How is the score calculated in these charts?
You know, I’m not 100% sure how they go about calculating the score on the site.
But it’s based on the Mythic raids, all bosses, all percentiles and all ilvls
8.0 is skewed for sure though. When trying to look up Uldirs raid, it didn’t have any info pop up by default. Had to do a “an entire tier” option for it to show.
And 8.3 is pre-nerf, and pre-patch not included because…well, pre-patch lol
Those are not part of the Feral community, they are the forum casuals who don’t play the spec and just want to RP as a cat while pressing 3 buttons like a DH and not embarrass themselves on the meter.
There are clear changes that are consistent wished for across Discord and forums, those being utility and bleed damage.
Also you should never use ‘all percentiles’ when making conclusions through Warcraftlogs, stick to 95 and up. All percentiles includes silly deaths, and people who can’t play their class. Performance is best judged based on people who know how to play the game, and their class.
It really does not though, the last time you could say that was early Legion. Feral has seen so many significant changes the past 2 years that I wouldn’t rate it anywhere near what it used to be in terms of complexity. I think you need to venture out of your own spec a bit more, because the perception that Feral is hard is outdated and incorrect; I could name many specs that are harder, but overall, WoW specs are much easier than in the past.
The biggest problem we have is that while we might have been middle of the pack we had to work our fuzzies off to get there.
Any time we had to break to use utility you could automatically forget having a respectable parse against any other class. Need to use a brez? Gotta hard cast it then spend another global shifting to go back to your rotation, which is more convoluted than any other class.
I could be the top of the meters on one pull and drop 10k dps on another and the only thing I could tell my key group was I overcapped and lost a global. No other class had to deal with that. The changes into slands doesn’t look like an improvement either.
Feral is a labor of love and its gotten tedious after so long.
6 Likes
While I can concede with those points, and as much as it sucks, everyone from all forms of content deserve to put in some input.
All percentiles covers everyone though. Progression guilds, PuGs, silly deaths. Not just the people who out gear and put the content on farm and are able to pad their numbers. If we’re only going to take into consideration the top 5%, then there’s no need for the forums. Because 99% of the people on the forums do not fit into that criteria. And no offense, but that means you too.
There are more than just world first contenders playing the game.
I play multiple specs and classes but thank you. I never once claimed that Feral was hard. I said it was more punishing. As far as complexity, yes, all specs are a shell of their former selves. But as it stands now, Feral is one of the more complex DPS specs to play optimally.
You can pick up a DH and press 3 buttons and do “good”. You’ll be miles behind the DH that presses 6 buttons, but you’ll still do good.
Pick up a Feral and press 3 buttons and you’ll be doing negative DPS lol. Press 6 buttons and now you’re on par with the 3 button DH. The 6 button DH isn’t even in sight though. That’s what I was referring to with the complexity/reward system.
1 Like
This. I’m sorry, but it’s not that Feral is “hard”, it’s that other specs are so much easier to compete with, you might as well be blindfolded.
2 Likes
I think the foundation of feral isn’t bad. Apply bleeds, build combo points, bite. Straight forward for the most part. I would like to see some talents that maybe play into bleeds or bites or whatever. Feral has alot of dead and boring talents that could be replaced with some fun choices. Also reduce beserk to two minutes.
Also LotP baseline please. Thanks.
3 Likes
I think the foundation is solid too. But I think there should also be more emphasis on bleeds.
Since Rake has a shorter duration and needs to be applied more often, I think it would be fun to have Rake be the pressure move. Rip is fine (assuming the Rake change), maybe lower Bites a little, and increase the upfront and bleed damage of Rake.
Take some talents and work it into kind of like the old Rogue Hemorrhage talent. Bleeds deal their damage 10% faster per bleed on the target (so up to 30%).
Just throwing things out there now. Just finishing up with work, and been up for 20 hours at this point so things may not make sense
The most fundamental reason is that BZ’s expectation (or ideal?) game mode for Druid, a professional type, is to create DPS and assist the team. But they messed up
In the past few versions, it is true that DPS can take into account the auxiliary effect, but they feel that it is too strong for Druid, making the current DPS poor and weak, and the auxiliary ability has almost no effect.
But I have to say that in the past 5 or 6 versions, the mechanical design is still closer to the players’ needs.
Really compared to those useless affinity skills support team
I prefer to focus on DPS output
But… after so long, BZ itself hasn’t realized or been blinded?
The level of talents such as Druid 30 is indeed a failure product of the idea of auxiliary combat style.
1 Like
What? You want the finisher we build up 5cp for, one of the few abilities justifying the existence of our mastery, to do more than 10% of our damage?
/s
I think that bleed centric feral is probably the most prevalent class fantasy for them.
