Frost DK talents boring/bad

I recently did a ret paladin class trial to mess around and see how good they are and it’s really, really made me see just how BAD Frost DK (And to an extent Blood/Unholy) talents are.

Especially the last few talents… In Legion you had THREE abilities to chose from, Hungering Rune Weapon, which was a suped of Empower Rune Weapon, Obliteration, which made your Obliterates cost one rune among other things, and Breath of Sindragosa.

Now we have Icecap, something noone uses and is borderline useless because without the new Obliteration talent PoF especially in pvp doesn’t really do much for you.

Breath of Sindragosa, something I wish would die already. In PvP it’s useless, not only is it nerfed by 66% in pvp you might get one or two ticks of it off before the person you’re trying to hit with it is out of range.

And Obliteration, the only talent that is useful, (literally the only talent you can pick for pvp, anything else and you’re throwing) It’s the only thing with some modicom of interesting mechanics while also being useful.

Everything else is so weak and boring compared to the Ret talent tree where you have SO MANY choices for defensives, offensives, damage reductions, healing increases you name it. They have all these interesting talents that are really useful and either change an ability, add a totally new one that is actually worth it, or add a very powerful effect (like healing hands, zeal, etc)

The first row of talents for Frost DK are honestly a meme, Coldheart nerfed by 66% in pvp is useless, Ice Talons is mediocre, meaning Inexorable assault is the only real choice. And all it does is slighty buff the mediocre damage of Obliterate.

The level 35 talents are a huge meme. Frostscythe might be useful in pvp but does almost no damage, and is also literally useless in pvp. “Frozen Pulse” is probably the worst talent for Frost, dealing minimum stupid low damage with your auto attacks only half the time, and avalanch, while being the only good talent, literally does nothing but slightly increase the damage of your Howling Blast with Rime procced.

None of the talents really feel good, your “”“defensives”"" talents are awful. Permafrost: Literally useless, 40% auto attack damage as a shield lol what? Like you’d ever be able to keep that up.

Death Pact, while being somewhat strong, can literally be more hurtful than helpful in arenas because dampening while literally cause the healing aborption shield to be MORE than the amount it healed you for.

And wraith walk is hardly a defensive, used to be baseline in Legion, it’s a simple root breaker.

Probably the most interesting bracket is the level 45 one. Gathering Storm is actually pretty interesting and can provide some good damage in both pvp and pve, while Hypothermic Prescene is dissapointing but still provides a cool CD effect of reducing Runic Power cost that is up to you what you do with it (Maybe combine it with BoS, or more Frost Strike, or use it as a defense for more Death Strikes/Death Coil) and Glacial Advance, an actual decent ability that although does medicore damage, is aoe and also applies the Razoeice effect.

Other than that, everything else is mediocre. While most talents (Frozen Pulse, Frostscythe, Permafrost) are literally useless in pvp, the other “only good options” like Avalanch are simply minor damage increases for certain abilities.

Meanwhile rets get so much more intersting and powerful stuff like Healing Hands increaseing the healing of WoD by up to 100% based off of health missing, Final Reckoning which does damage and increases all holy damage dealt, an effect that decreases cast time on flash of light, effects that stack judgement damage etc etc

It’s sadly been this way for a while too, after stuff like the old Obliteration and Hungering Rune Weapon from Legion were gutted it seems like the talent tree has A LOT left to be desired. And in SL we literally got one new talent/ability talent, Hypothermic Prescense, which is mediocre at best for using one extra Death Coil in arena and that’s about it

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If you wanna know something funny about Hypothermic Presence, its still garbage for BoS in PvE. Our one new talent literally made to be used for an endpoint talent doesn’t work with it. Not to mention Gathering Storm does so much single target damage let alone cleave that it’s not even worth the extra ticks of BoS overall.

Feels bad opening talent window and seeing all the useless/boring talents

Icy talons, horn of winter, frozen pulse, frostscythe, hypothermic presence, glacial advance and icecap need replacement or redesign asap

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RP feels bad to spend as Frost.

BoS is the only thing that adds RP any sort of value in terms of damage dealing department and it’s a very controversial ability for a reason.

Frost Strike needs more than just slapping your enemy with Frost Damage. Compared to Unholy’s Death Coil, it’s a joke.

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I really think the root of the problem lies in the BS (and let me emphasize BS) nerfs/ghost nerfs to like half of our kit for no apparent reason in PvP. At least most of these talents would feel a lot better w/o the ghost pvp nerfs. Also if blizz could fix deathstrike that would be great k thnx bai

Also would be great if the 2hand obliteration dream was a competitive option in PvE. If you think it is, you are lying to yourself, dw breath is superior in every way

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I mean some of them need it. Could you imagine, with Frost as it is now, not having the FWF pvp modifier?

And people cry about ret’s damage…this would be 10x worse lol

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Im convinced you dont main Death Knight and just lurk the DK forums to s^$% on what anyone says and start a 100+ post argument like you did on my last post

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Oh shut. up.

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Nethy is kinda right in this case. I am not condoning his confrontational shenanigans however. :slight_smile:

FWF 70% nerf damage is there for a reason. It’s a bit drastic but it’s there for a legit reason.

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Imagine 16k+ FWF aoe hits ontop of the insane cleave FDK already does.

It’d be much worse than a ret. You’d 1 shot their entire team since they’d all be in a stun.

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That being said OTHER nerfs like DS are hella too much. Not to change it to where you get insta healed with one death strike but it would be nice to have more survivability. PvE its pretty great unless you’re doing a high environmental damage fight like Mythic Sludgefist.

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Agreed. While I don’t think the entire DS nerf should be reverted, it was excessive and should be reviewed. 50% was over the top.

