said have maul just do aoe damage, not 2 targets. May want to read my post.
And a swipe for 12 rage (14 post 8.2) or a maul that’s worth about 2.5x as much damage for 40 rage, with a 15 refund on IF due to Guardian’s Wrath, seems like a reasonable tradeoff.
Pretty obvious what my point was, since I said it: We have very high potential rage generation in AoE scenarios, we just don’t want to do it because doing anything besides thrash and swipe with brambles/GG is a significant DPS loss.
Having a way to convert rage into AoE damage would at least help make the rage generation talents, like blood frenzy, less of a DPS loss. Because you may not need the extra rage all dungeon, and can use maul on weaker packs.
In general, I doubt this will happen. I would expect, at best, a change to mangle to make us want to use it in AoE, or more realistically, that blizzard will just not care and stop at these. I just find it cute that you don’t appreciate the value of being able to convert excess rage to AoE damage.
Ok, but hers the problem With your math.
Swipe’s “rage cost” is assumed because were not using a gore proc’d mangle.
When you’re using maul…you’re also not using mangle. Remember back in math class when the teacher told you to remove the common denominators? you forgot that part.
Youre also assuming that mauls high ST damage will be simply converted into aoe damage of the same value? Wishful thinking. If our warrior friends have taught us anything with their comparable spells, revenge hits for roughly similar damage of thunderclap. If Blizzard does change Mauls damage to a cleave, you can bet that the damage will most definitely not stay the same.
Fixed that for you.
Unless you have insane luck with burst of savagery, you cannot use mangle on every ability. You must use swipe occasionally.
Swipe procs gore, but maul does as well. So there is no rage lost from using maul over swipe. You would trade potential gore procs from swipe for potential gore procs from maul. Since you must cast swipes, you will find times when you can maul without additional rage cost.
@ Assuming maul will do full damage. Yes, of course I’m assuming that, because that’s where it would be reasonably well balanced. Revenge is weaker, but revenge is cheaper, and does not have to compete with another AoE skill (revenge as an aoe rage dump vs. devastate, maul competes with swipe).
Sure it probably wouldn’t be, but it’s probably not going to happen anyway, so why not assume it would actually be reasonably balanced and functional?
@ Significant Threat loss: Brambles only does damage if you’re already being hit. GG is very delayed. These two are mostly used for the DPS increase, threat is only a minor bonus to each.
It’s funny that you’re trying to correct me by saying that those talents are taken for threat (in which case, why not take lunar beam for its insane healing threat), yet are saying that an AoE maul which would do substantial up front burst AoE would not be useful at all.
It’s really depressing that you guys have derailed the discussion into a long argument about Maul, of all things.
Can we talk about things (and abilities) that actually matter, instead?
Such as a bunch of bad should-be-hotfixes that miss the mark entirely?
We know blizz doesn’t really care about feedback, why not have some fun with what-ifs?
Plus, pointing out how awkward rage generation is in AoE situations, and that buffing mangle’s rage generated doesn’t help if we don’t want to cast it anyway, isn’t entirely off-topic.
And the golden rule for Warriors is to never dump rage on revenge. You wait for it to become free and fill gaps with devastate.
No different here.
That would imply that trading mangle casts for extra swipes (a similar rage for damage tradeoff) would always be in favor of mangle. Yet, people don’t do that.
There would be clear places where an aoe maul would be useful, just as there are clear places where prioritizing swipe over mangle is useful. They are really no different. The bonus to having an AoE rage dump would, again, be in allowing us to pick stuff like blood frenzy without completely destroying our damage.
Or we can continue having one viable talent build that can never have good rage generation because we’ll just never have damage.
How about starting a new thread, then? “Ahanss & Tical Argue About our Most Useless Ability”.
Followed by “Ahanss & Tical Go to White Castle”.
I mean… that’s what I’m saying. It’s a useless ability. A rage dump from a style of tanking that’s not been seen since cata.
Ahanss is using failed mathematics and wishful thinking to hype it up.
I am not hyped.
You know, everytime you’ve tried to point out “failed mathematics”, I’ve showed why I was actually correct. Math is my strong suit, at least.
If the ability is the most useless ability, it seems odd to not want to make it better. Especially if its so easy to do.
Maul is a relic of the old tanking paradigm, simple as that.
Under the old model, we gained rage from being attacked, and spent rage on Mangle/Maul/Swipe to generate threat.
When we switched to active mitigation, Mangle switched to generating rage, and Swipe lost its rage cost.
Maul was never updated to the new tanking paradigm.
It’s an ancient relic. End of story.
Blizzard just made it better! It’s now only 40 rage for a useless ability vs the previous 45!
Hallelujah!
Like we have been in the 1000 other threads that have been overlooked by blizzard for the past year?
Failed mathematics.
Blizzard…
Have you ever thought about this:
Why would any guardian tank every use Maul if it costs 40 rage and on a GCD? I dont even have Maul on a key bind.
Guardian druids do not scale better than any other tank. The numbers do not support you saying this repeatedly.
Or they just use revenge and spend the rage…?
For a new warrior, sure.
To spend rage as damage when you don’t need it for ironfur…?
We always need Iron fur. ALWAYS!
…Says the lvl60 twink.
Ya basic!
No, the rule of thumb is, only use revenge when it’s free, put spare rage to avoid capping into IP.
If you are comfortable, there’s no real need to be throwing rage into IP. If your option is devastate and IP, or Revenge, in a pack, why not revenge. Get some more damage pumping out. Kind of a bad comparison.
I actually like these changes, however I’d like to see the following things too:
Maintain “some degree” of the hp and defense of bear form when shapeshifting into other forms, temporarily. For example when shifting into cat form, maintain the hp and armor of bear form for 8s, cannot occur more than once every 30s. This would give me some basic ability to escape and not die instantly (mobility) without going out of theme and giving us a leap like the DH or warrior. It would also enable, temporary bursts of using cat weaving and getting away from big pulls to kite a bit. Ideally your rage could be converted to combo points or other resources for other forms…would be fun to manage and provide a lot of variety and utility. Also, energy gen and/or damage in cat form is kind of crap again given the buff to bear form damage. I honestly do more damage on packs, and almost the same on single target, in either form, mostly because getting to 5 combo points is too slow and there are no stacks on thrash in cat form.
I’d like to see incapacitating roar beefed up a bit and given a secondary effect or the disorient being “more useful” and/or longer lasting. For instance, ad a 3 to 5s slow to the ability after it breaks. Maybe increase the time to 5s, or better, make it not break on first hit so it acts more like a “soft stun”.
Honestly with a couple changes like that, along with what you’ve put into 8.2 already, and bear would be about equivalent with other tanks, just with different abilities.