I’d love to see bleeds be more like 50 or 60 percent of ferals damage. But to make that not be a handicap on faster paced content, you’d almost need to give them some way to burn applied bleeds at some inefficient conversion.
But even if you solved the problem of bleed heavy class in brief encounters, it will never happen. Because PvP ruins everything druid. Strong bleeds in PvE, almost by necessity means the ability to stack bleeds on players, and guarantee that they did from them.
2 Likes
This.
And you can fix feral moonfire by applying our mastery to it and/or giving it a armor pen debuff like old faerie fire
6 Likes
If I told you to round up a bunch of mediocre or even bad players, and pit them against each other, and said their results will determine how well each of their class is balanced, then you’d call me crazy. Similarly you can’t factor in data that includes early deaths.
Also you mention gear but exactly that, all percentiles can include low ilvls getting carried, people who don’t even know what trinkets or stats to use, and so forth. Random gear levels mess with the distribution, at least with higher percentiles you can guarantee they are all relatively close in ilvl, know what stats to use, know how to play.
Balance is based on those who play their class well, until one is playing their class they have no right to talk about balance, because they should be focusing on themself and their own mistakes before complaining about the class - blaming the class, above all, is a typical amateur mistake.
Why do you think sims are valued? What if sims started throwing in a bunch of random errors, that would completely mess them up and they’d be inaccurate. Sims are mathematical and data-driven, they don’t include a random amount of errors like what a mediocre or bad player would have, because that wouldn’t be a good indication of anything.
Ughh also, excuse me? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/frostmourne/cheesey#partition=-1
Don’t start talking about areas you don’t know, there are about 3 Feral’s in total I see here who have even cleared mythic n’zoth. Post on your main and then talk to me about logs, balance, or Feral theory.
2 Likes
Not entirely. Balancing classes around Mythic raids I’m okay with. Not taking into consideration the majority of the player base (more or less most of the casuals), is a bit faulty. You can clear Mythic raids as a casual or as part of PuGs. And some times, early deaths happen. Can’t just sit there and scrap a log because you got hit with a stroke of bad luck. Me knowing how to play my class doesn’t stop the healer from having a derpdedurr moment and not dispel me or heal me from unavoidable raid damage, resulting in a premature death.
Taking padded numbers also throws off the balance and skews things. Sometimes for the better, some times for the worst. Before I took my vaca, I recall a certain raid (BoD?) where they stacked 5 SPriests that allowed them to cheese through mechanics simply due to the insane dps they were putting out.
Sims are great, don’t get me wrong. They tell you what looks best on paper, when performance to perfection. But sims also allow you to add in error for all the obvious reasons. Lag / server issue / human error. So they do technically give yo9u the option to include a random amount of errors. Where you adjust it is based on you and your performances and your level of play. You, you could probably set it to be only a 5% error margin. Me? I’d probably set mine to 15% because I know I don’t play at that perfection level.
I’m well aware. I looked into it before I made my comment. And it still stands and goes back to what I said about padding numbers. Don’t get me wrong, it’s and impressive chart to look at.
But you didn’t log but 1 kill before it got nerfed. And that ranked in at 43%.
Then it got nerfed and you went back in. Looking at your best logs, very well done. You averaged in the top 86%. But your average, is only 67%. Then it gets nerfed again, and you come back yet again. Now with your best logs, you’re sitting in the top 98% on average. Hats off to you. Not denying your level of skill or dedication. But even so, your average is still 89%. So on some kills you logged a 99%. Fantastic my man! But the median is also only 92% meaning you’ve got some logs down in the 80-85% range. Still damn good. But falls out of your 95%
So not denying your skill…but puffing your chest out on things that are trivial does nothing in terms of how to balance. While you’re progressing and struggling a little. That’s when the data matters.
It would be like going back and steam rolling Uldir and being like “ah nah, Ferals are fine”. This is why all the data matters. Not just the best of the best in trivial content.
So again, not discrediting you or your logs…I definitely looked into them before making my statement, but it still holds true. Your best logs are padded on trivial content.
1 Like
I think maybe I could just say “I don’t think I’m interested in playing a seasonal MMO anymore”… That seems to nail it.
2 Likes
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feral-feedback-sabertooth-is-fine/620696
Agree. I’m at the point that I believe stacking Rip damage on re-use would be extremely good feeling. Increase damage per combo point, and if built for bleeds, let them possibly tick up to Shred+ presses.
I haven’t mathed out the average number of full CP Rips you could stack to calculate the top end per tick damage, but … Wow, that would bring it a whole lot closer to that OG Feral feeling I’m begging for. And if SbT had synergy with it (stacking some Bite damage into the Rip instead of a flat 20% buff to Bite), that would make twisting Bite and Rip rewarding in the SbT format.
