Glimmer of Light


(Sigma) #1

One topic that hasn’t appeared in our posts about the PTR, but is worth briefly discussing: so far, we’re not planning to heavily change Glimmer of Light in 8.2.

Outline of some relevant facts as we see them:

  • The Glimmer build is a significant “flip” from the otherwise standard build. It changes talents (Holy Avenger, Crusader’s Might, and no Avenging Crusader), as well as stat priorities.
  • It is a fun and unique build to play, with a lot of player agency in manipulating Glimmer spread and timing.
  • It is a bit rotationally “broken” but not completely. The biggest concern is that Crusader Strike has a very high priority, which makes mana much less important.
  • Holy Paladin moved up in meters in high-skill contexts (Mythic) since the build became popular, but not drastically.
  • There is a lot of pressure to obtain specific Azerite pieces because of widespread recommendations to play the build.
  • A few minor concerns worth mentioning: It’s unideal that Infusion-buffed Flash of Light is sometimes skipped, the high amount of Glimmer in the breakdown devalues Int, and the playstyle is more similar to other healers than it is to traditional Holy Paladin.

Philosophically, when we add customizable systems and bonuses to the game, some player-discovered experience is exactly the sort of thing we’re hoping will happen. Even when we didn’t anticipate all the details of an optimized build—arguably especially when we didn’t anticipate all the details—it produces a chance for players to explore something cool and rewarding. Almost by definition, those situations are at least slightly imbalanced or slightly broken, which is acceptable as long as they’re not too imbalanced or too broken.

There’s a balance where cutting off the exploration too early ruins the fun of discovering it, but letting it go on too long gets to a point where players are less excited by the novelty of the new build and more bothered by imbalances or rotational problems. We want to keep an eye on that, but the preliminary look for 8.2 is that this is still a lively setup that people are excited to play. Any change would likely be a small tweak that’s not intended to change its status as a popular or recommended playstyle.

In the longer term, if we wanted to preserve this mechanic in the class in some way, we would have to solve some of the above issues in the process, especially the very low mana demands. But that’s something we can revisit later.


Anyone else hate the Glimmer build?
8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion
(Thrasius) #2

Glimmer has been a extremely fun build, and I’m happy to see that it’s going to be sticking around. Thanks!


(Rudezilla) #3

Primal Primer


#4

awesome :slight_smile:


(Jindhazi) #7

While keeping the Glimmer build in the game was the right choice, this shows a clear double standard. Primal Primer and Strength of Earth both had associated builds obliterated rapidly after they were discovered, with no explanation. It sucks feeling like the dev team cares less about my class than others.


#8

Why the double standard in regards to this? I’m speaking specifically about Enhancement Shaman in regards to Primal Primer and Strength of Earth. These were 2 emergent, player discovered builds thanks to the extra Azerite traits in 8.1.5 that provided alternate gameplay styles that were heavily nerfed at the beginning of BfD Mythic week.

It’s the same exact scenario. Players discovered new builds, except in Enhancement’s case they were slapped down before any real-world data was generated and neither build was given a chance to see if they ended up too powerful or not.

Some consistency in these kinds of changes would be greatly appreciated. If this is the attitude going forward, fine, but why does it feel like Enhancement is always sacrificed at the stake for the well-being of other specializations in Battle for Azeroth?


(Ryutiz) #9

i love the glimmer build, but its super disappointing to me that you guys are going to keep a strong build in this way but completely butcher other ones, like the steady aim build that marksman had with the lethal shots talent


(Taeldoriàn) #10

While I enjoy the glimmer playstyle a lot more than the previous playstyle with the standard build (AC/BF/etc) and don’t want to see it changed in a half-assed manner which would undoubtedly be what happens if it’s changed now I don’t think the double standard is a good thing here.

I remember the discussion around Enh shamans and the new build that was both fun and fairly powerful (but not OP) which was basically nerfed just a few days after it was found. Glimmer does way more for Hpals than Primal primer did for enh shamans, so if the goal is to have these systems allow for builds like this then that should be allowed for all classes.

