Feedback: Warriors

General Feedback/Main Points

At this point I have several pages worth of feedback, but I’ll try to keep this relatively consolidated to each tree. The TL:DR version is that while the individual talents within the Class, Arms, and Fury trees are largely great additions, the layouts and pathing in particular are very linear, resulting in the majority of builds using 90% of the same talents. I really like what I can make, but I feel like I keep making the same thing every time. This may be intentional, as I don’t know how many “hard” choices there are supposed to be before the final tier, but it feels like I end up taking all the throughput talents and have nothing left for any of the defensive/utility/tertiary options. Consolidating some of those “automatic choices” (like the many “improved” rank talents) and adding additional pathing could open up new alternatives.

In general, each tree could use more cross-pathing between branches, particularly around rows 4-6 and 8-9), in order to alleviate cookie cutter build dependencies, but the biggest offenders here are the “+2% secondary stat” nodes in Row 8 of all three trees. These feel particularly uninspired, especially when the Protection tree has vastly superior versions (Cruel Strikes vs Focused Vigor). I desperately hope they just are placeholder, considering the way they wall off the signature and capstone talents below.

Another issue is that the Arms and Fury trees feature several “Improved” talents which are virtually required for the spells to function correctly, the most egregious of which include Improved Execute (both), Improved Whirlwind (Fury), Improved Rampage, and Improved Enrage (this one may be borderline insofar as “required”, but so high in value that you’ll never not take it). This severely limits early build diversity and actively works against nearby talents which don’t provide such specialization-defining effects. Highly recommend baking those listed above into their respective baseline abilities.


Class Talent Tree Analysis

  • Battle Stance and Berserker Stance both do the same thing - increase damage. Players will simply choose the stronger of the two (Battle is currently ~4x stronger for Fury and even more for Arms) without ever switching to the other. Stances may be nostalgic, but these don’t really serve a purpose or oppose one another the way Defensive Stance’s combined benefit and drawback does.
  • Fast Footwork and Siphoning Strikes seem like nice to have talents that will rarely be used. You will never not talent Rally, and if you do have leftover points, they will go into Inspiring Presence, Spell Reflect, Storm Bolt, or Piercing Howl before Cacophonous Roar. In short, the number of “required” utility nodes alongside prerequisite talents for progressing deeper in the tree make it very hard to take some of these otherwise compelling choices.
  • Rallying Cry is missing the rank 2 effect, similar to many other spells which did not have them turned into follow-on “improved” talents.
  • Cacophonous Roar needs to be much stronger in order to justify its placement as dead end talent. Dan_War suggested replacing it with some form of Menace (if not the knockback, at least the cower in place), which would be much more useful from a PvE perspective.
  • Intervene is a great mobility tool that I hate using, as the attack-interception has a very good chance of getting you killed in split second situations where you don’t have time to choose who to use it on. I would very much like a version of this without that effect, perhaps with an optional follow-on talent re-adding that effect alongside safeguard for increased value.
  • Rend, Thunderclap, Blood & Thunder, and Crushing Force are questionable inclusions for Fury (technically usable, but bloating the rotation and taking rage away from Rampage), but the only way to progress down the middle path toward Dauntless Duelist. More on this in the Fury-specific feedback, but better pathing options would solve the issue without necessitating their removal. Another option would be simply adding Rampage damage to Crushing Force.
  • Thunderclap costs less rage and deals more damage than Rend, and while my intent isn’t to focus on tuning in this feedback, the addition of Blood & Thunder creates some awkward gameplay, whereby Rend is only cast one time and then continually refreshed with Thunder Clap. Although Thunder Clap has a cooldown, its less than half the duration of the bleed, making Rend a mostly one-time per-combat keybind, which just doesn’t feel good.
  • Two-Handed Specialization is pointless for Protection/SMF Fury and Dual Wield Specialization is unusable by Arms/Prot, yet they railroad those specializations into the left or right hand sides of the tree for no particular reason. While this creates some semblance of forced diversity, it’s not really a choice, and there’s further concern that Titan’s Grip actually benefits from both simultaneously. Perhaps that’s an intentional balancing mechanism, but it feels like these two talents might be better served as a split-talent choice more centrally located within the tree… or replaced entirely, as currently they feel too strong to pass up - build defining, without affecting gameplay.
  • Spear of Bastion is a good addition, but now that it no longer deals Arcane damage, please consider toning down the visual, as it can be nearly impossible to see ground target effects underneath the graphic.
  • There’s also a very good argument to be made here for reducing Spear to a 45s cooldown in order to better align with other Warrior cooldowns (Recklessness, Warbreaker, Avatar, and the slew of new 45s CDs), or otherwise baking in Mikanikos’ CDR portion of Effusive Anima Accelerator, which was near universally used with the ability throughout Shadowlands - this could be a good follow-on talent in place of Piercing Verdict (both increasing damage, but reducing the cooldown instead of generating Rage).
  • Signet of Tormented Kings is extremely divisive due to having very strong potential but significant room for failure when you get the “wrong” proc (triggering Bladestorm on single target, or not getting Bladestorm in AoE). Most players don’t enjoy that RNG, but consider it too strong not to use, so if this is carried forward out of Shadowlands, I feel like a good change would be to make it only proc spells that specialization can use (e.g. Avatar can proc Recklessness and Recklessness can proc Avatar for Fury, but not Bladestorm. Likewise, Avatar would proc Bladestorm for Arms and Bladestorm would proc Avatar, but not Recklessness). This would remove the frustrating RNG element and make it more of a tactical tool, while in turn allowing for more controllable tuning.
  • Shockwave has very high opportunity cost, to the point where DPS will feel very hard pressed to take it over integral tools like Spear/EM and Avatar/Signet in M+, though that might actually be a good thing to keep AoE stuns in check.
  • Thunderous Roar is virtually identical in function to Odyn’s Fury, which seems strange. Should probably continue to move further away from the unrealized dragon-theme as well.

