Glimmer of Light


(Arnath) #23

To late.

Take one look at Holy Paladin feedback since this expansions launch and it has been overwhelmingly negative.

You removed heaps of our gameplay going into Legion, kept our spec on life support via our Artifact, but then you removed the Artifact going into BFA and we have been left with gameplay so dull and boring that it’s nearly nonexistent.

The reason the Glimmer Build is so popular is because it’s the only gameplay we have left.

Glimmer Build is the only thing keeping Holy Paladins sane this expansion, we have so many flawed design elements, dead talents, and a slow, boring, unreliable baseline gameplay that of course we would gravitate to the Glimmer Build.

Our Mastery is horrible and punishing, our reliance on crit is unbearable, chain casting long slow Holy Lights is maddening, our Aura talents are dead besides Devo and that doesn’t show on meters so it feels worthless…

Glimmer Build is problematic because it highlights the flaws in the baseline design of our spec this expansion. So you have two choices, leave Glimmer Build alone until next expansion where Holy Paladins can finally get the long overdue spec redesign it desperately needs. Or nerf the Glimmer Build and fix us now.


(Arnath) #24

Take Glimmer of Light and make it our new Mastery.

That way we finally have a good Mastery that has interesting gameplay, it plays into our core cleave healing Beacon game design, and it is balanced around the Mastery stat so were sacrificing another stat to make it work.


(Simca) #25

I’m a little confused. Why is everyone in this thread on both sides of the conversation saying that Holy Paladin’s normal healing style is awful?

It was generally well-liked in Legion, and it’s almost identical in BFA. Yes, we lost a few legendary options that added additional choice (Marad’s made LotM slightly viable in some situations, the talent ring allowed Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger to be taken at the same time), but the core gameplay is the same. Cast Holy Shock, Judgement, and Light of Dawn on cooldown. Spend Infusion procs. Weave other heals in-between. It’s very basic, but it always has been. This is actually one of the more complex versions of it. The complexity comes from properly using cooldowns and utility spells - just like it always has.

Is everyone’s increasing disdain for this playstyle just because it’s been the same for a very long period of time and people want change to their playstyle every once in a while to make things feel fresh again?

Edit: I forgot that the removal of Beacon of the Lightbringer makes the mastery even more tedious and annoying than usual. So that is a downside over Legion in the ‘choice’ department (a lot of people took Faith or Virtue anyway but it was nice to have the option).


(Drezwazluz) #26

With a vastly lower chance to crit, and the change to secondary scaling and changing 3 slots to non-secondary items drastically reducing secondary stat amounts.

Because before Glimmer in 8.1, all throughout Uldir, hpal was consistently one of the least liked and weakest healers. We ran through three different healers who couldn’t stand it after the legion-bfa changes.

Glimmer doesn’t just make it strong, it makes it actually enjoyable.


(Holymonky) #27

Thanks for this, I’m really enjoying the Glimmer playstile.

I agree with most of the things described in the OP, and I’m glad that the Dev team is recognizing that players are enjoying this playstile and understanding which are the key areas that might cause issues or make this spec a bit “broken” (like the mana consumption part).

Glad to hear this, we could argue all day here if the build is overpowered or not but in the end hard data will be what decides that, I’m glad to hear the Devs are open to do “small tweaks” if needed but keep the playstyle around.


(Arnath) #28

BFA healing is horrible and is nothing like Legion.

In BFA we are significantly slower, our crit is lower so less Infusion procs meaning less fast Holy Lights, making the chain casting Holy Lights more painful.

We lost Second Sunrise, and Divine Purpose’s new position made it less desirable (until the new Glimmer Build) thus adding to the slow gameplay.

Light of the Martyr lost all its benefits and is now almost never worth using. We lost our Artifact spell, and Aura of Sacrifice (essential a healing spell cooldown) was also removed. That’s like loosing three baseline healing spells, its worse when you considered going into Legion we lost Holy Power, Word of Glory, Holy Radiance, and Daybreak. That is seven spells/mechanics gutted from this spec in a very short time frame.