To be clear I don’t want glimmer changed right now as I don’t think it would result in fully fleshed out changes and could do a lot more harm to the spec, I just disagree with the reasoning for keeping it considering Enh shamans didn’t get the same treatment.

Also, if it’s going to stay I’d take a look at other healers to ensure they can keep up. Glimmer is very strong when you take our entire toolkit into consideration (still strong even if you don’t) so healer balance needs to be monitored.


#11

Glimmer is fine.

It’s not OP.

Holy Priest is still the top healer and other healers are right on par with this Hpally build.

If anything this saved Hpally which was in a very poor state before.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/21#metric=hps

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/21#metric=hps&timespan=1000

You can see how low Hpallys were before with the old build in the second link.

I personally resubbed to play this build.

We still need to be in range of the boss and if any mechanics prevent that then we spam flash and burn mana.

please Blizzard leave this build alone and make it a part of next xpac…

only thing I think they need to do in regards to healers is buff Shamans honestly.

Edit: i do agree they never should have nerfed enh shaman though.


#12

I agree with the intent behind this change. Azerite was promised to be impactful and beyond legion legendary level of powerful when you stack the trait. However, within the context of healer balance and other similar azerite stacking situations I am very confused.

Firstly, Holy Paladins are extremely powerful right now. Looking at the 75th percentile in BoD and Cos, Paladin is either #1 or #2 in overall statistics in both the current raids, and they become stronger the higher the hps requirement. For example on the final 3 bosses in BoD, the gap between holy paladin and the second healer is quite large. This is also not even considering that holy paladins commonly take Devo Aura, and on fights such as Jaina that’s easily doing upwards of 8k+ hps that isn’t being counted on the hps meters.

With those facts in mind I’m rather confused at the comments about holy paladins being balanced. Holy paladins especially with the buffs to glimmer and visions of perfection being added will very clearly be #1 or #2 healer next patch be a considerable margin. They will only be challenged by how overpowered Premo is for disc priest.

Beyond Healer balance as other people have stated in this thread, why is glimmer allowed to be as impactful as it is, and not be changed? Enh shamans have cited their two azerite traits being nerfed into the ground without any data. Disc priest traits like Gift of Forgiveness and Sudden Relevation had similar treatments in the past as well.

I hope with the announcement that glimmer is staying as powerful as it is, other azerite traits will be buffed to the level of glimmer, or at the very least, be more than simple 2-3% hps gains.


(Drezwazluz) #13

This is a joke, right?


#14

Can we also get Legion Aura of Sacrifice back :slight_smile:


(Taeldoriàn) #15

I mean no. If you look at everything together we’re definitely closer to OP than any other healer. I’m not saying other healers aren’t close but we’re the best along with disc atm.

You’re comparing Hpal to Hpriest which is insane. Hpriest is all about HPS, they literally have nothing else. Horrible survivability, meh mobility, bad utility etc. We have great utility, great survivability and meh mobility ontop of having Devotion aura and Glimmer. HPS isn’t the only thing to take into account, there’s other factors as well.

I don’t want them to nerf or remove glimmer especially not now because it’ll just be half assed and end up hurting the spec. I just disagree with their reasoning for keeping glimmer when they deleted the Enh shaman build that was fun and strong (but not OP).

They also need to monitor healer balance. We aren’t insanely OP but other healers are falling behind. They could definitely tighten that up especially with resto shaman.


(Simca) #16

You’re kind of ignoring how good Glimmer of Light is even in the traditional Holy Paladin healing style. I don’t even have Glimmer of Light showing up on my raid frames right now and only have 2 stacks of the trait, but it is still between 7-10% of my healing on most fights.

No other trait competes, even if you play like the trait doesn’t exist. The passive benefit is just too strong.