2 Likes
I don’t know why I have to argue about logs with someone who hides their main, but you are literally just proving my point in the above. If its a 10 min fight, you could die anywhere from 1 second right up to 9 min and all would have huge variations on data. It’s not just including deaths which don’t give any accurate representation of a class, but those deaths then themselves fluctuate wildly.
Yes but that’s a controlled margin of error. Its not random logs from anywhere that all vary so wildly. Once again, a noob is absolutely NO accurate representation of how good a class is, nor is dying 30 seconds into a fight or even dying 30 seconds before the end of a fight.
Pre-nerf was 1 kill, which means nothing. Secondly that 86 is skewed by a 37 when I died early in final phase cara, as well as other factors such as kicking ball on xanesh etc.
Moreover above anything, I had terrible corruption until the vendor. This tier is not a good indication of anything because of the wild RNG, a lot of people in the Druid discord had 3 sev + 2-3 strikethrough before the corruption vendor, I was running deadly momentum and tentacle most of prenerf 1.
This is why your posts are so silly, you’re clearly not a raider who studies logs and have admitted you don’t really have a good grasp on logs. I literally work in market research, its frustrating seeing people be so stupid with data. Its why it frustrates me people here being so awful with numbers in general.
I also took a 3 or so week break when my first guild disbanded in pre-nerf 1.
Also my median average is 93 which is pretty consistent with Feral’s around me, and even above some who rank higher. My guild is quite a low world ranking guild (world 1140~) which means we were still progressing well into corruption vendor, including a very long extension for N’zoth with no farm bosses killed to log off.
And yes everyone has lower logs such as 80-85, that’s normal. But if I die, that shouldn’t be an indication of Feral s performance.
Here’s the fun part for you - this is the first tier I’ve played Feral since WOD, about 4 years ago. That just shows how easy this spec is. My guild even has very low kill speeds, which are another big factor in getting high logs.
I never said my logs exclusively were to be any indicator, and as I mentioned this tier is messed up because of corruption being such a huge x factor. Pre-vendor it was total RNG meaning you could totally outperform someone if you got lucky with gear. Post-vendor you could stack infinite stars or other gimmicks to get a top log (none of which I ever did).
You are the one who decided to try and insult my logs, I have never linked them on this forum before until you tried to have a go at me in your prior comment, hence why I linked them - not to ‘gloat,’ but if someone who hides their main wants to pretend they have a better understanding about logs and uses a cheapshot like that, of course I’m going to link them.
1 Like
Ugh here we go.
My main isn’t hidden. It just all depends on where I post from which toon get slapped up on the forums is all. I’ve posted between both this and my main, it’s not hard to find or figure out. And I never said that deaths don’t give variations in data collection. I was simply stating that a bad log is not indictive of being a bad player or not knowing your class, since you claimed that the only people who know how to play and therefor the only ones who opinion matter are those who constantly fall in the 95th percentile.
So the only way to get accurate data on how good a class is…is to trivialize the content, and log raids as you treat bosses as training dummies and just focus on pushing numbers…then why don’t people just log numbers based off of training dummies?
No, that 86 is the average of your best logs after the first nerf. I’m not talking specific logs of a specific boss fight.
Umm…your median average from the first nerf is 67.3 and the average from the second nerf is 89.2. Making your median average 78.3. That’s your all around median. Your median based off of your “best” logs is 93.
No, just according to you, makes you an amateur and means any opinion or idea you have invalid as per:
This is why I said you can’t just neglect a bad log. Some times people have a stroke of bad luck, even when they know their class and are good at it. Case and point: your early death on Xanesh. You clearly know what you’re doing, but still ended up dying and getting a crappy log because of that. Doesn’t mean we just dismiss everything you say.
Quote me where I’ve insulted you. Because this entire time, every time your logs have been brought up, I’ve actually commemorated you on a job well done, every time…so there is/was no cheapshot. The only thing I said about your logs, is that we have to dismiss anything you say because you do not fit into the own criteria of:
And you:
So…do we take your feedback as someone who knows their class and actually has a decent understanding…or do we scrap everything you said because you don’t fall into that 95th percentile and all of this is meaningless?
And legitimate question: but why no Pre-Nerf raiding? Or was it just not being logged? Ferals were in a good spot Pre-Nerf in this last raid tier anyway. And it seems with each raid nerf, Ferals started dropping down the list (gonna assume this is from corruption and the vendor)
1 Like
Saw a guide on Icy Veins about Feral today.
Overall just seems to highlight that we need to wait . . and see . . what happens ?
Well it’s pre-patch…no one should be taking the state of anything right now serious 