General/Casual Paladin Feedback

In Development Midnight: Curse of Ula'tek Public Test Realm
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Just the casual post every 6 months in hopes of more changes for Paladins. :slight_smile:

Class Tree

  • Issue #1: Too many talents, and a lack of Game/Developer Guidance

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    Feedback: As more of a casual player, something that’s felt bad going into Midnight is this feeling of having more talent choices within our Class Trees, but not enough points to get the “Flavor Class Spells.”

    I’m spending most my talents on ‘mandatory talents’ such as Vengeful Wrath and Seal of Might, than fun flavorful talents such as Turn Evil, Cleanse, etc…

    Spells and abilities that should make me feel like a [Paladin Class] are skipped over for basic redundant +Stat upgrades.

    I don’t really enjoy going to WoWhead, or w/e, to copy paste some talent tree and hope for the best. I’d rather see 28 “Gold Frame Talents” that are ‘mandatory’ with 10 “Silver Frame Talents” that I can choose to spend my last 6 points on.

    • Gold Frame Talents being things like;
      • Divine Steed, Cleanse, Auras, LoH, Blinding Light, Repent, Rebuke, Etc…
    • Silver Frame Talents being more flavorful choice nodes like;
      • Turn Evil, Divine Reach, Fear no Evil, etc…

  • Issue #2: Lack of “Rule of Cool”

    Feedback

    Feedback: While this isn’t a [Paladin] exclusive issue, and the class is still very popular… Paladins really don’t have anything unique in WoW at the moment.

    It feels really bad in terms of the mmoRPG experience for Paladins to not have a more unique Class Perk such as;

    • Visible Auras

    • Unique Librams or Weapons, etc…

    • Prot: 2hander + Shield (Warglaives on DH, Fury w/ 2handers)

    • Holy: 2hander + off-hand (Titan Grip)

    • Ret: Xmog Cloak into a Shield (Single Minded Fury Xmog Rules)

      Divine Steed was a cool upgrade for Humans and Blood Elves but as a Tauren Paladin… that’s more of a Race thing than a Class Perk. :slight_smile:

  • Issue #3: Mobility Package of Paladins feels very scattered, resulting in an underwhelming Quantity > Quality feeling.

    Feedback

    Feedback: This is not a ploy to get Paladin mobility buffed, but to simply give feedback that the “Mobility Package” is very underwhelming and does not present itself in a fun and engaging Class Fantasy.

    • Divine Steed

    • Divine Spurs

    • Cavalier

    • Steed of Liberty

    • Obduracy

    • Lead the Charge

    • Blessed Calling

    • Blessing of Freedom

    • Unbound Freedom

    • Judgement of Justice [Ret]

    • Seek Deliverance [Holy]

    • Illumine / Will of the Dawn [HotS]

    • Bonds of Fellowship / Unrelenting Charge [Templar]

      As a player, the Paladin mobility package is not a fun and engaging experience that sells the [gameplay fantasy] of any paladin archetypes.

      • I don’t feel like a Crusader with an emphasize on Steed.

      • I don’t feel like a Lawbringer with an emphasize on Long Arm of the Law, Seal of Justice, etc…

      • I don’t feel like an Oath Keeper (w/e) with an emphasize on Blessings, such as BoF, Unbound, Blessed Calling, etc…

        Again, it’s that Quantity > Quality feeling that doesn’t really get me excited to log into my Paladin and play. To have an unique experience.

  • Issue #4: Judgement and Hammer of Wrath has lost their unique identity as [Identifiable Spells]

    Feedback

    Feedback: The Video Game Experience of casting Judgement and Hammer of Wrath does not feel super fun and exciting.

    • I do not feel like I am casting Judgement for Judgement’s Benefits, to condemn an enemy, unleash a Seal, etc…

    • I do not feel like I am casting Hammer of Wrath for Hammer of Wrath’s Benefits.

      What it feels like more so than anything, is that I am casting [Holy Bolt] (Judgment) and [Wrathful Bolt] (Hammer of Wrath.)

      Mechanically, I understand why this change went through and in that sense, it’s 'fine.’ But again, when I cast Judgement I do not get this feeling of a unique gameplay moment.

      Personally, I would have much rather had Hammer of Wrath (Necorlord’s Hammer) as a 20 second Class Cooldown, than Divine Toll.

  • Issue #5: Divine Toll is not fun and engaging, or informative for a [Class Ability].

    Feedback

    Feedback: An overarching issue with [Paladins] is that our Cooldowns don’t feel like fun, engaging, or even ‘iconic’ gameplay moments.

    While Wings has historically been that that Paladin Cooldown, all the other cooldowns, including Divine Toll, has fallen extremely short.

    • As a Ret Paladin: Casting more Judgements, when Judgement feels like a generic ability more so than ever, is not super fun and exciting.