Overall, the class tree presents a number of downright wonderful tools, though while the top portion is very flexible in terms of cross pathing for customization, the middle and bottom portions have far less, especially when certain specializations are driven toward their associated weapon-passives.

I do wish there were a little more Charge/Intervene/Heroic Leap support though. Things like double/triple leap would be a very nice inclusion.

Some players have suggested Anger Management take the place of Dauntless Duelist, though I’m not sure this would work out too well, since it would become a mandatory pickup and only affects spells in each spec tree. Another popular request is moving the 2h/DW Spec talents there.


Arms and Fury specific analysis to follow in separate posts.

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Arms Talent Tree Analysis

Overall, the Arms tree has a lot of great talents, and I really like that it’s leaning into Execute more so than Fury, in order to once again distinguish how the two specs operate, rather than just doing slightly different flavors of the same thing. That said, there aren’t a lot of distinct “playstyles”, or rotation modification outside of introducing additional buttons which quickly bloat the rotation to the point of discomfort, especially in multitarget due to juggling Rend, Thunder Clap, Cleave, Storm-wind (that’s what I’m calling it now), Bladestorm/Bonegrinder, Spear/Roar, and single target abilities to stack Sweeping Strikes/Collateral Damage.

  • Like Fast Footwork and Siphoning Strikes in the class tree, it’s very hard to find room to take Fueled by Violence when Barbaric Training and Fervor of Battle have obvious throughput value. As is, 9 out of 11 points in the top section are throughput focused, which leaves very little room for PvE players to customize.
  • Fervor of Battle is in a strange position on the tree, in a spot where virtually every Warrior will take it. Considering it’s transformative nature in consolidating the rotation, I would expect it to be further down (it’s especially intriguing considering the talent’s conflicting design with Storm of Swords, requiring you to place Slam back on your bars anyway).
  • Sweeping Strikes and Colossus Smash both appear to use their Rank 1 versions, with significantly longer cooldowns than on live. In the case of Sweeping Strikes, I would recommend baking in both the rank 2 and rank 3 effects, while replacing the very lackluster “Improved Sweeping Strikes” talent with one that increased the target count to 3 targets in order to better compete with Collateral Damage.
  • Exploit the Weakness currently increases Tactician’s 1.4% proc chance to 4% per rage, which seems unintended since it results in every rage spender having an 80-160% chance to trigger the effect. The spell is clearly based on the artifact weapon trait, which instead correctly multiplies the rage cost of the ability (though that version also had three ranks + relics and no opportunity cost, so the Dragonflight talent version should probably be somewhere in the range of ~30%).
  • Improved Overpower and Mortal Strike are boring fillers, especially for 2 point talents. Feels like it would be more appropriate to separate Dreadnaught’s “Overpower has two charges” in place of Improved Overpower, to break up the talent’s effects and power.
  • Fracture reduces the duration alongside the tick rate, resulting in the same amount of damage in a shorter period of time, but Deep Wounds gets refreshed (overwriting the duration/tick rate), and Rend then needs to be recast early, which is something of a rage loss. As a result, the actual damage potential from this talent is fairly low in PvE.
  • Collateral Damage has fantastic synergy with Storm of Swords, but feels much harder to stack while also adding Cleave and Thunder Clap (Blood & Thunder) to the multitarget toolkit. Still, it vastly outshines Improved Sweeping Strikes (see previous feedback above).