Our Mastery introduced in Legion was always terrible but it is worse in BFA because we lost the Lightbringer talent, and we lost Artifact mechanics like The Light Saves and Power of the Silver Hand.

BFA healing is similar to Legion, just slower and more boring with less spells to press and less procs to watch. It plays like a slightly faster Vanilla Holy Paladin. It’s horrible.

The Glimmer Build is great because it kinda recaptures the Legion gameplay.


(Sigmar) #29

I’d be stoked if glimmer became our new mastery


#30

Emphasis mine. Just came into the thread to double down on this specific point, as it is basically how I generally feel about baseline Holy Paladin gameplay.

This slower pacing really came about with the change from 6 to 9s CD on Holy Shock, and it’s something I still miss to this day. This was made up some by the double crit rate modifier on Holy Shock in Legion, which basically guaranteed IoL once you had enough gear. In BFA however, that was brought back down to a flat 30% crit rate without putting the Holy Shock CD back to 6 seconds, which is where these longer gaps of just hard casting Holy Light come from.

I do recognize that the last time we had a 6s Holy Shock (WoD iirc), we also had Holy Power and WoG/LD as finishers as part of our core kit, so the lower CD wasn’t the only thing that helped with pacing and breaking up the overly repetitive Holy Light chains. I point this out, however, to highlight the current issues that the Glimmer of Light build solves.

The core gameplay loop feels slow and repetitive, and a mechanic-sized hole can be felt. Glimmer of Light as a whole build has certainly helped to solve both of those issues (if only for this expansion) by providing some interesting gameplay that that promotes pushing a variety of meaningful buttons at a good pace (i.e. not just a chain of long-cast Holy Light spam), and gives a bit more import back to Holy Shock outside of a crit (similar to how Holy Shock gave Holy Power, regardless of crit, which we turned into healing later). I hope the design team is taking this to heart for updating Holy Paladin core gameplay in the future.

(For what it’s worth, my ideal version of Holy Paladin right now would be the WoD core gameplay with Holy Power, but with a mix of Legion/BFA Talents.)


#31

Thanks, I do love the melee focused Holy Paladin up in the thick of things, please try to keep the spirit/play style of it around in the future post 8.2. Also when can we get our Uther 2hander/Legion style 2h weapons for Holy Paladins back, thats only thing Glimmer is missing :stuck_out_tongue:


(Simca) #32

Yeah. You and the poster you quoted are definitely right about the core problems with the specialization as it is now. It does feel slow. Higher critical rate or a lower cooldown on Holy Shock would improve the specialization quite a bit. The talent changes made in BFA did take the specialization backwards (with the exception of the Aura of Sacrifice removal, since that was a low-skill alternative to Devotion once people realized you just macro it into the Artifact ability in order to maximize its usage).

The general core of the specialization is still the same, though. The changes to core mechanics in BFA were mainly number tweaks or reductions to player choice and optional builds. If anything, BFA proved how devastating a single number tweak can be to the feel of a specialization (Holy Shock’s critical rate).

The biggest problem I have with Glimmer of Light is the reliance on Crusader’s Might as a primary talent choice. I like Crusader’s Might in general - I actually take it in most content right now in the game. That’s because when there’s downtime and low healing required, I’m going to be Crusader Strike-ing anyway. The bonus cooldown on Holy Shock is both a DPS and Healing increase for this reason, especially in dungeons. I don’t like being forced into Crusader Strike for the primary healing rotation, even under high stress situations. I also dislike having to ‘prime’ the raid for Glimmer bursts constantly even when nobody is taking any damage just because somebody might take damage 20 seconds from now.

The Glimmer playstyle is different, and it’s faster. I just don’t know that I’d agree that it is consistently fun.