    • As a Holy Paladin: Casting Holy Shock on X random targets feels very out of control of the player. (Appose to Rising Sunlight for Example)

    • As a Prot Paladin: Casting Multiple Avengers Shields is fun, but feels like it could be made into a better, core Prot talent.

      Combine this with:

    • Ret: Templar’s overburden Burst Windows

    • Holy: Lack of Glimmer / Holy Shock Gameplay along with awkward Lightsmith interactions

    • Prot: Terrible Templar timings and interactions

    • Class: Lack of Clarity on the ability having the same name but performing different functions as a **[Class Ability]
      **
      And it’s just a recipe for disaster across board.

      Obviously I would love for a new, more iconic, fun and engaging [Paladin] ability to be put into the [Class Tree] that the whole [Class] can enjoy – that isn’t forced awkwardly into Hero Talents, but understand that could be too challenging for a .X patch.

  • Issue #6: Auras lack Visuals and Class Fantasy

    Feedback

    Feedback: In connection to above’s Rule of Cool and Class Talent Tree issues, Auras for Paladins feel really bad in comparison to Druid Forms, Shadowform, Lightning Shield, Rogue Poisons, Rune Weapons, etc….

    Auras feel like they should be a core aspect to that Paladin Fantasy, but there’s just nothing there.

    • Universal +3% Damage Reduction
    • Faith’s Armor being baked into Devo Aura.
    • Lead the Charge being baked into Crusader Aura.
    • Stoicism being baked into Concentration Aura.
    • Lightforged Blessing being baked into Sanctity Aura?
    • A just reward being baked into Salvation Aura?
    • Aura Mastery getting a revamp for Holy…
    • etc…

  • Issue #7: Blessings lack Updated Visuals and Class Fantasy

    Feedback

    Feedback: It feels like Blessings could get a secondary pass, more modernized, and better defined for the Class.

    • Blessing of Freedom + Unbound

      • Great Experience, but needs to ‘make sense’ in the overall Paladin Mobility Package

    • Blessing of Sacrifice + Sacrifice of the Just/Recompense + Worthy Sacrifice/Righteous Protection

      • Sacrifice doesn’t feel rewarding - Recompense should be baked into the baseline spell

      • Sacrifice of the Just should be combined with Improved BoProtection

      • Righteous Protection is great

      • Worthy Sacrifice is fine for new players, kindof whatever

    • Blessing of Protection + Improved Blessing of Protection

      • BoP is starting to feel dated in the overall Paladin toolkit with WoW’s utility going more towards group play.

      • BoSW being a Prot Talent, then a Holy/Ret PvP Talent feels like a PvP Tax

      • Improved Blessing of Protection and Sacrifice of the Just should be combined.

    • Blessing of Dawn, Blessing of Dusk, and Blessing of An’she should be renamed or redesigned into something that better fits into the identify of “Blessings.”

      • The design intention of these talents feels misleading.

  • Issue #8: Passive “Seal Talents” make the game feel like pruning, not Modernization.

    Feedback

    Feedback: Again, not an exclusive [Paladin] issue, and this isn’t so much of an issue with nostalgia, but just giving feedback that active abilities do contribute to the feeling of class fantasy.

    It ‘feels good’ to apply Shaman Shields, to get that “free enchant” of a DK Runeforge, or to see an enemy struggle with Poisons.

    Improving Shadowform, Stances, Runeforges, Seals, Forms, etc… is much more interesting gameplay wise, than adding in 8 more ‘dead’ class talents….

Ret Paladin

  • Issue #1: Overall layout of the Spec Tree

    Feedback

    Feedback: While a minor issue currently for Ret, but it just feels like the overall layout of the Talent Tree could be better with things of importance, like AW and WoA, being shifted more towards the center of the Tree.

  • Issues #2: Lack of Cohesion in the Retribution Fantasy

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    Feedback: The [Retribution Tree] obviously feels like its lacking any sort of Retribution gameplay, but more importantly, feels like 2 incomplete fantasy ideas.

    The Holy Hammerdin vs the Radiant Flame fantasies feel quite underwhelming after so many talents have been removed.

    In addition, spell identities (Tooltips) can feel quite confusing in what types of damage they do.

    • Templar’s Verdict = Holystrike Damage

    • Final Verdict = Holy Damage

    • Judgement = Holy Damage

    • Blade of Justice = Holy Damage

    • Crusader Strike = Holystrike Damage

    • Crusading Strikes = Physical Damage

    • Templar Strikes = Radiant Damage

    • Wake of Ashes = Radiant Damage

      This could just be clean up from the talent pruning, but just to note there is nothing in-game to inform the Player on how our Mastery or +Holy damage modifiers effect Holystrike and Radiant, etc…

  • Issues #3: Lack of Fun and Engaging Cooldowns

    Feedback

    Feedback: Tying into Divine Toll mentioned above, the Cooldowns for Paladins feels very underwhelming and again, a quantity > quality type thing.

