Flying basically non exsistant

Community General Discussion
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Well, I think that’s the big difference between how they designed the game then compared to now. You were given this huge open world with more content than needed so you could decide how and where you wanted to level. Matter of fact, you could completely skip questing if you wanted and level via dungeons all the way to 80. Then come back around for questing. Since I played on a PvP server at the time, that was actually the preferred method for getting ready for world PvP.

In Wrath (and I would argue all the way up to Mists for the most part), you got to choose the content you wanted to engage in. Now, everything is so locked down in comparison from questing to reputations to flight. It’s pretty much the difference in designing for short-term retention versus long-term retention in my opinion. If you’re so worried about keeping players locked down, you can easily end up pushing them away.

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I would agree with that. I literally capped in MoP just from Jade Forest and Valley of Four Winds. It was only when I dinged 90, opened the Tillers dailies, and needed to purchase flying so I could get up to the Skyrange and the virmen warrens that I realized I hadn’t opened the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.

When I ground rep in MoP, it was because I was enjoying the content. When I finished the zones, it was because I enjoyed the content. I never needed to have a carrot named “Pathfinder” dangled in front of me to make me play prior to WoD. I never felt like I was being pushed to beat the game. There was content, I could do the content I enjoyed, and ignore the content I didn’t care about. Just like every previous expansion.

What’s hurt the game isn’t flying, it’s the devs deciding that they know better than the players how they ought to enjoy the game.

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I couldn’t agree more. We’ve moved from “here’s the entire world of Warcraft, now go play,” to “here’s how you’re going to play, when you’re going to be able to play, and in what order you’re going to play in our world of Warcraft.”

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I didn’t join in Legion. I returned for for Legion. I sat out WoD since it was horrible. And it wasnt because of flying. When I came back and grinded through it the lack of flying wasnt fun because the content sucked. But you make a fair point. I haven’t played the new expansion so I dont know the pain associated with it. Maybe I’ll fine out. I came to finish legion and see if I want to continue.

But just FYI I am no noob to wow. I played from day 1. I also played EQ from day 1. Which probably ages me a bit and maybe I am out of touch too. Lol.

So what is the #1 complaint in BFA and flying or lack of? What’s different? Legion doesnt seem to be a problem without it. Wotlk wasnt. WoD it was for me but that’s because I only wanted it to end as fast as possible.

Sum it up for me.

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The flying achievement is way too much on the old expansions. They need to remove the gated flying on Legion and Draenor that requires 110 dungeons. I don’t mind exploration and questing, but I do mind having to do 110 dungeons I can’t find groups for because no one does them any longer. That’s annoying.

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The fact that people actually attribute the decline of the game to the “removal” of flying is actually hilarious. The reason subs took a nosedive when flying was “removed” was because it was “removed” during the unanimously agreed upon worst expansion in the history of the entire game. In fact, many people agreed their new way of earning flying in a new area was fantastic. It was only in this echo chamber full of crybabies and extreme casuals that the idea was hated.

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Therein lies the problem.

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yeah no, maybe this is just the limitation of trying to communicate with text but lets not assume extremes here. Don’t put words on me that I didn’t say.

But I can say that WoD was not the dumpster fire everyone delights in planting a flag on. I had an odd experience there. Life took me out of game and I had the odd chance to come back to the game exactly at the time pathfinder was unlocked. I dove right into the content, did the quests, and explored, and looked around with total glee and excitement. WoD quite frankly was freaking beautiful, high quality, and lots of parts of it were incredibly well designed. I played WoD and when my pathfinder unlocked something between 1 to 2 months I was flying. My experiencing of that game content was very very happy.

I very much believe that my positively experiencing of that WoD content world is a direct result of the fact that I was not ground locked for months and was it even years I think? I could hop on and explore other characters at will.