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Ok, but does it need to be nerfed to the degree that it is? In terms of single target damage at least it doesn’t do much at all. Only reason it’s useful is the leggo

All of the nerfs add up

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Hard to say. We already cleave like absolute monsters. FWF is not where I think the spec could use help in damage.

True but it’s kinda ridiculous that the ability is so nerfed that it requires a leggo to be used at all.
The stun should be a pvp tradeoff for the dmg loss as a pvp talent, and the leggo should do something else imo.

3 Likes

That’s not a terrible idea.

Personally, I’m more aggravated at Frost Strike than any other damaging ability in our tool kit.

It feels horrible to press. A PvP talent to give it some type of multiplier would be cool. Idk.

Seeing all these other classes getting fun and unique pvp talents make me hope they have something interesting outside of a passive aura for us. (Heart stop being redesigned as Shroud of Winter) - yawn.

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Oh FS is hot diggity garbage, no doubt.

And as another guy keeps pointing out right now (not that most of us didnt know already) most of our talents are literal memes.

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Talents are boring.

Inexorable Assault - just some frost damage triggered by the use of Obliterate or Frostscythe.
Icy Talons - just a complete and utter pita compared to what it was. Put up ff and get attack speed.
Cold Heart - Just a legendary given in the form of a talent that you use at 20 stacks.
Runic Attenuation - Low on crit and dont want to fool with another button press take this.
Murderous Efficiency - Have enough crits for regular KM procs, take this.
Horn of Winter - Blood Tap
Avalanche - more forget me damage like Inexorable assault just triggered by Rime and is aoe based on who is hit with Howling Blast
Frozen Pulse - auto attacks do frost damage when low resources
Frostscythe - can also be used with KM, but has a high crit modifier and has to compete with Obliterate which has KM rank 2 lowering its value but not by as much as it was.
Permafrost - Autos give a shield
Wraithwalk - Root Break and you cant do anything but move while its active or you lose the movement speed portion of it, not to mention it used to get stuck on every little thing and you couldnt jump so it was useless.
Death Pact - 50% heal which 30% of your health has to be healed.
Gathering Storm - Remorseless Winter upkeep
Hypothermic Presence - reduces the RP cost of abilities and no one cares.
Glacial Advance - applies Razorice which would take about as long as mobs last to apply has a CD and costs RP and does some aoe damage.
Icecap - Reduces PoF CD but not enough secondaries for it to be worth anything.
Obliteration - KM procs for a damage window because KM procs are really important and you dont want to waste Obliterates in a PoF window without KM procs because instead of 800 damage it does 1200 damage.
BoS - Another upkeep ability that does descent damage and basically removes abilities from the rotation.

Anyone see the feedback loop Elemental had in beta that could crash your game and others because it was basically infinite Lava Bursts on any target that had Flame Shock on it? Where is that stuff for dk? You cant do it anymore but at least it was something interesting that someone noticed. This thing can feed thing thing that feeds that thing that feeds the first and on and on and game crash.

Icecap wouldnt be as bad if Obliterate wasnt designed as feast or famine. You can kind of make it work with Frostscythe and an aoe build, but you kind of need to be DW to make use of how DW crits work with Frost Strike. Any crit lowers its cd, so any crit from Frostscythe, and any crit from Frost Strike. Not saying it would be any good, but it would function as a build.

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Garbo devs, garbo game.

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Yes, as a main-dk player in eu (also have a lot of dks but this only really affects me on main since I don’t do pvp on others), it’s really annoying that we have so many blanket pvp nerfs.

Let me see some numbers: in pve I managed to crit for over 30k with frostwyrm’s fury, my pve gear is fairly good but you can have a lot better if you’re a high m+er or a mythic raider, so if you add in the legendary you could maybe hit some people for 75% + of their hp, others for 37,5% + and stun them all, it’d be pretty OP and only on a 1,5 min cd, this is the ability I can most get behind a sort of pvp nerf, currently its damage is cut to 1\3 of normal damage, I suppose they could let it do half normal damage instead, would crit for 15k, aoe, it’s a lot but certainly you won’t kill people with just that, and would still deal 50% more than the damage it’s currently dealing in pvp.

Cold heart: I’ve seen some 15k crits in pve? It’s ST and can only deal serious damage every 40 sec, and also keep in mind that you NEED to slow people in pvp, which means you will do smaller bursts because you will have to hit people with few stacks of cold heart, don’t know if you agree but I don’t see any harm leaving this un-nerfed in pvp, which would mean 3x the damage it’s currently dealing!

Breath of sindragosa: does some good burst but you need to keep it up, it’s obviously very easy to stop a dk from using breath, with stuns, slows, movement speed enhancing abilities, and various cc, I don’t really think even in this case leaving the pve damage would cause OPness issues, which would mean 2x the pvp damage it’s dealing.

Death strike: the healing was pretty good until the 50% pvp nerf, now it honestly sucks, I can no longer defend bases for significant time against high burst classes, during bfa before the nerf it was possible with good DS timing to survive fire mages, destro locks etc. for a long time, until people came with reinforcements, example at an AB base, now I can see it’s no longer possible, it seems too much, they could’ve left it un-nerfed, or I don’t know, 20-25%, no more than that, paladins are healing a lot more atm.

Was also thinking about something worrying that other people brought up on other threads: they said blizzard never reverts these nerfs once they introduced them, this is true, they’re not known for that, but it’s not impossible they do something to fix them, it’s happened before, I remember we were in a really bad state in s1 bfa, even survivability was pretty weak, then we got some interesting buffs in s2 I think, like a 40 or 60% DS healing buff, something like that, and indeed it was possible to do very well in that sense in s2, so if they think we suck they could buff us, it’s just very unlikely, knowing blizzard!

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