Fire Mage thread not available for adding my new posts currently, so will post feedback about latest Mage changes in alpha here, both general and Fire specific.
General:
They removed Temporal Warp in latest alpha build and maybe it is time to remove Time Anomaly also - it is very unreliable, double reliant on RNG (when it procs and what it procs) and is pretty much a mandatory capstone in general tree, since it is an output talent that competes with defensive / utility talents in 3rd part of tree. It could be replaced with some other defensive / utility talent (like often mentioned choice node between Cauterize and Cold Snap with Cold Snap adapted to reset CD of spec’s barrier instead of just Ice Barrier). If Time Anomaly for some reason needs to stay, it should become more reliable, for example trigger both spec’s major CD and a Fire Blast charge / FoF / Clearcasting instead of just either.
They removed Mirror Image from Look Again for Spellslinger - not good change, since it became much less useful than its competitor that increases movement speed during Alter Time and should be compensated somehow, especially since Displacement is not even taken much in PVE. That gets us to a second point - Displacement should become more accessible for PVE builds, for example be moved to second part of general tree.
Fire:
I like that tree now has much bigger variety of talents and most talents are 1 point investments now. Something similar could be done for Frost and especially Arcane.
If somebody does not know how new Fire tree looks - https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/mage/fire/sunfury
New Living Bomb does quite undertuned damage, including for Frostfire Frost spec, who cannot even boost its damage. As a result, Living Bomb’s damage should be buffed for Fire and Frostfire’s Excess Fire should likely trigger some other spell now.
Scorch still does too low baseline damage that requires crazy modifiers both in execute phase and PVP to become competitive. Please buff its baseline damage and if needed reduce its PVP modifier and bonus from Down in Flames to compensate. It could be also nice if Scorch triggered and benefited from Pyrotechnics stacks for better synergies.
Ashen Feather is a good idea, but its placement so far from other Phoenix Flames talents and with no connections from it to capstones makes it a very arguable pick. Please consider moving it into a more accessible and connected spot, for example in 2nd part of Fire tree below choice node between Alexstrasza’s Fury and From the Ashes and with a connection to Fevered Incantation.
Hyperthermia is still not competitive enough, especially for Sunfury Fire Mages. Its current proc based design is badly compatible with both high Combustion uptime and Sunfury, so it could be changed - for example, it could become an active ability with X seconds CD, so that players could choose when to trigger it and avoid its proc countersynergies with SKB or Combustion.
Meteor is more accessible now, but its upgrade node is still not competitive enough, especially for AoE situations. To address that, Deep Impact could be buffed and become a choice node with some other talent that would boost Meteor for AoE situations.
Some of Fire’s PVP talents and modifiers could be looked at too - Greater Pyroblast still has too long cast time for its effect, Glass Cannon has too large health penalty for its effect after the last nerf, Blazing Barrier likely does not need its 25% nerf in PVP anymore, Unleashed Inferno’s 67% PVP nerf is too large and could be reduced and so on.
Yeah definitely a lot to pore over lol. Spontaneous Combustion was something I’ve previously thought would be a good choice node somewhere, and I can’t say I hate it (just blowing your load entirely before Combust and never worrying about holding), but it definitely has some counter-synergies as-is: From the Ashes becomes a totally dead talent, Fiery Rush becomes all but useless, and the -2 seconds on Phoenix could all but kill it as a feasible option depending on how quickly it can get out spells.
Pyromaniac is going to be great IMO, but with that being a lock-in Hyperthermia seems even more redundant / unfun RNG. And let’s stop trying to make Deep Impact happen.
Ultimately though: just glad to not have SKB be the only play style for the 8th consecutive tier.
Since there were pretty much no changes to general tree yet outside of Temporal Warp removal, there is no need for new thread for general tree and this thread is still actual.
I also saw suggestions for potential upgrade talents for Ice Nova that could make it deal increased damage, but no longer root (useful for situations where additional roots can be harmful) / affect only 1 target, but deal greatly increased damage (useful for single-target situations). These ideas are interesting and could even be combined - Ice Nova could have an optional upgrade talent that would be a choice node and allow to pick between these effects. As a result, people who would want any of these effects could pick the upgrade talent and people who want regular Ice Nova could skip the upgrade, so that all of these options would be available to people that prefer them.