(Greenskin) #33

It’s a super fun build I hope it sticks around. It’s cool that there’s 2 different types of holy paladins and azerite that really changes playstyle.


(Taeldoriàn) #34

It’s not identical to legion. FoL and HL switched places. Outside of IoL, HL was our main healing ability that we’d use which made the spec very slow in uldir. On top of that, our ST heals were nerfed so pressing HL/HS didn’t feel good either.

AC itself is an okay CD in regards to functionality but it didn’t work with our mastery which made mastery a stat we wanted to actually avoid with that build. AC also semi-smart heals which means it will prioritize people injured over people not injured but it won’t prioritize the most injured which isn’t the most helpful. It’s a really good tank CD as they should never die while AC is up due to beacon transfers.

Glimmer offers a higher skill ceiling compared to the previous build. There’s more min/maxing to do and it requires us to pay much more attention. The spec is also a lot faster due to keeping CS on CD, reducing the cd of HS/LoD and spamming HS. This gives us an entire “rotation” that’s generally always active while allowing us to fill with IoL FoL/LoD as needed whereas before you were mainly pressing holy light outside of IoL/HS and AC. Not to mention HS crit chance was reduced quite a bit which made IoL a lot less common so that slowed down the spec as well. This build has much more to do.


(Taeldoriàn) #35

They’re widespread at high end because they’re healing is pretty niche however we saw a lot of fights that benefitted resto shaman. I’m not saying they’re bad or even weak, I’m saying it’s hard for most healers to compete with disc/Hpal right now and that should be monitored.

I agree that glimmer has made Hpal fun, that doesn’t mean it isn’t OP though. I don’t want them to touch it right now unless they have the time to fully dedicate to making our spec better and more interesting. Glimmer is OP when you look at it from a trait standpoint, there’s no other trait in the game that contributes this much to any class.

That’s not to say it should get nerfed, moreso that other classes should have the opportunity to see traits similar to this. Enhancement shamans did and blizzard basically deleted it. So if they’re going to leave glimmer alone then they should do it for everyone that has a trait performing similarly imo. You can’t just massively nerf one specs trait for performing well while allowing a different spec to keep a trait that’s much stronger, that’s the very definition of a double standard.

TLDR: I’m glad they aren’t touching it right now, that’s probably the best decision for the spec as a whole. However, it’s certainly OP for a trait so if it’s going to stay other classes should get the same treatment if they have a trait that impacts their spec as much as glimmer.


#36

I have mained healer for some time now & very often switch from healer to healer through out tiers. In BFA, I played Priest in Uldir, R. Shaman in BOD, and Holy Pal in Crucible. I plan on continuing to play my holy paladin through the rest of the expantion due to how fun I think Glimmer of Light build is. My paladin has been the most fun and face pased spec I’ve ever played, again, thanks to the Glimmer build! So, thank you for allowing it to stick around.

I think it brings a really neat factor to the table that, all though popular, it is a build that you choice to take (or not) and it completely changes your play style/talents/stats. Very unique and I LOVE that. I have felt a great sense of happiness helping people (through PMs) on tips on how to play the Glimmer build, when asked. It has more to learn since its played very differently and in my opinion, has a higher skill cap.

I do agree that you shouldnt need 3 peices to play it optimaly but, if you guys buffed it, it would only make it over powered. I think considering the skill required and learning curve, its balanced and fun, at the moment. It also alows the paladin to throw in more damage and that feels really really good.
Sorry, im rambling!
Thanks for not changing it. :slight_smile:


#37

Couldn’t agree more. Uldir every class was pretty fresh so scaling wasn’t a big deal. And paladins had the 750 crit that made the base build pretty viable. they were on the lower end and quite boring but they were holding on for dear life with devo and the 750 crit. Early BoD showed that Paladins were pretty bottom tier but no one cared because “mah utilatais!!!”

Glimmer brought back an insanely fun class and if it gets broken, i probably will stop healing because everything else is boring.

nah… our mastery sucks and we’re on par with a lot of other healers. We’re not overly too powerful.

