Feral essay 2

I counted the buttons correctly, the second rip is a typo. rake, rip, brutal slash, ferocious bite, shred, regrowth, thrash, tiger’s fury. Im sure upon inspection you will see the arithmetic is there.

I have not mentioned moonfire or lunar inspiration once, I dont know what you are trying to say.

I do agree that those were left out but they were not forgotten, I could just as easily cite iron jaws or incarn build and add a button or complexity to the feral rotation. This was a strict comparison of ferals optimal build to DH’s optimal build.

The above mentioned abilities carry 0 relevance for optimal DH damage, and using it as a gotcha in terms of missing out on DH abilities is silly, I could just as easily include moonfire and maim in feral by that standard, and again still vastly out numbers DH’s buttons.
I do admit I missed immolation aura, that fury generation cant be written off as a useless button.

Multiple classes in WoW have a passive DoT to maintain, adding an extra step of depth to the spec, ele, locks, dk, rogue etc. feral happens to have more whereas DH has zero its worth mentioning because it shows the rift between the two specs even more.

I do admit, I completely missed this and wish I had it in the original post.

Nemesis where a player takes advantage of a dying mob, to spread the effect to all other mobs of that type. There is so much more to DH that you have simply ignored.

Citing barely used niche abilities that belong to the weak DH build doesn’t strengthen your argument. Every class has weird builds they can do that can add some useless flair. Feral can run iron jaws or incarn build with MoC and VoP. We could go round and round about every conceivable build and use them as gotchas in an argument.

I could write another essay post about all the little things you have to remember as feral, I also stated I wasnt going to go into rotation. You also didn’t mention pre-regrowthing -> stealth -> berserk -> tiger’s fury to cap your energy the moment before you hit the super buffed rake. Its pointless to make remarks like that especially to someone who has mastered the spec.

Easy boat

Hard boat

You contradict yourself the very line after you say its not a good analogy. Perhaps I was not clear enough, The hard boat will yield a reward for playing it right and punish you for the mistake. If for some reason you miss your stealth rake off the bat or miss your first BT + TF rip, you will be punished for it severely

If you dont have blade dance on CD before popping chaotic transformation eyebeams, you are hardly missing out and will have multiple chances do the combo again to little detriment to your overall performance.

The only thing I agree with is that in the boat game the hard boats will yield better performance over all in the right hands, in WoW that performance I would argue is locked into niche utility/capabilities of the class as most classes are balanced within 15kish dps of eachother at endgame dps, I guess I agree and disagree.

This.

First of all, I dont know what developer thing you are referring to, and but in terms of the macro remark… how? PS regrowth are on the global, what ability can a feral bind regrowth to in order to mindlessly cast regrowth aside from tiger’s fury? Im genuinely curious. Id love to think there is more to learn from the spec I love, or if there is a way to make a macro that I can spam to do my rotation to some degree.

It is never hard casted in combat so either you or the devs you are citing have no idea what they are talking about. and unless im wrong and you are indeed remarking about instant casts, feral already has times in the rotation where you are sitting around and waiting for energy, in most cases the instant cast regrowth can fill that void while waiting for energy. If this reasoning came from the devs I am deeply disappointed in that.

Thank you for taking the time to read to post and remark upon it.

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In true comparison of options available, Moonfire should have been added for accuracy of your assessment.

Immolation Aura is a talent, and also optimal, which concludes your analysis in inaccurate.

Because DH is not a dot spec.

If you’re going to build an essay around complexity, you’d best not ignore options that offer such playstyles, despite tuning.

This is your essay. You should have included these details.

Of course you don’t know :roll_eyes:

Again, of course you don’t know. Not even keeping up to date with the changes and ignorantly thinking Ashmane’s Frenzy is returning at face value.

You’ve failed in an accurate comparison on both sides, like you’ve failed to understand the developers own words and intentions behind Bloodtalons.

I suggest you educate yourself further.

That makes zero sense. My comparison does not need the F tier talents included in it to make it credible.

a single missed talent does not invalidate my analysis.

classes that have dots built into them arent dot specs. I can use dots as layer to a classes complexity.

The essay is built around mandatory complexity on ferals part not frivolous complexity like you are trying to base your counter argument off of. Because you can do doesnt mean you should do it, it is not my responsibility to try and imagine the non meta build and argue about them when they were never apart of the discussion to begin with.

Me not citing every facet of feral dps doesnt mean your argument gets stronger by pointing out things I didnt cite and act like i left it absent out of ignorance. At no point in the essay did remark about the actual ability combos and the step by step rotation facets. not sure why you think this is effective for your argument. Pointing out an absence of information does not even remotely equate to ignorance of information. The remark I made when I replied to you was to try and show you how silly the remark you made is.