I hear that, but then it just becomes an awkward/forced GCD for Fire/Arcane. I’d way rather they fix the weird bottom left side of the tree that forces roots (useless in raid) to get to Ice Cold (amazing in raid). Ice Nova already kinda chunks if you have nothing else to press but I’d rather it remain a button of last resort.
I agree that left capstone area of general tree could use changes - more choices to provide options for talents that would be useful in raid, maybe some anti-ranged options, niche Frigid Winds moved to an optional spot in tree and replaced by more generally useful talent as a 2 point gatekeeper and so on. There is also a simple solution with either making Ice Cold accessible from Time Manipulation or even a choice node with Ice Block itself.
If they really want the old deathborne gameplay to work, they should REDO fractured frost totally.
Atm its just : During icy veins FB can hit up to 2 targets.
For cleave-fights and a new (viable) AOE playstyle it should be:
FB hits up to 5-8 targets.
So if we press IV and than FIRE a barrage of FBS/FFBS it would look awesome and then we could spec into something that just focus on orb, blizzard, icelances at some extent but mostly spamming empowered FBS/FFB. That would be awesome x) and nothing like: Go in melee range e.g. like the atm bad aoe gameplay.
Moving Supernova to general tree is good, but most other changes of general tree in last alpha build were bad. Talents that were undertuned / underused like Mirror Images upgrade node, Rigid Ice, Improved Frost Nova etc were not addressed, talents that were used for some reason were merged into choice node like Ice Nova and Ring of Frost and a new talent that was introduced is just a copy of Accumulative Shielding with different trigger condition. Compared to changes to general tree of other classes like DKs who got some general tree talents baseline and cool new talents like permanent 10% magic damage reduction and 35% magic effects duration reduction it feels like a massive letdown. Some of the latest changes should be reverted and some additional should be implemented (more details below).
If somebody has currently access to alpha and has such wish - please also post this feedback in Mage thread there for better visibility.
Feedback about latest changes:
Ring of Frost and Ice Nova don’t make much sense as a choice node - they have entirely different use cases and niches and Mages should not have to pick between them just like they did not need to in all earlier expansions, where RoF was used for AoE CC or CC combos and Ice Nova was used for shatter combos. Making such choice node is a mistake that also nerfs Frost’s utility in Mythic+ for no particular reason and should be reverted.
Suggestion: Split Ice Nova and Ring of Frost back. If you want to keep latest symmetry of the tree, Ring of Frost could replace one of Frost Nova talents below or become a choice node with Mass Polymorph instead - they have more similar effect and use cases than with Ice Nova. Mass Polymorph in general could also use a boost for competitiveness - reduce its cooldown to 45 seconds to match Ring of Frost’s CD and make it ranged too. This will allow people to pick between AoE CC that does not heal targets, slows when expires and does not have target limitations and AoE CC that does not have target cap and is much easier to land because of covering whole affected area, becoming a decent choice node.
Supernova is not good as a choice node with Dragon’s Breath either. Firstly, it is a nerf to Arcane’s utility for no particular reason and their use cases can be different too - Supernova is more of a disruption ability and Dragon’s Breath is a mostly (cover) CC ability. Secondly, Supernova does not deserve 45s baseline cooldown for its effect, it was added only to bring its CD in line with CD of Dragon’s Breath and it is not fitting. Thirdly, such choice node automatically can force Arcane Spellslingers out of Dragon’s Breath to make use of one of their hero talents, which is not good.
Suggestion: Split Dragon’s Breath with Supernova, potentially reduce Supernova back to 25-30 seconds CD and make Supernova a choice node with for example Quick Witted instead - this will provide a reasonable choice node between an additional disruption ability and more frequent Counterspell interrupts, which is similar to how Shadow Priests can pick between reduced CD of Silence and additional CC in form of Psychic Horror. Сhoice node between Ice Nova and Supernova could work too.