Now, not to make this a lengthy rundown on WoD but it did have it’s problems. Garrisons, while one of the most beautiful and well tightly designed things I’ve seen in a long time, were of course fundamentally flawed. It’s the player housing dilemma all over again, cardinal rule of MMO, don’t divide up the player base too much. And of course, people completed the content too quickly (WHILE THEY WERE ON THE GROUND) and by content I mean raids. That high quality game needed another tier. There’s more … the gold/loot pinata factors. I could go on, but I won’t. (like Imagine if garrisons had been developed as guild bases, now wow, that would have been something, but that’s one of a hundred conversations that’s already been had too many times)

But to reiterate yes, totally, absolutely - it is no mistake that the game took a nosedive when anti-flying groupthink took hold. Sometimes Bliz needs a more flexible methodology. Doubling down on things that may not pass the “cool test” is a rough way to go. Today though, It does seem like they are working on that, a bit of flexibility. Even so, nothing really beats flying.

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349

I’ve said often on these forums that, while the removal of flight might not be directly responsible for subscriber loss, it’s a symptom of a wider design philosophy. And I think that new design philosophy is absolutely the reason the game seems so much less enjoyable these days.

Or, as Kheradin put it up above:

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I noticed. Instead of staying subbed 7 -8 months out of the year, I’m now doing 3 - 4.

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True that. Not sure why anyone would argue that boring anti alt time wasting ground travel is a good thing for anyone or the game, but then again these forums constantly remind me that Blizz is right hate their customers.

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Wait… there is seriously a cap on how many times you can like a post? I have NEVER hit that cap, in over 10 years on these forums… Am i a negative nancy?

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It’s just a “feature” on these forums.

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WoW devs used to brag about the seamlessness of the game and how immersive that factor was. That idea died with crz. After that it became all about reducing server over head so they could cut costs, easily scale the world, and reduce bandwidth.

There’s no mention that the current travel modes greatly reduce server overhead and bandwidth and the need for hardware. Now it’s just a loading screen rather than a server calculating player locations over a wider range.

It’s also about development issues. They no longer want to do the work necessary to maintain the kind of game that once had 12 millions playing. You can’t spit down my neck and tell me it’s raining.

Even the mau metrics they created to hide the loss of millions of subscribers is damning them. It is easy to infer subscription numbers by the lack of activity in game now.

I wonder how it feels to create content that loses your company millions in annual revenue?

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I’m wracking my brain to find a place there are portals that you can fly to. All the portals I can think of take you to other continents, other worlds. Undercity to Orgrimar, Dalaran to Argus, Orgrimar to outland (as well as the Alliance side portals). Is there a portal that would take you to, say for instance, Desolace and Feralas? Ah, I remember one, between Ghostlands and Easter Plaguelands. But you fly (or walk) to it, hit the loading screen, and fly (or walk) just beyond it.

I’m not sure how that is destroying the immersion of a game that is based on magic. Harry Potter utilizes Apparition to go from place to place, as well as the floo network mode of travel. That certainly doesn’t destroy the immersion of that game. It’s part of the game. As is portals in world of warcraft one aspect of travel in this game.

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I’m not sure where you were going with this, but how a person got to the quest or place they fished or picked this herb or that ore would be irrelevant as to how many people did it. What I mean is, their data-mine wouldn’t tell them if I walked up to a fishing node or flew up to it. Just doing a quest wouldn’t tell them how I got to the quest area, walked or flew (with the exception of the places that require flying to get to such as the quest “A New Beginning” where
“Njormeld wants you to take the Reforged Armor to Thorim at the Temple of Storms” (quest objective) in Storm Peaks. Can’t get there without flying.) but really, how many quests in all of wow really demand flying? Yes, it makes it easier, no it doesn’t destroy immersion (as someone else explained). But, there isn’t really a way without watching each and every player how they get to the content. Yes, they can see what content is being done or not done as the case may be. But how they got there? It would be impossible to data mine that.

