lol you twisted all my words around to make your stupid point valid, didn’t you.
You are an idoit.
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I didn’t twist anything.
I also didn’t insult you, but here we are.
When did I say It’s not viable? lol? Ok bye.
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If you paid any attention to the thread, it’s been about viability - buuuuut i guess that would require reading.
I made a post with changes to Frost if you wanna check it out Class Tuning! - #5 by Ameliie-sisters-of-elune
See I would not have questioned your logic at all had you just elaborated this in your original response to this:
You are entirely correct, but I think that it is worth mentioning the full picture to who you were responding to (particularly this part: “. . . or the fights don’t suit frosts play style excessive movement and require extra effort.”)
While it may very well be the people playing Frost, I think it is more about the raid and the fight styles and mechanics (combined with potentially poor spec interaction for Frost—I’ll admit I don’t play Frost so I would not know if this is the case) and/or the sims not accounting for something that is happening in the raid based on its generic fight attributes—this might be something you can elaborate on because truthfully I don’t know the answer to this and it hasn’t crossed my mind until now:
let’s say that Frost is simming on a 3 Target Cleave Fight at 6K DPS (random number), does the sim take into account something like how long the cleave targets live? Like say you have three strong Fire Mages in the same group and they combust and do AoE rotation to the same three targets . . . then realistically I wouldn’t think that the sim would be as accurate because the likelihood of the Frost mage being able to output the amount of dps to the cleaved targets that the sim is relaying doesn’t seem likely since the Fire Mages would be doing a significant amount of damage to these targets. Again, I don’t know the answer to that, and if someone could elaborate that would be nice!
If you don’t look at Mythic logs (while I know this isn’t optimal since I think a lot of people are usually concerned about damage and spec performance with Mythic in mind), and instead look at Heroic where there is more data, I think one can come to the conclusion that Frost not meeting its Simmed dps is more of an internal problem with the spec and interaction with the raid rather than player agency.
Of course, that is not to say that player agency doesn’t contribute to the mismatch, but I don’t think that it carries much weight in the situation right now. I think the sims are not accurately accounting for something that is happening in fights or with the spec—over inflating its damage. Bottom line is that almost no Frost mage is performing to what the sims are suggesting.
Both logs and sims are imperfect, but provide a more complete picture for a player when used in conjunction with one another.
Also, the reason I used a pug group as an example earlier (that you responded to) was more based off an assumption based on who it was you were responding to, which really wasn’t fair of me to do.
Frost is beyond under-tuned for single target damage.
Even our AoE damage is falling behind. Our class is currently centered around AoE damage, and even with the Glacial Fragments legendary, we’ll still get out damaged in AoE scenarios by a Fire Mage & the majority of other classes.
It’s really sad.
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This whole thread reminds of the first few weeks of Legion. Frost was significantly behind. A GM came and told players to get gud and that every Frost player was just playing it wrong. 2-3 weeks later they admitted that Frost was actually terrible, the data showed it and buffed the aura by 6% (which led to an 8% increase) which made it viable but still well behind…
You can argue that Frost is fine all you like, but realistically the numbers don’t lie. Even the best players in the world can’t make Frost work compared to an OK person playing one of the top 10 dps.
It’s also worth pointing out that despite Frost having arguably the easiest rotation of the 3 specs it is the furthest away from the sim numbers, while Fire (arguably the most difficult) is the closest. At any ilvl and at any percentile. All that tells me is that Frost sims are doing something wonky.
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I do, i put a large amount of weight on them. But im not looking at whats on the front page of the stats page. I break it down by ilvl, then i break it down by fight. Then i check how frost’s damage scales with ilvl. This applies to normal and heroic, the split between fire and the other two increase with the contents difficulty - could take a few pot shots as to why but i think we’re somewhat past that.
It makes a much less morbid picture than everyone is painting relative to fire.
I think it carries quite a bit. The single target sims arn’t factoring in movement, but they also arn’t factoring AOE, usually the two balance out somewhat but that besides the point. Its largely encounter specific.
Yes.
I don’t mind, its helpful for discussion context. All its saying is that all the successful pugs i’ve been in, its been player experience + performance that matter over class+spec.
Yeah, Frost is bad. I’m 210 ilvl and on a training dummy I only pull 3.5k after 5 mins or so (rank 4 Slice Ice, no Hero or buffs outside of AI). Consistently mid-pack at best on most encounters (especially ST ones) despite being among the best geared and frequently highest parsing. It’s demoralizing.
Swap to Fire and my DPS evens out to a bit higher than Frost on the dummy despite crit being my highest stat, not having a fire legendary, still getting comfortable with the rotation, not having the PvP trinket, and other factors.
And that’s standing still. Fire is more mobile than Frost with the exception of the Combust window.
Frost sims well in AoE but our AoE is conditional and not easy to optimize - targets have to all be stacked and stay in Blizzard. In realistic scenarios mobs are often jumping/leaping, tanks are kiting (especially PUG tanks that don’t bother trying to keep mobs in your Blizzard), M+ affixes make our AoE more or less viable (e.g., Sanguine is pretty bad for us), there are often priority targets in which AoE is less ideal, and so on. Nathria is also mostly ST fights.
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His sims are wrong. Hes one of the only people you will see on these forums trying to claim frost is 100 dps off of fire. Simply isn’t true.
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and get kicked from sire as well
Are you sure fire has garbage burst ? Are you suuure?
are you sure you can read? Are you suuuure you read what he said correctly? lol
That wont change anything and never has in the past.
The only way to get changes is to unsub. Changing what spec you play still makes them the same amount of money at the end of the month and motivates them to change things not at all.
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I agree, in fact is counter productive because changing your spec re enforces their believe that you actually like that spec and they will continue spending resources into a spec that you actually dislike. The best thing you can do is to unsub.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wYgALdxTDKtF3rM9#fight=25&type=damage-done
But I thought frost was garbage?
It is. They literally just gave Frost the biggest buff of any class (flat 9%). They wouldn’t do that to a spec that wasn’t struggling hard. You can show some anecdotal logs or instances of a Frost Mage doing well, doesn’t change that fact.
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If Frost was has good as you say, they would not have provided a 9% buff as at 1/12/2021…
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I said frost was viable, you’re insinuating I said it was competitive. Big difference.