For the love of Elune please leave this thread alone

Yeah people forget that the temple of loyalty is where the forsworn go to recover from the terrible experience of a failed cleansing of their burdens, also if we’re to throw in a character who actually questions why he didn’t get to go to bastion Alexandros is the one. And that’s solely because memories of the past aren’t necessary for the Kyrians to do their duties, and without it then the Kyrians who met a truly gruesome end would still hold that grudge like Uther, thus condemning many souls to the maw.

It isn’t a perfect system and even the Archon has been convinced of such a thing by the player, but I doubt they’ll do anything drastic to change the path. Perhaps allow the aspirants to retain their pleasant memories, while discarding the bad.

Discarding both the memories of their Enemies and the Prejudices they have been taught while keeping the Happy Unbiased Memories would be nice!

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That’s probably the route it will go, I mean it’s not bad to keep the happy memories but I assumed they got rid of them because it might make one wish to go back. Thus abandoning the sacred purpose of the Kyrian, but that is probably a rare occasion.

Those that do wish to go back were probably sent to Bastion to have the Bad Memories removed so that they could return to life undamaged!

See though that’s where Bastion, once again, falls apart.

In Revendreth (which I love), you don’t have to become a venthyr. You’re free to go to any other realm in the shadowlands. Goodness after siding with them it feels like Revendreth is everything Bastion SHOULD be.

When you ascend in Revendreth, you are not encouraged to forget your past. You’re allowed to bury it, but it is always going to be a part of you, somewhere. Some people, however, like the Accuser, take it almost as a source of pride. “Look”, she says “This is where I came from. And I have changed.”

In Revendreth you are encouraged to grow - and you’re encouraged to help others grow. That’s what Renethal and the new court want to return to. It’s beautiful. All of the people we talk to, the souls we save - it’s done gently. Firmly, if need be, but gently. None of the Venthyr are looking to enforce a duty - they just genuinely want to help people learn and overcome their troubles.

Meanwhile, Bastion is just…boot-camp. You don’t get to decide whether or not you head to another realm, if this one doesn’t fit you. Of course it fits you. You aren’t accusing the Archon of lying are you? Maybe you’re just not ready to forget everything yet. But you will be. Look! Look at the pretty wings! Isn’t it wonderful? Look at how happy we are. You could be happy too if you just forgot. Bastion is built entirely on the concept of blind faith - which is…well, I think it’s shown rather accurately to cause more harm than good. I just don’t see why people defend bastion in the slightest when Revendreth shows everything that its missing.

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That’s because those who are picked for bastion are those who lived a life of absolute service usually, ones that would be willing to sacrifice themselves and what they desire to perform a noble function.

Revendreth is about repentance, being broken down from pride, greed, envy all the sins of your life in the most painful of fashions, and it is your last chance till the maw so even then there is a element of no choice for those who fail.

Maldraxxus is a place of eternal war, a warriors dream of marshal strength makes right. Or the most manipulative schemers paradise of eternal intrigue due to the eternal war games that are used to constantly train the eternal soldiers.

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Also “torture” is not beautiful, the intent is noble but the methods of Revendreth are inherently cold with what a soul must endure even if they where evil or sinful in life.

Also not an attack merely expressing my opinion on it lol.

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Well…it’s not necessarily torture. At least, the side we’re working for doesn’t torture their souls.

The court of Harvesters - Our court of harvesters, is all about Atonement. Making up for the deeds they’ve done in life. For some of the things I’ve heard…I don’t know. I think a lot of these souls get off light.

Certainly under Denathrius there’s torture. Souls are torn to shreds for their anima and stuck back together like a Maldraxxus beast. Many of them just lose hope.

“It will hurt, but no more than you deserve” is what one of the harvesters(I believe) tells Kael’thas. So there’s a bit of it, but it definitely does not look like they get off on suffering.

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They DO torture souls. That’s the way of Revendreth. The Accuser even claimed that one of the reasons she left Denathrius’s side was that he was growing too lenient, claiming that his “teeth had lost their terror” when he dolls out her punishment. She’s looking to get her position back so she can go back to properly torturing people.

Besides, I wouldn’t trust that Renathal is gonna be any more noble than Denathrius, only that he happens to be working against the Sire, and thus happens to be on our side. For our time in Revendreth, he’s often called out by the other Venthyr when he justifies his rebellion on the grounds of nobility and returning Revendreth to their true purpose. AS such, it’s heavily implied he doesn’t even believe in the cause he’s preaching, he just wants the power, and he wants Denthrius to not be above him.

All in all, our side is not that nice of people either. They just don’t happen to be working with the Jailor, so they get to hang with us.

I would beg to disagree. Renethal is hardly portrayed as power hungry - he’s desperate, certainly, but not opportunistic.

Once again, I would argue that it’s less torture and the infliction of pain, and more about ensuring that souls repent. The torture, as you call it, is more often than not merely the pain they inflicted upon others. Denathrius’s followers do certainly take a sadistic glee in inflicting this, but Renethal’s consider it more a consequence of dealing with the specific souls. The pain they inflict is done out of a necessity for understanding and absolution, not out of a want to inflict it. Even if a soul has committed heinous acts, that doesn’t guarantee that they’ll need to relive them, if they’re repentant.

I think you’re taking the Accuser’s words out of context as well. She was absolutely trying to get a rise out of Denathrius, who has been withdrawn for…how long now? Since he caused the drought? SHE, out of all people, had reason to be desperately defiant in that moment. Of course she’s going to insult his abilities - she’s about to face absolute hell either way. Might as well rile him up.

