“need rogue” every group
11 Likes
Too many groups with only 2 rogues
Blizzard please fix, I only want to see yellow names on DPS
Also please delete all non-druid healers and all non-warrior tanks since you clearly don’t give a f*ck about tuning or balance anymore, thx
10 Likes
Well cry babies constantly said “vanilla was the best”, and only warriors could effectively tank in vanilla.
8 Likes
So start your own group with “no rogues necessary”.
1 Like
Not really the point. His point is that they bring so much dps and utility, especially with shroud, that they are pretty much have to be brought to be competitive. Sure for a +6 who cares but higher keys they are kind of necessary. Wanting a r druid healer is nice and wishful. You need a rogue. Heck, as much as the meta frustrates me there are dungeons I would just leave the group before they start if they filled up without a rogue.
4 Likes
And now 90% of the M+ pug population that was around 2 weeks ago is gone
Which means that those who did the mountain of tedious vanilla grind and have no interest in classic now have nothing to play
Congratulations blizz, though I suppose this was their intention, why bother ‘fixing’ retail WoW before patch 9.0 if there is no one playing ?
1 Like
The only dungeon where shroud skips are especially useful is Shrine. All the rest can easily be done without shroud with invis pots as another option.
4 Likes
It’s more than shroud. If casters in particular a class like warlock wasn’t all around garbage then rogues wouldn’t be dominating the MDI scene.
The problem is systemic with MDI. Poor planning on class design and encounter design. It’s as if neither of these were communicated inside Blizzard HQ. For example how caster comps are supposed to deal with the ooze room in KR.
- Too much mobility required for turret classes. If turret classes are to exist then mobility requirements need to be tuned way down.
- Too much focus on interrupts. The same logic as above. If interrupts are going to be this important then everyone needs them.
- Too much focus on timers. This grooms everyone in taking the BIS DPS classes, which are rog / DH / DK given the circumstances and the amount of trash.
Really though I think most of the problem is the collision between class design and encounter design.
12 Likes
Coupled with the sad reality that big portions of both teams don’t extensively play the game outside of basic testing
Such as someone on the team voicing the opinion (after sufficient playing THE ACTUAL M+ KEY WITH THESE AFFIXES) that the combo of spit gold on first boss KR combined with grievous affix is an incredibly stupid idea
Similarly whoever came up with the constant damage aura upon standing still on the second boss of sisters in waycrest, did it ever cross their mind that it would be horrible to heal on anything BUT a resto druid ?
5 Likes
Just let us use invis pots without putting our combat pots on cooldown. Easy fix. Until then, I’ll be bringing a rogue in every key I run.
2 Likes
Changing pots wont give you rogue AOE dmg burst, AOE sustained, great single target, gouge, vanish, tricks of the trade, cloak of shadows, cheat death and distract.
3 Likes
While rogue does have amazing utility, their AoE is nowhere near what it used to be and can be replaced by other classes now. Their single target is absolutely nothing to write home about. Tricks is great for snapping, skittish, and for cannons in TD but can be replaced by a hunter.
Shroud is the biggest time saver they offer.
4 Likes
If you think shroud is the only reason to bring a rogue, im certainly glad im not in your groups.
2 Likes
Did I say that shroud was the only reason to bring a rogue? Rogues are great, but shroud is by far the MAIN reason to bring them since the outlaw nerfs came through.
If you remove shroud from rogues, they would go from absolutely mandatory in high keys to a nice addition to a M+ team.
5 Likes
All those listings should say “Looking for GOOD rogue”, because 95% of the rogues I bump into are garbage, at any level below 17 or 18. Too many fotm rerolls.
5 Likes
Yes and that’s why I and others have suggested to subtract a large score amount (-500 to -1000) from a rogue’s total score to get a more reasonable estimation of their true competence and experience relative to a non-meta choice such as DPS warrior
The same goes for resto druids in season 3, especially if their score history has no score for season 2 (ie. reroll alert)
1 Like
That’s kind of an absurd solution to the problem you’re having. You’re doing lower keys and that bracket is absolutely flooded with people of every class that have a combination of inflated ilvls from handout gear and little to no M+ experience. I’m sure that bracket is extra flooded with rogues from how well they do on the top end.
Once you start pushing beyond 15s, where it’s no longer just people trying to get an achievement, but doing it for the pure sport of it, the number of unskilled players is dramatically lower.
I’ve been running 15s and higher since the season started, and not only do I rarely see a second rogue in the group, I rarely see anyone playing badly. Better still, there’s rarely any grief, sass, quitters, leavers, etc.
Super unfair to just assume every single player of a class is a moron and deserves some kind of an IO tax. Almost every rogue I’ve ever grouped with has played at a level their IO would suggest. What you’re experiencing has more to do with a large percentage of the player base that doesn’t raid or do M+ regularly, but have ridiculous item levels, wanting to do content that will give them an upgrade – combined with many fotm rerolls because of rogue’s MDI performance.
If you group with bad rogues, remember their names. Don’t group with them anymore. Because sometimes, you’re going to want a rogue, and good luck finding one with a 2300 IO that will qualify for your 13.
4 Likes
‘If you group with bad rogues, remember their names.’
So pretty much every rogue encountered in a +10-13 bracket ? Since they all seem to never use KS, CS, gouge, BtE, feint, vanish and never ask when to shroud and also a significant portion of them somehow do 15k DPS at ilvl 430-440+ ?
In comparison to even havoc DHs (who also have a justifiably bad reputation) the amount of terrible pug rogues is staggering, and as I mentioned this problem is currently developing in the resto druid population
And no I don’t expect nor want a 2300 score rogue for my +13 run because they will ragequit at the slightest deviation from what they expect in their organized premade voice chat group (the group that got them to that score), but if I invite a 1-1.3k score melee DPS of almost ANY other class/spec (except maybe havoc DH as mentioned) I can have a decent assurance they will be competent to time the key
1 Like
Yeah man. That’s pretty much the only available solution to this problem and every other PUG M+ problem (quitters, and such). There’s not going to be a better solution unless they implement some kind of database in game you can use to catalogue folks you don’t want to group with. Make a list? Dunno what else to tell you.
If all the rogues you group with suck, then don’t take rogues into your groups.
If you’re not going to take a 2300 IO rogue to a 13, then you’re not going to find a qualified rogue using your proposed IO tax. You’d want a rogue at 1700-2200 to get the 1200 IO you’d ideally want for a 13.
Those are pretty much your options here. 1) Don’t take rogues; 2) Only take rogues who have 500-1000 more IO than they need to do your key and will not have the patience for it; or 3) take a rogue with reasonable M+ experience and score into your group that you haven’t previously grouped with and know they suck, and hope they don’t suck.
I’d go with option 3. That’s pretty much what the rest of us do in the M+ PUG scene.
I feel like the importance of rogues to most keys has been nerfed this tier at least though. Emissary placements make shroud far less predictable than in the past 2 tiers, and in pugs, spur of the moment shrouds rarely go well. And the nerfs to outlaw have brought their damage in line with other classes now, so it’s less mandatory. I think a lot of people are still operating with last tier’s mindset. Remember, MDI is all about speed running, not pushing the highest keys you can manage, so it’s a very different goal.