There is very little I do not know about this spec. Read what you actually said and then compare it to how bloodtalons is used in practice, I will literally show you in game if im not getting the point across textually, but regrowth macros and hard casting regrowth mid combat is not a thing at all. I dont know what else to tell you man.

In my other post, I never said with certainty that Ashamans was coming back

Not sure why you are so condescending and being rude. you have 0 reason to be like that and I am respecting you despite your replies and suggesting I dont know how my own spec works.

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Yet you have no idea on the developers very public stance on Bloodtalons, both in August 2018, and recently in Alpha.

The simple fact you’ve celebrated the return of Ashmane’s Frenzy in the Alpha, is a clear indication that you have complete ignorance in what is actually happening with this spec.

Looks at the title: Ashmane’s Frenzy is back baby :roll_eyes:

Not to mention the fact that it hasn’t shown in any testing since it’s been datamined on August 9. But hey, you’ve kept up with the spec :thinking:

First, if you’re going to do an essay, be accurate on both viewpoints. You weren’t.

If you’re going to be knowledgeable in what is happening with the spec, in both abilities and talents, you’ll need to understand that developers have communicated their intentions. Not knowing these, and then claiming there’s little you don’t know, paints an image of compete ignorance of the spec, and one’s own intelligence.

I believe Rockford is talking about a
/cast [@player] regrowth macro, and not a macro you can tie into your rotation. I haven’t played feral much in many years because of the poor reputation (most times well deserved), but from the outside I would be sad to see the passive survivability of constant regrowths go away. Ferals damage is obviously balanced around those regrowths, so cutting out the regrowth doesn’t magically increase dps, it just changes the theme while taking away survivability.

The only thing weird about current blood talons is the name to me. Fresh claws or something to reflect the healing portion would have made more sense.

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Weren’t kidding about this being an essay, ese.

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The problem with Feral we had for the past couple expansions will be gone in SL. We now have options to offer extreme raid and M+ utility. The simple fact that AoE is capped at 5, and DoTs are not, is enough to make Feral worth bringing to M+ again. Add to that HotW, allowing for clutch tank or healer replacement, and (hope it stays) Leader of the Pack being group wide again, we’re gonna be solid.

In PvP we’re losing some defensive options in exchange for more crowd control and better utility, which I’ll take all day long. I’m 100% fine with Feral being more of a glass canon outside of bear, and a target you either have to focus or watch them heal their ally back to full. Similar to how it was in TBC and WotLK.

TL:DR Feral doesn’t need to get 40 old abilities back, it got back 4 very strong ones, now it’s all down to numbers tuning and scaling. Please Blizzard, don’t bone us on the latter. I don’t want to be useless for 4 tiers only to be top tier on the last…again.

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whats that expression… Some mofos are always trying to ice skate uphill…

That’s feral defenders in a nutshell.

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Literally im about to graduate electrical engineering school lmao, ones own intelligence is not in question. And again, little i dont know about the spec, i didnt know aboutblizzards opinion about bloodtalons, but how does that tie into this? how does blizzard wanting to change it do anything for your argument, aside from showing a piece of information I didnt know that has 0 to do with the essay? I didnt come on begging for it to not be changed, nor did I write as if the current iteration was going to be in shadowlands. You are finding cracks (if they can even be called that) in my argument and then setting the bar for a proper argument just above them. It would appear you are just trying to get a rise out of me and trying to be disrespectful.

Claiming I wasnt accurate about feral because I didnt go into detail about rotation nuances which i will remind you again, I also admitted that I missed things about the DH especially with chaotic transformation as it is the stier build for DH, missing that one part of DH does not invalidate my arugment.

Most of your counter argument is being based off of responses I made to you off your first response to the essay and not upon the essay after I clarified the things you brought up in your remarks respectfully, You are trying to discredit me as the writer and I attacking the responses I make to you.

I knew there was a chance ashamanes wasnt coming back and put that line it. Why is that not acceptable to you?

The only reason I suspect you are conducting yourself like this is because you enjoy it. For some reason it gives you a sense of validation to attempt and tear someones work down and position yourself above them. You saw this essay as genuine analysis that was successful in most aspects and missed the mark on others (not discussing DH chaotic transformation build) and saw the opportunity to stamp yourself to it and try to bring attention to yourself. Your argument against me now is only possible because I was genuine/honest with you and tried to discuss with you and you are now using my responses, not the content of my essay to try and grandstand. You have

Even now Im not sinking down and insulting you back and questioning your intelligence, perhaps you are not used to genuine interaction on the internet and only interact with individuals as if they are a troll as that is how most people conduct themselves online and I don’t blame you for that. Don’t be jaded towards authentic discussion.