And now…Renethal. You’re going off of his reputation as told by…who? Denathrius? The Tithe-lord? They’re the only ones who openly target Renethal’s motives, and that’s because it’s projection on both their parts. The stonecarver is just upset that her kids are fighting, and being that technically Renethal started the conflict by rebelling, she sees him as the source. The Countess just follows the drama, she doesn’t care which side she’s on as long as she’s having fun. The houndmaster, or the huntsmaster, her motive was pure sadism.

So, rallying all that up, we have two vouching for Renethal with the Accuser and the Curator, two neutral with the stonecarver and the countess, and two siding with Denathrius for their own personal gain.

Now, if we’re talking about Renethal as a person, I think his actions have proved more than anything that he will be a better, more just ruler than Denathrius. He believes in his cause entirely - his fault (and this is what the countess calls him out for) is that he can’t fight this battle entirely on his own . That doesn’t stop him from trying however. General Draven has to ask us to keep an eye on him after we confront Denathrius - Renethal’s wounded, but he’s still determined to fight on the front lines until he keels over.

Renethal’s new court, if it follows his vision, will be extremely different. He has a much wider perspective of the shadowlands and its purpose than I think Denathrius ever did.

The conversation at the start of the Venthyr covenant campaign seems to point in a different direction. In the very opening, Renathal goes on a long speech about returning Revendreth to its honorable purpose and all that, to which the Accuser quips that he made the exact same speech years ago, before the drought, and before Denthrius’s intentions were known (The Court of the Harvesters Quest). In other words, he tried to start his rebellion well before Denathrius showed any sign of turning against the Shadowlands. Thus, the initial spark hardly seems to come from desperation.
Case and point, he preaches these values, but he hardly seems to believe them. He would hardly be a more virtuous leader than Dentharius. Their only real difference seems to be who they side with.

It’s literally both. Using the former to try and cause the latter. Basically, it’s the ends justifying the means, supposedly. Doesn’t really matter whether the person inflicting it is happy to inflict it or is indifferent. Torture to the victim is still torture. And yes, I do call it torture, based on the definition, which is

“the act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or psychological suffering on someone by another as a punishment or in order to fulfill some desire of the torturer or force some action from the victim”

Hardly. Again, it seems more what he preaches, not practices, but instead of really taking any glee, he simply seems to not care.

Except when he SPOILERS-

-tortures Denathrius at the end Castle Nathria, where he openly mocks him by using a phrase that Denathrius used against him (“remember this lesson”). So in other words, he takes his pleasure where he can, and is hardly an impartial judge. And even if he were only impartial to one person, that doesn’t really make him any better from a moral standpoint does it?

So, she tries to get him angry by accusing him of being soft, when he openly claims that he that he is “nothing if not compassionate.” So she’s trying to make him angry by telling him that he is what he claims to be…

Also, for the sake of the player who she is trying to convince in the same scene, she’s proclaiming that she would support a ruler that stuck to the ancient, less merciful ways.

The example I used above was from the Accuser, one of his supporters. She claims his speech of restoring Revendreth and all is a sham, because he made the same speech to spark his initial rebellion, before Denathrius has shown any signs of turning. As such, she, who claims to believe in Revendreth’s purpose, does not seem to follow him out of belief in him, but rather because it is the easiest way to unseat Denathrius.

His cause is taking down Denathrius… so ya. I guess he believes in that. As stated above, he’s not doing it out of altruism or any sense of “Revendreth’s Honorable Purpose.” If he did, he would have started his rebellion much more recently.

Hardly. Denathrius is looking to change the Shadowlands as a whole, which is why he sides with the Jailor, who’s goal is to do just that. Being one of it’s rulers, Denathrius has had to live that purpose for countless years, and now seeks to crush it in order to make something different.

Renathal has shown little to no interest in what goes on beyond Revendreth, aside from the threat of the Jailor. He only contacts the Eternal Ones once he realizes that he can’t beat Sire Denathrius himself, or the Jailor, and thus seeks their aid in order to do both, thus defeating the threats to his own realm.

Or maybe give them some time off to commune with their memories and then put them aside when it’s time to get back on the job.

Here’s the thing… Ascension is a VOLOUNTARY path. It’s not forced upon anyone who enters Bastion, nor is there any pace required. There are doubtless, other perhaps even more pleasant afterlives for souls to opt for.

It’s also a path of service, and that always means a level of self-sacrifice.

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Well that’s why souls who lived lives of service are usually picked for bastion, plus there are infinite other afterlives other then the four we see. It’s just these four serve integral roles within the function of the shadowlands and how it operates, while I’m certain there are places where souls are sent that are essentially paradise where their weary souls would know rest it is not what we will see this expansion lol.

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Well eventually the student grows tired of remaining the disciple, and Denathrius even though he is evil now might have always been is very capable of picking out the flaws of others. “For centuries you tortured arrogant souls, yet instead of learning from them you became one.”

Renethal seems to want to return to the status quo of Revendreth and the noble purpose it serves, ie breaking down the most sinful of souls to spare them an eternity within the maw. But the Venthyrs methods are anything but kind and gentle when it comes to atonement, to quote Denathrius again “Pain cleanses the soul.” Which is a mindset all of his creations would undoubtedly share when it comes to executing their charges, plus Renethal engages in this act when he traps Remornia/Denathrius is a prison of light so he’d eternally burn. “Hopefully you’ll be reminded of Revendreths noble purpose.”

Also the honorable purpose could very well be the full redemption of a soul, and not chucking them into the maw. But it seems Revendreth is one interpretation of hell, where you serve so many years in there to be tortured for your sins before being allowed into heaven.

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This is the most baby thread I’ve ever seen. Good lord.

I thought Bastion had the most interesting moral dilemma out of the covenant storylines, the others were pretty basic. It’s kinda funny how horrified people get experiencing it.