Like posted by many other posters, removal of Temporal Warp is good, but Time Anomaly is problematic too - it is extremely unreliable because of double RNG and it is the only throughput capstone talent, which would make it mandatory to play even for people who don’t like it. Consider just removing it too and replacing with other defensive / utility node, maybe even with often suggested choice node between Cauterize and Cold Snap, which would make non-Fire Mages more competitive in Mythic+ and Arcane Mages more in line defensively with 2 other Mage specs.
Additional suggestions:
Many nodes in Mage general tree are still undertuned / underused, are not picked much and could be looked at: Mirror Images upgrade nodes provide too little value and also don’t trigger much in PVE, where most enemies attack Images and not the Mage directly. They could use a boost.
Suggestion: Make them trigger when images dissipate for any reason including being killed, buff healing of Reabsorption (as it currently provides less healing over time than Displacement instantly) and replace Reduplication with an effect that increases number of images created by X. This would both make the upgrade node more viable and provide a reasonable choice between getting healing from them or longer distraction in PVE / damage reduction and passive slows in PVP. Mirror Images themselves are also undertuned for a 2 min CD defensive and could use some boosts too, like having more health (for PVE) and dropping enemy’s target when cast like in earlier expansions (for PVP). Rigid Ice - provides little to no value in PVE, since damage and shatters usually quickly break the root anyway and even less value in PVP, where it is nerfed to 20%, so is not picked much.
Suggestion: Make it affect all freeze roots and also / instead extend freeze roots grace period (where they are not broken by damage) - this will give it a niche, especially for Frost Mages in group content, who could take it to more reliably shatter their roots without allies breaking them early. Improved Frost Nova - does not provide much value, since freeze roots can be broken long before their 6 seconds duration expires in PVE, let alone 8 seconds and in PVP roots are capped to 6 seconds duration anyway. It should be just merged into base Frost Nova (like it was pre-Dragonflight) and replaced with something else.
Suggestion: Make it baseline and replace with Frigid Winds as a 1 point talent (which better matches its value and moves Frigid Winds to a more optional position that is fitting for a niche talent).
If Frigid Winds were moved, their freed node could be occupied with some other 2 point node that would be more generally useful (as for example Frigid Winds have no value against bosses / very low value against ranged enemies). For example, it could be a talent that would reduce CD of Mage’s Barriers like redesigned Accumulative Shielding, providing a choice in 8th row between survivability increase (Accumulative Shielding), mobility frequency increase (Flow of Time) and mobility potency increase (Temporal Velocity), allowing Mages to pick the preferred option(s).
Both Freezing Cold and Ice Ward have the same niche of adding more roots, which makes only 1 of them usually picked and left capstone area too conditional. Consider just making them into a choice node and adding some more generally useful or anti-ranged talent to 9th row there to provide better choice options there. For example, it could be a talent that would allow Counterspell to be used while casting without disrupting the cast and providing a benefit on successful interrupt - it would help with landing interrupts for cast heavy specs like Arcane and provide a decent choice to reach capstone talent between anti-melee choice node of Freezing Cold and Ice Ward and an anti-ranged Counterspell talent (which could be a choice node too, for example with some form of Improved Counterspell from earlier expansions).
Ice Cold still requres 4 very niche prerequisite talent points invested to take, making it unnecessary expensive. These talent points often don’t even have any value in content played, for example in raids, where bosses are immune both to snares that are boosted by Frigid Winds and roots that are boosted by both Ice Ward and Freezing Cold, making their effect wasted. To address that, consider making Ice Cold accessible from other nodes like Time Manipulation or just making it a choice node with Ice Block itself and replacing with other capstone node.
Some general tree talents have PVP modifiers inherited from earlier expansions that might no longer be needed. Please take a look at Diverted Energy, Tempest Barrier, Dragon’s Breath PVP duration reduction (that might no longer be needed, since it is 45s baseline CD now) etc and decide whether their PVP modifiers are still needed in The War Within.
Agreed, ring/nova choice is also a PvP nerf, where nova is exceptionally useful across all specs.
Overall some very fairly odd changes to the tree that no one really asked for, while not touching on any of the issues that people were asking for, e.g. direct connection to Ice Cold without pathing through useless talents, Mirror Images and its upgrade talents still feeling like a forced legacy visual/fantasy for what’s really just a 20% DR, Time Anomaly not being at all fun to play around, Mass Poly lacking a real niche in its current form/targeting, etc.