  • Cleave is a great ability that feels like it contributes to crowding the multitarget rotation when added on top of Rend, Thunder Clap, Spear of Bastion, Thunderous Roar, some form of Whirlwind, and continuing to use MS/Overpower/Execute during Sweeping Strikes. Given that it already benefits from Dreadnaught, I wonder if Cleave could simply replace Mortal Strike and benefit from the rest of its interactions as well?
  • Bloodsurge is great callback to the one good element of WoD. Love to see it, though there is some concern that, alongside all of the class talents, Arms’ potential rage income is outpacing its ability to spend. This is probably more the fault of War Machine and Signet proccing Recklessness, but I’m reminded of the WoD alpha version of Arms in which Execute could be cast at any health % with a high (~60) rage cost, halved below 20%. Something like this could help reign in Arms positive rage economy, though it would probably need to be a bottom row and build defining talent.
  • Juggernaut should have a substantially longer duration, as dropping stacks was the main complaint with the ability throughout Legion, at least 15 seconds. An idea I personally like is making it a debuff limited to one target at a time, instead of a buff on the player, with a 1-2 minute duration - ensuring it will never fall off due to an intermission or downtime, but cannot be chained from one enemy to another.
  • Warbreaker provides no single target benefit, while Skull Banner is of very limited personal value, locking Exploiter behind 4 very low performing talent points. Unless Warbreaker is actually intended to halve the cooldown of Colossus Smash, it feels like that cluster of talents has a poor economy for points.
  • Fatality’s additional damage should probably not be able to crit
    (addressed in recent bluepost, thanks!)
  • Unhinged is uninteresting, one of those talents that’s good when it’s strong and boring when it’s not. I would much rather see something like the datamined Dance of Death extension for Bladestorm (at a reasonable number, say +50%, capping at the original duration).
  • The talent would have a use if Bladestorm’s procced from Signet of Tormented Kings triggered it, since Bladestorm procs are usually cancelled due to their lack of single target value but the two do not currently interact.
  • Sharpened Blades/Blunt Instruments are surprisingly tasteful ways of implementing this kind of customization, given that there’s no significant opportunity cost when changing weapons, though I’m not sure why they need to be associated with weapon types at all. I do worry a bit about the balance, but that’s a tuning issue (for anyone still worried about Skull Banner being “required”, it should be pointed out that this talent is numerically, if not always situationally, stronger than Skull Banner buffing 5 players combined).
  • Exploiter would seem to work against Juggernaut in terms of resource efficiency, despite being a potential prerequisite. This may be a matter of tuning, but it feels like anti-synergy which is at odds with its dependency.

Talent ideas I’d like to see: 3 target Sweeping Strikes, a stronger Cleave replacing Mortal Strike, and some kind of defensive option to match Enraged Regeneration. It could also be nice if Arms had some kind of bigger rage dump to help with high-rage income builds and make Deadly Calm a little stronger, since right now it only adds a few more low-priority Slam or Whirlwind casts to the rotation.

Arms should also use Condemn’s audio/visual for Execute, if not all the time, then at least when Punishment is talented.


Fury to follow.

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Fury Tree Talent Analysis

Fury has some of the best laid out build synergy on any tree I’ve seen thus far, making it very easy for players to understand how to path in order to create an effective build, which is great for ease of use. That said, it also feels a bit one-sided, with far more emphasis on empowering Bloodthirst than its equivalent Raging Blow affecting talents (for clarity, I love each and every one of these talents, so I don’t want them removed, just feel like Raging Blow is far outdone).