Blizzard could knock 20% off Glimmer’s healing, and it would probably properly balance the Glimmer build against other healers (and traditional Paladin healing) in addition to allowing other trait choices to actually be viable with the traditional build.


(Drezwazluz) #17

Again, what? The healers are incredibly well balanced right now. Why do you people keep talking about resto like it isn’t incredibly strong.


(Taeldoriàn) #18

I wouldn’t say resto shamans are as strong as disc priests or Hpals, it certainly doesn’t seem to be that way heading into 8.2 but it’s too early to tell. I didn’t say resto shamans were weak either, I just said a little tightening up would help. I’m not sure people understand just how strong Hpals are with Devotion aura, it’s a big problem (imo) that it doesn’t show on logs/meters and this is the reason.

Either way, the point of the thread is glimmer and not class balance so I don’t wanna derail things too much. I don’t want glimmer to be touched right now (outside of maybe direct nerfs) because the build is enjoyable and the previous build was very boring/slow comparatively, I just dislike that they’re okay with this trait being super strong but deleted the Enh shaman build that relied on a strong trait, it’s just a double standard.


#19

It’s nice to see a sort of “high skill cap” type class mechanics being retained in this game, however even so imo Glimmer is just too strong in its current iteration and needs some slight numbers nerfs or something. If you are looking at the high skill percentiles on logs for mythic (key emphasis on the high percentile logs to anyone reading), you can see that paladins that know how to actually use Glimmer are performing insanely well right now, basically a chunk ahead of everyone. I’d argue (and disagree with your point) and would say that they did move up drastically, in terms of numbers. (again, when you’re looking at the good players and not mediocre ones).

There are specs that do not have any sort of high skill cap mechanic to be able to stand out on. (such as resto shammy). Or Azerite traits that are anywhere near as universal to be used on every fight like glimmer can be. (Spouting spirits, while good, is almost useless on some fights; for example). You can see in Mythic Crucible thus far that resto shammy inclusion beyond the DPS hybrid resto shammy is almost non-existent, because the impactful shammy healing traits are for the most part useless for that raid.

There are other things of course such as Glimmer encouraging a pretty mongoloid/silly playstyle that doesn’t make much of any sense.

The amount of throughput holy pally can put out now is unparalleled, while also at the same time possessing one of the best utility spells in the game with devo aura. I don’t think that combination is overly healthy for healer raiding balance, and I think a very slight numbers nerf to glimmer would go a long ways in terms of maintaining healer balance. It just offers way too much throughput potential for how much raid utility holy paladin also possesses.


(Drezwazluz) #20

I am quite confused.

So they’re just as widespread in use at a high end because they look cool, or.

Triple Glimmer is the only thing keeping hpal not only competitive, but also somewhat interesting to play. The people calling for it to be nerfed are quite silly.


(Metrohaha) #21

Very well described. I am impressed at how knowledgeable you are around so much of the game’s minutia within class systems.

I am happy that the class team recognizes how fun traits like this can be.
I hope you will be more open to similar style traits going forward, and feel the essence system captures a lot of what is awesome about that concept well.

I was disappointed when one of the Blood DK traits was removed because it felt like a similar style to this, allowing us to leech a massive amount after Vamp Blood ended.

A similar situation happened with Blaster Master for fire mages.

I agree that the situation where its inherently imbalanced is healthy and glad to hear you guys do too!

Hope to see more fun and interested ideas like this in the future!


#22

In regards to your last statement… I like to see higher skillcap stuff like glimmer that are interesting/unique (and I really hope that glimmer is kept competitive and good), however imo its just a bit too good right now to the point where it needs some slight toning down. Holy Pallys have without a doubt the highest sustained throughput capability right now of all healers in raiding, along with arguably strongest utility with Devo and BoP/sac (along with having top tier healer damage).

A spec having too much good isn’t healthy for healer balance in raiding. Holy pally is functioning and shaping up a lot like pre-nerf Disc spec was during uldir. (top tier throughput, top tier utility, top tier damage).