Your argument is loaded with logical fallacies
ad hominem - Attacking my intelligence
red herring - randomly citing rake opener and then upon my response saying im ignorant of feral gameplay because I didnt use the one specific response and including your original remark, and then carrying the discussion away from its actual content and onto me
hasty generalization -

cherry picking/sharpshooter - like I mentioned earlier you are finding minor cracks in the analysis and basing your argument around those cracks as well as your ad hominem remarks
Now fallacies dont mean you are automatically discredited, You did make a good point about me missing the few finer points to chaotic transformation build, and had you made the rest of your argument as concrete as that I would be hard pressed to discuss against what I straight up missed. but you didnt do that, you were able to rely on that nougat of knowledge and then left the discussion technique in the dust in favor of logical fallacy.

You also do not acknowledge if you are wrong about something for instance miscounting the feral buttons, they were not miscounted, without the second rip (typo) it still came out to 8, I knew how many buttons there were before typing out the list, a simple typo on my part to include the 2nd rip.

You have continuously popped offensive CD’s in the argument always moving to the next fallacy or critique but have yet to pop any defensives to my counter arguments.

I’m happy for you, but that does not excuse you for ignorance in other areas.

While we also have the recent developer remarks on the intent behind Bloodtalons:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-druid-class-changes/490706/34?u=rockford-caelestrasz
As much as you favour Bloodtalons, it’s gone for good reason. Considering the fact you’re unaware of such a macro that’d “mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself”, shows you’re not as well educated about the nuances of the spec as you suggest.

Furthermore, if you’re going to call something an essay, you’re best not to do it in half measures, in going into detail of set ups, and non-optimal builds that can become the dominant choice due to tuning.

This is not a thing. You are appealing to a remark made by blizzard that is not realistic, you do not play feral, you are reading something stated by blizzard, and misinterpreting it. They are suggesting that you use regrowth on people who need it (extra work, which i agree with) or “cast it mindlessly on yourself”, there is no bloodtalons macro that ferals must or want to use to make it easier to cast regrowth on yourself, nor do you need a macro to make it function correctly. I will explain this, if im hitting a boss and i need to activate blood talons i just hit regrowth it AUTOMATICALLY puts it on me. What macro could I possibly use that could be better than this. The only macro you could use to max out your regrowth healing is to do a [targettarget] macro where it will automatically cast the heal on the target the boss is hitting making you an effective tank healer over the course of the fight, but this macro falls apart when things like range or los come into play and now the button is effectively broken and you have to press your standard regrowth. I will admit defeat and delete this post if you can show this magical macro that makes it easier to spam on myself than how the game already supports its use.

Whatever I want to talk about can be the essay, I dont have to remark on every concievable build because they could maybe be good if blizzard buffs them. That is a waste of time. Am i going to go into different stat builds as well? You are suggesting this is not an essay because I didnt dive down the rabbit hole of every single potential build. The essay is concise and focused your criticism is misguided on that front.

You also linked boomy information and I have no idea the point you are trying to make with it.

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Just because you are completely ignorant of a thing, doesn’t mean it does not exist…

You assume that a player is only active on the character they’re posting on :roll_eyes:

Again, ignorance :roll_eyes:

Then consider your information to be highly inaccurate…

You’ve simply ignored the information on Feral within the link…

One could say:
Because the highest competition Feral faces, is the need to re-roll to boomie, on consideration to public perception?

But again, you wouldn’t recognise that :thinking:

just link the macro, you arent arguing anymore. Say something of substance.
So im supposed to take this

from this

So by this statement you do play feral. THEN SHOW THE MACRO OR ADMIT YOU CAN PLAY FERAL AND USE BLOOD TALONS JUST FINE W/O THE MACRO CONTRARY TO WHAT BLIZZARD SAYS, OR ADMIT YOU PLAY FERAL SUBOPTIMALLY W/O BLOOD TALONS AND HAVE NO BUSINESS ARGUING ABOUT IT WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS MASTERED IT OR ADMIT YOU DONT PLAY FERAL AND WERE JUST BEING A SHILL. edit caps

Now admitting to ignorance on the matter instead of denial?
That’s a bit special…

In general, a large amount of players consider the below, a safeguard against shifting out of form for their Bloodtalons activation.

#showtooltip
/console autounshift 0
/cast Regrowth
/console autounshift 1

This simply reduces the heal as a tool to activate the talent, or in Blizzard’s own words; “mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself”, without consideration of utilising the PS proc, this is regarded as a degenerative playstyle.