    • Templar:

      • Avenging Wrath / Crusade

      • Execution Sentence

      • Judge, Jury and Executioner

      • Wake of Ashes

      • Hammer of Light

      • Divine Toll

      • Divine Resonance

      • Divine Exaction

      • Divine Hammers

      • Divine Purpose

      • Empyrean Hammers

    • Healrd of the Sun

      • Avenging Wrath / Crusade

      • Execution Sentence

      • Judge, Jury and Executioner

      • Wake of Ashes

      • Divine Purpose

      • Sun’s Avatar

      • Dawnlights

      • Divine Toll

      • Divine Resonance

        With so many things happening within this short burst window, it’s hard for any one thing to stand out and feel satisfying on it’s own.

        Continuing the discussion from Midnight: Curse of Ula’tek PTR Development Notes:

        In addition to these moments of “Rushed Gameplay,” reducing the effect of AW and adding in this 4-set bonus feels like it’s going to further emphasize this problem.

        • Nothing on it’s own “feels good to press.”
        • Too much stuff is happening in such a short window.

        While it is a lot to ask in a .X patch, but it would be nice to see [Paladin Cooldowns] redesigned to be honed into something more unique, fun and engaging.

  • Issue #4: Lack of Spell Identity and Flavorful Customization with our Builders

    Feedback

    • Continuing the discussion from Midnight: Curse of Ula’tek PTR Development Notes:

    • Feedback: Ret’s abilities and talent choices all feel like they lead to the same ability.

      • Improved Judgement (Hammer of Wrath)

      • Templar Strike/Slash

      • Improved Blade of Justice

      • Art of War Procs

      • 2 charges, deals X Holy damage, Generates 1 Holy Power.

        In reducing the strength of our cooldowns and shifting more of that power back to our Builders, we find ourselves yet again in the situation where ***“all our abilities feel the same.”

        Again, referencing above. I’m not pressing Judgement because it has it’s own unique effects – I’m just rolling my face on the keyboard imaging everything is Holy Bolt.

        In addition, if you don’t select the ‘right combo’ chances are you feel holy starved. Ultimately, because Retribution is Paladin’s only DPS spec, it would be nice if we had the ability to experience different gameplay styles and themes, with more distinction between our abilities and what the do.

        • (CS) → Crusading Strikes vs Fires of Justice

        • (BoJ) → Exorcism vs Templar Strike/Slash

        • (Judgement) → Fist of Heavens vs By Fire be Purged

        • (Templar’s Verdict) → Final Verdict vs Celestial Verdict

        • (Divine Storm) → Tempest of the Lightbringer vs Solarion’s Fire

          It would be nice to have a bit more of that Game/Developer Guidance when it comes to picking important or synergic talents.

  • Issue #5: Hero Talent Trees

    Feedback

    Feedback: The hero Talent trees aren’t all that exciting for Paladins right now just because of the accumulation of issues mentioned from above. :slight_smile:

    Templar does not feel like a super exciting ARPG Hammerdin, and the burst window feels extremely bloated with abilities, procs, and clashing identities, which leads to a sense of *rushed through gameplay.
    *
    As a Player, I want my cooldowns to feel like these powerful engaging moments of gameplay, and less on the chaotic procs of;

    • Wake of Ashes

    • Truth’s Wake

    • Seething Flames

    • Divine Toll

    • Divine Hammers

    • Divine Resonance

    • Divine Exaction

    • Empyrean Hammers

    • Art of War, Light’s Within, Divine Purpose Procs

    • Etc….

      Continuing the discussion from Midnight: Curse of Ula’tek PTR Development Notes:

      Hammer of Light feels less impactful, everything “blurs into one” and nothing stands on its own feet as an interesting button press.

      • What makes Judgement different from Hammer of Wrath?
      • What makes Hammer of Light different from Templar’s Verdict?
      • What makes Templar Slash different from Imp. Blade of Justice?

      Herald of the Sun does not feel like it captivates on any rewarding fantasy or gameplay and feels like the tree needs a complete redesign from the ground up.

      As mentioned with Retribution’s current spell design, the class fantasy feels split between several overlapping themes — Holy, Holystrike, Radiant, etc.

      Because of that, Herald of the Sun struggles to establish a strong, recognizable identity the way Frostfire does for Mages, Wither does for Warlocks or Dark Ranger does for Hunters. Those hero trees feel cohesive with a strong fantasy, while HotS feels like it’s layering onto our fragmented thematic foundation.

Holy Paladin

  • Issue #1: Lack of Game/Developer Guidance on “How to build a Holy Paladin”

    Feedback

    Feedback: Again, just an overarching point of feedback to give, is that the Talent Trees do not do a great job of guiding the player through creating a coherent talent build.