We have our downsides.
Mastery is garbage and devo is pretty niche just like spirit or bubble… other healers have much better HPS throughput cds.
We have to be in melee and are susceptible to melee mechanics and plenty of fights are not melee friendly in BoD. If we get out of melee range and can’t crusader’s strike our hps drops significantly.
Outside of our wings cooldown out trough put is not that great. we have probably the best set up burst CD right now if someone is skilled enough to pull it off but that doesn’t mean it should be nerfed.

Pallys hate devo, and mastery. if you nerf the glimmer build and make it mediocre then you’ll see pallys drop off.

it’s fine where it is so lets all agree to make it baseline and move on with our lives k? :slight_smile:

I agree with this. Azerite was supposed to bring in uniqueness to classes and for some reason early on it scared blizzard maybe… who knows. I’m just glad they have the fore site to leave glimmer alone on a spec thats basically dead without it.


(Mangoe) #38

That’s fine, but can you buff non Glimmer builds some so we at least have somewhat viable options? Glimmer is the only way Paladin can compete in HPS at all. Without Glimmer, Pallie is a broken mess and sits at the bottom. Sucks relying on having 3 traits to do well and does not translate well into future expansions… It’s no fun to be forced into 1 playstyle 24/7 cause the alternative does way less hps and is more boring. To me, it’s not good or fun spec balance when the top 100 logs for every single boss is just 100 carbon copies of the same talent/azerite setup. I’d like to see at least some buffs or reworks to traits, talents or abilities that Glimmer builds don’t use, please.

Then maybe think about a way to make Glimmer (perhaps a nerfed version) baseline in the future, maybe make it our mastery instead of the garbage one we currently have. Also like to see something done about Devo Aura but that’s another topic I guess haha.

One last thing I’d like to highlight is complete reliance on Glimmer, with a weak base toolkit, creates a problem in mythic+ because getting good HPS with Glimmer relies on Glimmering 10+ players during CDs and thus healing a ton of people at the same time over and over, while obviously you can only hit 5 in dungeons. This means, while the damage is good, Pallie hps in dungeons is pretty dang weak compared to raid, especially outside Wings, even with Beacon of Virtue (which then makes your tank healing awful). On tough healer affixes/tough tryannical bosses you very quickly get into holes where you have to spam Flash of Lights, which is the last thing you want to be doing as a Glimmer Pallie, and makes you go oom pretty quick.

While a Resto Druid can do basically the same hps in dungeons as raids because of their mastery and almost never go oom, Holy Pal hps falls off hard with much fewer targets. Holy Pal is also hampered by having to melee (Crusader’s Might, mastery) to do decent HPS, which can be very punishing in some dungeons or outright impossible if you try the all to popular all melee comps. Healing high mythic+ on my Resto Druid is absurdly easier than my Holy Pallie, and Im 2370 io. Buffing non glimmer builds to be more focused around healing fewer targets for more, and less reliant on full melee uptime could help here.


#39

Please make Glimmer our mastery and then balance/change the choices we have for the outer rings. It would/could open up so many build ideas instead of just glimmer for everything.


(Fookí) #40

don’t even get me started on trait nerfing- it’s actually a dps LOSS to use one stack of EP, and 2 stacks barely sits above single trait stacks of others:
https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#warlock_demonology?data_view=azerite_traits&type=trait_stacking&tier=3


#41

I couldn’t have said this better:

I would like to add that just one trait wasn’t nerfed for enhancement, it was two.

Speaking of traits that are questionable, why is Lightning Conduit still a thing? It is largely considered to be one of the worst traits Enhancement has. This trait suffers from several factors, that even if it was an increase in aoe, it would never be taken. Those factors are things like bad procs on Stormbringer, the need to constantly maintain the debuff on multiple targets and that in most scenarios the targets die too fast for that dot to actually do anything.


#42

But mostly it just does no damage.