You don’t have any evidence that’s the case, like I said I could just as well speculate all the bad frost mages gave up raiding because of their performance and the only ones left are good frost mages.
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They know. There are 1k Frost parse and 35k Fire parse in Mythic.
So who’s one of the 1k here? You sir are admirable, a true hardcore frost fan.
On paper, yes. If you don’t like simcraft because it doesnt reflect reality but are okay with the logic that buffing frost 20% would result in everything staying the same with no changes to what people are play is silly.
Let’s say you are doing a drag race vs a professional.
You have a car that’s 5% slower than theirs, how much faster do you think the professional will be than you?
Frost is viable. Frost mages are in world 200 progression guilds. That’s literally the definition of viable, even by your standards since people are taking frost mages mythic raiding.
What’s more likely?
- All the best mages stuck with frost because its 5% behind and harder
- All the best mages went with fire because its 5% ahead and easier
You’re currently suggesting 2.
15% is a deal breaker, heck even a 5% is a deal breaker for the top guilds.
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We’re not talking top guilds. We’re talking about frost as a spec, not a world first cheese machine.
Only mention top guilds because they set the standard for what specs people choose and what the community determines to be viable.
You’re suggesting that’s it’s either or, I suspect it’s a little of both tbh. And simcraft is obviously inferior to warcraft logs. If simcraft standardises everything then it’s going to be far less accurate then real life logs that offer a spread of data including many variables.
When I say buff frost mages, I expect blizzard to look at the situation and variables, not just do a straight buff, afterall if they can’t do that why are they in the business of making a game with different specs and variables in the first place?
I checked pve ranking and there is only one frost mage in the top 200, if that’s going to be your argument: that one frost mage got carried by their guild and did mythic so frost mages are completely viable then I pity you.
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And there is only one frost mage in the top 200, doesn’t that tell you something? There is only one frost mage in the top 300 3’s pvp team.
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I’m just using a simple example to make a point that what we see in WCL is not a great metric for assuming any given class/spec is non-viable or trash tier, and that is where tools like simcraft become useful. If the players were equal frost may be within the 1-2% of the median it may be 5%, but we wont know because everyone else is playing fire. One thing that is relatively safe to assume is that frost is not as far behind as WCL suggests it is as a spec.
You realize that there’s frost mages progressing within world 200 progression guilds right? Do you really think world 200 guilds are pissing about carrying people who can’t carry their own weight? I can tell you that when I was raiding in an NA 200 guild we sure as hell wouldn’t of, and these guys are progressing harder than we were.
Top 200 dps? Who gives a crap, those are parse cheeses. Look at progression in Netharia, 6/10M, world 200 guilds.
That frost mage is Venruki and he’s the 2019 blizzcon champion. What it says it’s viable, just takes more work than fire.
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I don’t believe there would be that many, only 1 or 2 perhaps maybe and how many compared to fire mages. How many exactly are there since you seem to enjoy pushing this point across? One or two doesn’t suggest a spec is viable. I would suspect that even if these guilds had frost mages, they would only bring them to farm if they were serious about progression. I mean during the world first race all the frost mages got shelved.
Well fortunately belief doesn’t dictate fact.
There’s 3 guilds running frost at 6/10M
There’s 6 guilds running frost at 5/10M
There’s 36 guilds running frost at 3/10M
But I guess they are all dedicated to carrying frost mages while progressing 
That’s the only way you can suggest they arn’t viable.
Never mind that these people are taking progression more seriously than you
We’re talking viability, not cutting edge. WF raiders take something 0.5% better than something else. They don’t give any consideration to what’s enjoyable.
Never, I’ll figure it out and make Frost work.
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Where did you get this info from and how can you be sure they are taking their frost mages to progression fights? And seriously that’s a paltry number of guilds taking frost mages, seriously it’s discouraging. I’ve looked at wowranksio and the top 200 mages are fire mages on mythic kills. I should imagine if I carried on down the list it would get worse.
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Warcraft logs -> rankings -> Frost mage -> specific bosses -> how many unique guilds are running them.
Its a small number of guilds. You have to remember that this is what im talking about when i say the top players will take w/e is the tippy top meta. With mages theres only 1 spec that can do that. Every other spec may be viable but they wont see progression as much.
Fire is better than frost on average. That’s not in debate. The argument but here is that frost should be buffed a bunch because its lower than fire and I wanna play frost. That argument doesnt make sense when frost is viable. Can’t say its not, mythic progression guilds are progressing with them.
Listen I’ve looked at the top three frost mages from your data, the first one (tonicwater) has no logs so I can’t see if they are on progression fights, the second one (capstone) isn’t in their guilds progression fights. The third one (lulluz) is actually fire in their latest progression fights. The fourth one (cdnmute) does over 1.5k lower dps than the fire mage in their guild while parsing at 100% and their fire mage parsing at 37%, the fire mage is only 2ilvl over the frost mage.
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Huh?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/malganis/capstone#spec=Frost
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/kr/%EC%95%84%EC%A6%88%EC%83%A4%EB%9D%BC/tonicwater#spec=Frost
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/blackmoore/lulluz# (this one only progressed as fire on 1 boss)
Do i need to keep going?
There is no point in linking the player pages for boss kills unless you go check out the guild progression logs. Since you argued these people are being taken on progression fights.
Washed up scrubs: mythic progression on council of blood, capstone is not there. Neither are they on the logs for the week prior progression on lady darkveins.
Tonic water’s guild has no logs to view like I said. Lulluz went fire on their guild’s latest progression boss. Cdnmute did terrible comparable dps to the fire mage in their guild’s progression and kill logs.
Edit: the fifth one on the list isn’t in their guild’s latest progression fights either. Dpssbot has gone fire. Derravia isn’t in their guilds progression logs.
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Thank you for pointing out the flaw with the logs. I should have stuck to my guns and not let people gaslight me into thinking parses magically fix the bias of all the better players speccing fire.
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Frost is definitely viable on mythic barely. It does 15% less dps than fire and has garbage burst…What’s the point other than roleplaying?
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This is where stubbornness to accept what’s literally right in front of you kills any hope of a continued conversation.
-> People can step away for personal reasons
-> DPS doesnt matter if a boss is dead, they’re still ahead of >95% of guilds in progression and took him for progression.
-> Lulluz went frost the next week, did equal DPS at a lower ilvl. at 5/10M was prog as frost.
-> Cdnmute died in most of the prog fights at one point or another. Again, doesnt matter if the boss is dead. They’re >95% ahead of every other guild out there.
I dont get the refusal to believe that the spec is viable:
- Frost is not viable, it must be buffed!
-> But people are progressing at a world 200-300 level with them… - They must’ve been carried.
-> World 300 progression guilds don’t carry people when progressing. - They’re DPS was worse than others.
-> So what, boss is dead = viable.