This thread is about the state of Elemental Shaman in PvP, specifically with regards to Flame Shock being dispellable, having no dispel protection, and having a significant cooldown, while also being a fundamental prerequisite for the spec functioning correctly.
6 second CD… Healer dispel 8 second CD… Double dispelling (Discipline Priests), Cleansing Waters (Restoration Shamen), and Cleanse the Weak (Holy Paladin) all exist for multi-dispel on top of this baseline difficulty.
Flame Shock is the backbone of the spec. This needs to be looked at.
Some simple/possible solutions to address this issue:
- Remove Flame Shock CD.
- Make Flame Shock non-dispellable.
- Dispel Protection.
a) When Flame Shock is dispelled, its cooldown is refunded.
b) When flame shock is dispelled, Shaman receives a large buff (like haste
the one we had in WOTLK) .
c) When Flame Shock is dispelled, make next lava burst autocrit and apply
Flame Shock .
d) Other.
- Multiple charges, so we can at least get ahead of the dispels.
- At LEAST let the Flame Shock CD scale down with haste…
These last two (4 and 5) probably aren’t sufficient, but at least it would show some sign of caring about the spec’s current clunkiness.
It is abundantly clear that the spec is meant to be played with multiple (2-4) flame shocks active in this setting, and yet enemy healers can deny this very effectively and easily, with no counterplay or compensation available to the Elemental player.
Again, Flame Shock debuffs are the backbone of Elemental (in a PvP context), and yet we are frequently forced to attempt to play without it.
You have already nerfed Lava Surge proc rate dramatically (18% down to 10%; number of procs almost halved) since last expansion, creating frequent proc droughts.
You are now nerfing Lava Burst damage in the coming patch.
This has needed some sort of fix for far too long, and it’s past due time it gets addressed.
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If you couldn’t dispel flameshock I’d be Rank 1 right now in my first season as shaman, that would break the spec and give it way too much sustain and aoe damage in pvp.
I think best fix to flameshock should be giving 2 charges of flameshock with echo of elements in addition to the lavaburst 2 charges. The other option is making it when enemy dispels flameshock elemental gets a flat 10% haste buff for 10 seconds.
Neither of these break the spec like some of the options above, option one and two are just game breaking with current legendary and mael generation from procs.
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its true, in RBG’s you can clearly see fights where I’m getting dispelled like a trucker (30+ lost Flame Shocks) vs not.
I would like to see the CD get reset (I feel like FS having no CD would be a little too much), I would love to see the Primo Wave FS be un-dispelable (yeah its catering to necro covenant but lets be real anyone whos serious about rate PvP as ele is 100% necro)
I would also personally love to see us move a little away from a fire spec. I feel like I rarely, if ever, use CL or LB. the only 2 non fire spells i use are the other two shocks, its really sad. But that said i know why we dont. both have a base 1.9 second cast and hitting like perfectly cooked spaghetti against a shield makes it more benefitial to just wait for a free LavaBurst proc.
Ya I don’t think this is a thing.
Not saying that’s the best solution on the list, but it’s an option that definitely isn’t as gamebreaking as you’re suggesting.
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Flameshock damage is so critical right now even with no dispel protection it does a large amount of our damage profile and gives us 100% crit on our heaviest spell. If it didn’t allow dispells a good elemental would have 3-4 up at all times with primordial and it probably do at least 30-40% of our total damage while getting an insane amount of lava surge procs (even moreso with primal fire elemental out).
That would legitimately break the game as an ele in pvp. A guaranteed triple lavaburst on all 3 targets in 3s with no dispel counters.
No, it wouldn’t.
This is how the game is supposed to feel as ele. Have you seen games where flame shocks are not dispelled? Look at Wallirikz and Bakka running LSPal… People avoid dispelling flame shocks due to the UA, and his damage is still very reasonable.
The only difference between that and other comps is that ele does not have its own protection so it’s being carried by UA protection.
This is the whole point.
It’s not guaranteed at all. This is why LoS exists in arenas. God forbid people actually have to LoS a casters big burst cooldowns.
Again, not saying it’s the best solution on the list, but your dismissal of it as “Gamebreaking” is grossly misinformed.
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I played Elemental this season at a competitive level. I think I know what I’m talking about and line of sight does not prevent triple aoe lb at all with primordial giving a buff for 15 seconds. Flameshock all 3 no dispells primordial kill target, then skyfury earthshock 100-0 someone with triple lavaburst and insane aoe cleave.
Dispelling flameshock drops our damage in half and really is the only way to punish elementals at the moment. Sure its unfun to play against a competent healer, but if they couldn’t dispel we could aoe cleave people down easily.
Incorrect. No LoS = no Lava Burst. Echoes continue proccing, but if you LoS for the 8 seconds of Echoing buff, the burst is negated. Just have to play better.