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Not entirely true. There was, and is, some content that you can not do without flying. Such as the entire quest line with Thorim and King Jokkum. You are constantly going back and forth between the Temple of Storms and Dun Niffelem. There just isn’t a way to get to the Temple of Storms without flying. I believe it is the highest peak in the zone that goes basically straight up.

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I actually like the Pathfinder way of “earning” flying. I just think it needs an overhaul. I like having to do everything from the ground the first time. Puts everything in perspective for me. But the endless grind of rep, then wait and wait and wait. That’s what I have a problem with. Legions actually introduced pathfinder 2. We all had Pathfinder finished, and waiting, and waiting, then suddenly flying was available, AFTER you finish pathfinder 2. Which was the last zone that you would be able to fly in the expansion (Broken Shore). After that came Argus and it was a no fly zone.

And their reasoning for it being a no fly zone was hinkey. Because it was all broken up? Really Devs? You mean you have to port from Krokuun, Mac’Aree, and the Antoran Wastes much the same as you have to port to Northrend, Outlands, from Kalimdor to Eastern Kingdoms and back? What changed? Why would having to port to the three zones make it impossible to fly there?

Someone said something about Ion changing the game;

I have said this in other threads and I totally believe it. The dev team must sit up nights, drinking beer and brainstorming ways to screw with the players. For instance (off topic but relevant). I multibox and group my two characters when I do. So, I suppose I notice this more than the average player. Some quest that require you to collect something, say 10 apples. You’d think each player has to collect their own 10 apples for all quest of this type. But, nope, I’ve collected five on one and five on the other and the quest completes. Killing a mob, you’d think that would be a shared objective. For the most part it is, but I’ve been on quest where both my characters have to kill the same number of mobs on their own to get quest completion credit. One quest, just today, I had to “rescue” three Tortollans from the Naga in Nazmir. I play on two screens and look on the main screen as I have the other character on follow. (it’s more complicated than just that but I don’t need to look at both screens.) Anyway, I rescued two of the three before realizing the second character hadn’t rescued any at all. Grouped, running right behind the first and didn’t get credit for rescuing the two Tortollans. Yeah, the dev team brainstorms how to screw with the players. And before anyone jumps down my throat, no it wasn’t that hard to go back and get the second character to rescue those two. It’s the lack of consistency that annoys me. Several quests earlier I did basically the same thing, but when I went to “rescue” (or whatever it was I had to do for that quest) the npc with my second character it was already marked as being done. I got credit for both characters doing the action when only one had to do it. Which is why I wasn’t paying attention to the second character needing to perform that action during that quest.

Sorry, kind of off topic, but it does go hand in hand with it. How the current dev team looks upon us lowly players. I don’t know if it’s contempt or they just like, well for lack of a better term at the moment, being bullies. Seriously, collect fel blood from 10 demons and the drop rate is horrid, you’d get the 10 vials after the 30th kill. They ALL have fel blood, why isn’t the drop rate 100%? That particular night the devs had three beers before coming up with the quest objective.

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WoW always gave flying right away - day 1 of the expansion!

You just had to be max level and have the gold for it in BC, Wrath, and MoP.
You just had to have the gold for it in Cata.

Being max level means that we didn’t use it to quest in order to level. That was only in Cata and the devs only did it that once. So no, we weren’t skipping things or “killing content.”

I really wish that some of the people in this thread would do some research or something because you’re just spouting nonsense regarding flying in WoW.

Enough people in Vanilla asked for flying that they made it a feature and put it into the first expansion, BC. Then it was so popular that they kept it in the game for each of the first four expansions. Until Ion Hazzikostas gained power and tried to remove it from the game in the fifth expansion; he hates flying and doesn’t want us to fly. He’s the problem - not flying.

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I was referring to the many ways the devs have frittered away dev costs, time and effort to create player controlled flight substitutes. Portals was just one of several other immersion destroying methods. See my prior post for a list.

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