    Holy Paladins have synergies throughout the tree with Flash of Light, Holy Light and Beacons that feel very scattered, and things like Avenging Wrath, etc.. not being centralized in the tree makes them feel less important.

    Additionally, Avenging Crusader introduces a “battle-melee healer” playstyle, but it can feel somewhat disconnected from the rest of Holy’s design. You take the talent and suddenly Crusader Strike becomes part of the rotation again, but there isn’t a strong enough surrounding framework of talents or synergies that reinforce that melee identity.

    Changing the position of Key Talents, the Frames of talents, making them Bigger, etc.. really go a long way in making the gaming experience more approachable.

  • Issue #2: Restro Shaman feels like it Out Classes Holy Paladin in almost every way.

    Feedback

    Feedback: As respectful as I can be, playing a Restro Shaman right now feels like a better, more rewarding and coherent version of the “Caster Holy Paladin.”

    Going head to head in abilities, Shaman just feels like a more satisfying healer.

    • Riptide > Holy Shock

    • Chain Heal > Holy Light

    • Healing Stream Totem > Beacon of Faith

    • Surging Totem > Bulkwarks

    • NS > Divine Toll

    • Earth Shields > Beacon of Light

    • And then all the utility on top of it.

    • etc…

      By no means am I posting this too be rude and this is not meant as a “nerf Shaman” post. Resto Shaman feels well-designed.

      ***The issue is that the Holy Paladin currently feels incomplete by comparison.

      For example, as a more casual healer player, one of the biggest issues is how bad it feels to cast Judgment this frequently in our healing rotation, as it often feels like an obligation that interrupts healing flow.

      It feels like many of Holy Paladin’s tools are dedicated to supporting a caster-healer identity that still feels unfinished, while the battle-healer side of the spec no longer receives enough support to stand on its own either.

  • Issue #3: Lack of Utility in the [Holy Tree]

    Feedback

    Feedback: Obviously something more unique to Holy Paladin is that many of our strongest defensive utility tools are located in the Class Tree because they are shared with Ret and Prot.

    Holy Paladin gets access to abilities like BoSac and BoP through the Class Tree, while other healing specs often receive their signature defensives directly through their spec trees.

    • For example:

      • Restoration Druids receive Ironbark in their spec tree.

      • Mistweavers receive Life Cocoon in their spec tree.

        Tying back to above of the Class Trees feeling bloated, maybe Blessings feeling a bit dated in design and of course homogenization. Holy Paladins really feel like they lack 1-2 Utility Buttons that a lot of other Healers now bring.

  • Issue #4: Beacon of Virtue feels Outdated

    Feedback

    Feedback: Again, unfortunately due to the increasing homogenization of the game, Beacons feel a bit outdated in terms of their design in comparison to other healers.

    • Restro Shamans getting Earth Shield – and that being in the Class Tree.

    • Restro Druids getting Symbiotic Relationship – and that being in the Class Tree.

    • Preservation Evoker getting Life Bind

    • Etc..

      Holy Paladin’s Beacon system, while historically iconic, feels like it hasn’t meaningfully evolved alongside these newer design directions.

      Continuing the discussion from Midnight: Curse of Ula’tek PTR Development Notes:

      This ties back into the broader issue of Class Tree versus Spec Tree structure, where talents such as;

      • Beacon of Light

      • Beacon of Faith

      • Beacon of Virtue

      • Selfless Healer

      • Afterimage

      • Healing Hands

      • Blessing of Dawn

      • Lightbearer

      • etc…

        Could be better designed into our Beacon Spell.

        Again, the goal isn’t to remove what makes other healers unique, but to highlight that Beacon gameplay may benefit from consolidation and modernization so it feels as impactful and cohesive as the tools given to other healing specs.

  • Issue #5: Hero Trees

    Feedback

    Feedback: Unfortunately, referencing back to Restro Shamans, it again feels like they have very comparable Healing Concepts, but Restro Shamans are just executed in a more meaningful way.

    For example, comparing Herald of the Sun and Farseer;

    • Elemental Reverb provides an additional charge of Riptide, directly expanding rotational flexibility and increasing decision-making depth.

    • Luminosity increases Holy Shock critical chance by 5%, which feels more like a passive throughput increase rather than a change in how the spec actually plays.

    While both effects are numerically valuable, gaining an additional Riptide charge feels more impactful to that core gameplay experience.

    Referencing back to Retribution because HotS is the shared Hero Talent, another example would be to look at Chronowarden from Evokers.

    The way that Chronowarden incorporates the Brozen Aspect into their Fire Spells, or how Frostfire incorporates Frost into Fire Spells, is there any version of that – that better incorporates the radiant aspect into Holy/Ret Paladins?

Hopefully a lot of changes are in store for the gameplay design of Holy and Herald of the Sun still this patch.