Whilst you can absolutely improve on this macro, most that would regard such, would simply ignore such actions, whether it’s needed, or not:

#showtooltip
/console autounshift 0
/cast [@mouseover, help, nodead] Regrowth; Regrowth
/console autounshift 1

You do realise that link titled “FEEDBACK: Druid Class Changes”, has the most recent developer communications on the subject?

In case you’ve no idea how links work, because you’ve shown ignorance up to this point, I will directly quote both August 2018 and recent correspondence:

Bloodtalons does a great job at adding complexity to the rotation, but we’re not sure the method in which it does that is right for the spec long-term. Bloodtalons asks you to frequently cast a Regrowth in exchange for its buff, which in a group/raid, means either you’re required to keep an eye on group/raid frames (which is a lot to ask) or you make a macro to mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself (which isn’t great).

The goals of Bloodtalons were 1) to keep the things we think people saw as cool about it (adding some planning to the rotation, snapshot bleeds are a good payoff for a bit of complexity) while getting rid of the weirdness of using Regrowth as a trigger. Many people dislike the latter, and frankly we think it’s pretty weird too. We don’t have an exact further revision to report yet, but the feedback is making me think it still needs to somehow buff spells other than Rip.

So in you confusing a link with Boomie conversations, I suggest you educate yourself in how to click on a link…

This is accurate.
I do play Feral.

On that account, do you regard that knowledge of the macro signifies that one plays the spec, of which you seem to completely ignorant of?

So precious :hugs:

So you’re bitter about your loss of Bloodtalons, without previous knowledge of the facts behind it’s redesign.

I cordially invite you to familiarize yourself with the Dunning-Kruger effect.

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first off, healing touch is not in BFA, copying and pasting macros you found on the internet does not equate to you knowing what is going on BECAUSE as feral you do not need to unshift PERIOD in bfa. You have expertly exposed your lack of knowledge on the spec that you have continually claimed I do not know enough about, yet I am here correcting every false claim you are making about the spec. You actually linked boomy information and didnt take the time to crop it out, it looks like you were hastily grabbing what info looked good to you to try and win the argument but you actually linked the wrong spec info and then talked about bloodtalons in the very next line. If you were genuinely trying to only link the dev post, you wouldve actually done that, because you then defended the post and talked down to me when I said you linked boomy info instead of admitting you messed up.

I have not once in our argument or the essay expressed grief over losing bloodtalons
You also didnt answer the question

[quote=“Kíñg-thrall, post:18, topic:510727”]

if you could clarify which of the above descriptions applies to you that would be great. One of them has to.

Which is what the macro, being referred to by the developers, is used for to this day. Just because you are/were completely ignorant to it’s effects, doesn’t mean that it does not exist.

So for practice sake, as an exercise; go ahead and link the appropriate material in a quote, as you were clearly unable to follow a simple link to engage in what I may have been discussing, instead of assuming the conversations had shifted to Boomie.

Doesn’t surprise me that you’d limit someone to one category :roll_eyes:

But could you actually consider being educated into the history of why developers have seen fit to re-design an increasingly polarising option for the spec, a shill?

That macro is not used to this day, healing touch is not in the game. You are saying that in bfa, that blizzard does not like people having to use macros to use blood talons, this is categorically false. you are defending something that does not exist. and I can 100% prove in game
you wont answer the question because you know you mispoke and got called out for it and if you answer the question will heavily damage your credibility.
If you address that remark I will not argue any more and let your answer be the end of it. My guess is you know you are in to deep and you have doubled down so far you are about to get to the 4th ring of hell and wont admit it. You cannot fathom you got outwitted because you are so full of yourself and think so little of others that you wont even address the logical corner you are backed into

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I don’t have to say it.
If you’re unaware on how these links work, you can click on them, and find that it was quoted from Blizzard.

Leaving the thread on the ignorance and inaccuracy behind your “essay”, complete lack of knowledge of developer communication, and of the macros involved in such correspondence.

You wont answer the question bro.

Blizzard and you are wrong about the macros and I can prove that in game 100%.

Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy and has been a crutch for you to remark about how I am mad or ignorant about blood talon changes yet you wont cite me saying them… Because I didnt. And if i did, quote me. BLOOD TALONS CHANGES WERE NOT A SINGLE PART OF THE ESSAY NOR WAS BLIZZARDS COMMENTARY ABOUT BLOOD TALONS. You brought it up and made it a point of debate and then used that point of debate to trash the essay when it was never a part of the essay in the first place.

You made no points except to react rudely to me.
You did nothing but try to bully me and make yourself feel good.
and I am still being respectful to you.
You are a coward for not answering the question and quoting out of context

what i actually said

Your argument was you just insulting me and making yourself feel good.