No changes to general tree in latest build except they for some reason nerfed Mirror Images to 15% damage reduction in alpha. That is very odd, since Mirror Images were already an underwhelming defensive for a 2 min CD. If they wanted to nerf them in raid where images are not killed much - they should have reduced their duration instead as that would not affect other game modes.
Choice node between Ice Nova and Ring of Frost is still very bad and does not make much sense, especially since both were accessible simultaneously not only in Dragonflight, but also in earlier expansions. They should be separated again and Ring of Frost should either replace one of the underused Frost Nova talents below their choice node or become a choice node with Mass Polymorph, since that choice node makes much more sense and would still nerf Mage’s utility if that is their intention.
If somebody has access to alpha - please post these ideas in the official Mage feedback thread there as well for better visibility.
Choice node between static Int boost and Time Anomaly is decent, but it is still a choice between a boring tuning knob (which can be applied via just aura buff if needed) and a very unreliable tool. Consider just removing both and putting a defensive / utility node there.
If Time Anomaly for some reason needs to stay - buff to Time Anomaly proc for Frost from FoF to Brain Freeze is decent, but 2 other procs should be valuable enough as well - Icy Veins proc should summon a water elemental like the casted version and extend duration if IV is already active and Time Warp proc should extend its duration if it is already active as well. Same can be said about Fire and Arcane - Fire Blast charge and Clearcasting stack have much lower value than several seconds of Combustion / Arcane Surge / Time Warp and could be boosted in number or potency.
Mirror Images were reverted to 20% damage reduction - decent change, they are already not that powerful for a 2 minute CD defensive.
Choice nodes between Ice Nova vs Ring of Frost and Dragon’s Breath vs Supernova are not good. IN vs RoF does not make much sense since both abilities have different purposes and were available simultaneously in all earlier expansions they were present in and forces Frost Mages to pick between a rotational ability and their main utility spell, providing a bad choice similar to earlier choice between Supernova and output boosting talents in Arcane tree. DB vs Supernova was a bad pick as well - it required a nerf to Supernova’s CD that was already a weak effect ability and it automatically forces Arcane Spellslingers and Sunfuries that want to take Gravity Lapse out of Dragon’s Breath, resulting in reduced number of choices. These choice nodes should be adjusted.
Suggestions:
Split Ice Nova and Ring of Frost and put RoF either instead of one of Frost Nova talents below the choice node or as a choice node with Mass Polymorph, which would make much more sense.
Split Dragon’s Breath with Supernova, reduce Supernova back to 25-30s CD to match the effect and CD of other similar abilities and make Supernova a choice node with either Quick Witted (analogue to how Shadow Priests pick between shorter CD for Silence and additional CC in form of Psychic Horror), Blast Wave (analogue to how Shamans pick between knockback of Thunderstorm and knockup of Thundershock) or Ice Nova (they were a choice node in some earlier expansions).
I’m sure a lot of people will disagree with this but I would like to see mage active ability talents toned down. The class feels bloated.
Last I checked I think arcane has 25 active abilities between the mage tree and arcane tree. That’s more than some specs entire kit.
I think some things could be streamlined to help it not feel so bloated.
For example, Radiant Spark and Touch of the Magi could be combined. Have ToTM apply the debuff to accumulate damage, but also add a debuff to increase damage taken for 4 spells. I think changes like that which could tone down buttons but not outright delete abilities would help the class overall.
I feel like we’ve reached a point in the game where Blizzard can’t really add any more abilities because we’re right on the edge of specs being bloated. Almost all hero talents are passives. We’re getting very few new button in TWW and I suspect it’s because specs are so close to feeling bloated (some already are (brewmaster))
I haven’t been keeping up with TWW. I read up on things once in a while but I don’t make much effort to stay up to date on all the changes, I play way too many classes to keep track of it all.
Still though I’m glad they’re somewhat addressing button bloat. I know people hate losing abilities but as things get added expansion after expansion, you inevitably reach a place where it’s too much.
only fire+arcane.