SMF vs TG is an area which makes me very apprehensive, as it presents unique issues to Fury Warriors looting both 1h and 2h weapons, yet incapable of using both together. While I understand the intent behind allowing players live their interpretation of the Fury fantasy, and the obvious balancing that requires, I’m extremely worried about the potential for one to become best in one situation, while another is better elsewhere, resulting in Fury Warriors feeling like they need to maintain four weapons across two incompatible sets (e.g. if SMF were noticeably better in ST and TG better in AoE).

The top portion of the tree, referenced in my first post, is saturated with “Improved” versions of baseline spells which are downright required for them to function correctly, specifically Improved Execute, Improved Whirlwind, Improved Rampage, and Improved Enrage (this one may be borderline insofar as “required”, but so high in value that you’ll never not take it). This severely limits early build diversity and actively works against nearby talents which don’t provide such specialization-defining effects. As such, I highly recommend baking those spells into their respective baseline abilities.

  • Warpaint, Invigorating Fury, and Concussive Blows (to a slightly lesser degree) have disproportionately high opportunity cost relative to their function, largely due to the “Improved” problem outlined above.
  • Improved Bloodthirst should be a one point talent in order to free up a point to take Warpaint, Invigorating Fury, or Concussive Blows. As it currently stands, every single point in the talent tree outside of Enraged Regeneration (which is required to reach Rampage) is spent on throughput, creating a disproportionate opportunity cost to take those defensive/utility options (Concussive is sort of throughput, but its main value is the reduced cooldown on Pummel).
  • Rampage is downright essential to playing Fury and feels like it should be much higher in the tree, probably swapped with Enraged Regeneration (in retrospect, this creates a new problem with Invigorating Fury placement, so leaving Rampage where it is may be the lesser of two evils, but Enraged Regen may need to change regardless in order to address the issue of Arms having one less CD than Fury). However, Improved Rampage should be baked into the baseline effect, as Rampage does not properly function without it and players should not be led to a situation where it is skipped. It also makes Frenzy harder to take, and there’s plenty of “improved” talent tax in the tree already.

  • Interestingly, it is possible to create a Rampage-less build which uses Rend and Slam as spenders while relying on Frenzied Flurry for Enrage, and its DPR is surprisingly high, but the gameplay is pretty awful due to endlessly alternating BT and Slam without much room for any of the (several) other buttons. I don’t mind that this potential exists, but I think it should be more obvious that players are generally intended to use Rampage in normal gameplay and a higher position on the tree would lead players toward that conclusion, without completely requiring it for those who wish to experiment.

  • If a radically alternative playstyle were to be encouraged, I would suggest putting Rampage on a split-talent choice alongside a new talent that removes Slam from the global cooldown with a hasted 1.5s cooldown. This would mirror Fury’s much beloved Heroic Strike gameplay from Mists of Pandaria (or Arms’ Focused Rage build in Legion), and actually allow Slam to be used as an effective rage dump without getting in the way of pressing Bloodthirst, Raging Blow, Whirlwind, Execute, or any of the several talented cooldowns (up to 7 across the two trees).

  • Recklessness and its sub-talents face new issues due to the influx of new 45s cooldown talents. Namely, several cooldowns don’t line up naturally anymore, an issue which was previously the subject of major criticism during Legion.

  • Specifically: Reck (1.5m) aligns with Avatar (1.5m) and every other Odyn’s Fury, Ravager, and Thunderous Roar (45s), or every third Siegebreaker (30s), but not Spear of Bastion (1m). Anger Management reduces that to ~1m though, which aligns with Spear and every other Siegebreaker, but no longer aligns with Avatar, Odyn’s Fury, Ravager, or Thunderous Roar. I previously suggested that Mikanikos’ Effusive Anima Accelerator should replace Piercing Verdict as a sub talent for Spear of Bastion, as that would reduce Spear to 45s and compete much better with Elysian Might - this would correct Spear lining up with Reck on a 1.5m or 45s CD, but Anger Management still needs to be addressed.

  • Anger Management could be adjusted to an average 45s cooldown, or just take on a more reliable solution of reducing the cooldown by 50%, since the conversion can fall short due to downtime.