My alt shaman is near your rating. Leave your ego out of this, it has no place in this discussion.
Personally I’d prefer to see one of the other solutions as well, but nondispellable flame shock would definitely not break the game. If it broke the game as you suggested, LSX would be dominating the ladder, meta, and tourneys right now and Wallirikz+Bakka would be dumping on everyone if the only ones running it. This is not the case.
Again, nondispellable Flame Shock is probably not the best option on that list… Personally, I’d prefer one of the options in the 3 section.
But, flame shocks being dispelled completely guts the spec and it’s a simple solution that every team has… If the enemy healer is doing this to you, your only hope is to pretty much get carried by your teammates; this is not good design.
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I agree that it shuts down Elemental well if the healer dispels. Shadow and Affliction have dispel protection with CC built in, but Ele has nothing with a CD on FS.
The One shot potential in SL is disgusting for so many and will agree it’s absurd the damage Ele and others can get. I don’t think it’s much to ask for dispel protection in some way… I mean Eles gameplay involves running around pressing instant casts, not exactly engaging gameplay in the first place for PvP.
Maybe FS does half of its remaining duration in damage when dispelled? Something simple like that. Though I would prefer the CD being removed or something more extreme, CD being removed would make Necrolord exponentially better in PvE though.
LSX isn’t breaking the game because lock isn’t allowed to get much UA dispel protection off while running for its life half the game in high rated. Night Fae UA has good kiteability but low ramp damage and very easy to train into the ground if they aren’t running because of a 3 minute wall. aka not spamming UAs.
I agree to disagree bud, and just because you are 2700+ player too doesn’t mean I’m bringing my ego into this. I’m just saying from my eyes flameshock needs to be fixed but the options of non dispellable and no cd is probably not healthy for the game with our current level of damage even being spam dispelled.
Clearly someone didn’t watch the Tourney matches they participated in.
Agree, and ele isn’t really among the top culprits for this although it is up there… But I’d gladly give up SK entirely to get better quality-of-life regarding Flame Shock.
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I watched quite a few LSX games in the tourneys, Ele Fire Mage Hpal is just a better comp with better burst and cc profile. Sure lock was able to get good spacing and damage out occasionally but many times they are constantly trying to counter goes with ports and line of sight.
Giving up Stormkeeper would be boring as heck and we would just revert to being flameshock and lavaburst bots spamming purge and shear outside of that. SK gives us a good damage profile with the primordial and lines up with good mael generation.
Some season in Legion was the only time I got 2K because me and a friend wanted the mog, so forgive me if I am mistaken here.
In Legion I believe FS had no CD, was Ele busted in Legion or was it about the same as now or was it worse? I believe Ele was quite good then with the combo of storekeeper maybe being better before with 3 charges. The games were slower (I think) than they are now.
So is it really that FS would make Ele OP or that damage in SL in general is tuned so high in PvP that the slightest edge tips the scale.
I don’t follow, isn’t this already what is happening for the past 3 expansions now?
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Then how can you make the arguments you made above?
Look at Ele in Legion - This is generally considered the best iteration of ele ever, and it had spammable Flame Shock.
All available evidence contradicts the argument that reliable flame shock uptime is ‘gamebreaking’
You’re entitled to your opinion. I disagree, and so do most eles I’ve talked to that have played for multiple seasons.
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Just how our damage profile is right now flameshock being kinda weak is the only thing holding us back from being the most broken caster in the game. If we had dispel protection on it, it would increase our damage dramatically in rbgs, and multi target in arena as we’d always crit in our goes.
Right now SK, Mael Pooling, and Hexing outside of Purge 123/Shear 123 separates a good ele from a great one like Zeep. If we dropped SK than we would be back to just a one dot class with no extra dimension of burst with SK where many times we have to fake cast multiple times to get it off where as Lavaburst goes are based off the proc from the lava resurgence legendary.
Legion Ele was overtuned as heck, why is that healthy game state. It’s like asking for another defensive or offensive ability for warrior right now.
You keep making these claims that don’t actually have any evidence supporting them.
No, it isn’t.
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This is what you get for purging mages combust. What goes around comes around.
I think Zeepeye is the only elemental shaman actually doing well in AWC tournament, and even then, he got absolutely TRASHED by rogue/mage and ret/war and had to sit the bench. like i dont think any other ele teams playing an elemental shamans have even gotten wins. Some teams have ele’s riding the bench, or players that can alt elemental, but zeepeye is the only one getting work done.
What are you even talking about? Goes around comes around?
If that was true more people would have spam CC like you do. It’s funny because Resto Shamans do, and with Hpal being the primary healer Resto Shamans can mess with mages all day.
What goes around comes around. Let’s also not forget the fact Shamans lost abilities because an ability was “too close” to Blink.
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With all Mages running Triune , you cannot purge anything off anymore at least before you are half to full dead during Combust .
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