  • Reckless Abandon is a lackluster without frequent Recklessness procs, while the Bloodthirst replacement ability combined with Honed Reflexes results in spamming Bloodthirst every GCD, and the auto-charge on Raging Blow’s replacement has been historically problematic and near universally disliked. It also does very little in AoE, where those override abilities have much lower priority.

  • A talent idea I like is reintroducing the MoP version of Bloodbath, as a modifier to Recklessness, causing a % of damage done during the cooldown to be repeated as additional bleed damage. It would work similar in ST and AoE, while also playing into the new bleed theme of other talents, and could compete very well with an adjusted Anger Management.

  • Focus in Chaos is a fantastic readdition to the game, Fresh Meat is indispensable in Mythic+/open world content, and Cold Steel, Hot Blood is a fan favorite (even if it should not become as strong as it was in BfA). This feedback is mostly focusing on problem areas, but these are all great inclusions that I’m really pleased to have and want to protect at all costs!
  • Frenzied Flurry passively maintains Enrage at a very high uptime on its own, and could probably be lowered to ~30% chance on crit, but should also split its chance to proc between the two ranks. Currently you get most of the value out of the first point, while still pathing lower on the tree thanks to points elsewhere (maybe this is a good thing? I kind of wish multi-point talents didn’t require full points to continue pathing).
  • Annihilator is a separate source of damage which does not actually benefit from Berserker Stance, despite leaning into the concept of a more passive auto-attack build. Some question over whether this talent is intended to change, given the initial bluepost suggesting it replace Raging Blow (though I love transformative and replacement talents that allow players to customize their rotation, so I’m not against this).
  • Wrath and Fury feels strange as a follow-on from Titan’s Grip, but it could be fine if it were more impactful. Currently, the “Raging Blow talent build” is very much outweighed by the Bloodthirst one, so some kind of buff or new effect could be warranted.
  • Pulverize doesn’t play well with other Enrage effects, as Enrage is almost guaranteed to be refreshed early due to the extra 35-70 rage generated from Onslaught, overwriting the 8 second Enrage with a standard 4 second one. I wonder if a better follow-on talent might simply increase the default duration of Enrage to 5 seconds instead, to better compete with Frenzied Flurry?
  • Odyn’s Fury should probably generate Rage, like virtually every other offensive ability in Fury’s toolkit. 15-20 would put it in line with other attacks and the Odyn proc from Patch 7.2 Death and Glory version of the spell. It would also be a good excuse to use the updated visual, since the base version is nearly identical to Whirlwind.
  • Siegebreaker isn’t particularly well beloved by the community, since it’s seen as a slightly reflavored Colossus Smash, but I can live with it. Deafening Crash on the other hand feels underwhelming, and I think a better version could either reduce the cooldown (to help Siegebreaker align with the various new 45s CDs, which you really want it to buff) or simply reintroduce Deathmaker from Shadowlands.
  • Ravager seems like an odd inclusion for Fury, though it makes sense given some players’ dislike of Bladestorm loss of control. There’s some question of whether it’s supposed to trigger Signet of Tormented Kings, though it’s probably better that it doesn’t or Fury would have three ways of triggering it vs only two for Arms. Storm of Steel does feel kind of weak for a last-point talent compared to Depths of Insanity though, and I wonder if it couldn’t also be a minor form of the datamined Dance of Death, capped at a reasonable value.

Talents I’d like to see included: Fan of Longswords in place of Improved Rampage, Bloodbath modifier for Recklessness, ability replacements to majorly modify the rotation, and my most unlikely suggestion: an optional spammy off-GCD alternative to Rampage.

I’ve also been brainstorming the idea of rearranging the Titan’s Grip side of the tree; moving Wrath and Fury where Onslaught is and putting Onslaught where Pulverize is. Titan’s Grip would then be followed by a new talent which increases the default duration of Enrage to 5-6 seconds in order to better compete with the higher Enrage uptime from Frenzied Flurry on the other side of the tree (VISUAL REFERENCE).

The increased Enrage uptime would be more consistent than the current version of Pulverize, which is almost always immediately overwritten by a fresh Enrage, while giving both SMF and TG different flavors of “increased Enrage uptime”.


Bug Listing Addendum

  • Cold Steel, Hot Blood currently generates 8 rage per proc, rather than the intended 1.
  • Annihilator cleaves multiple targets via Whirlwind, but does not consume stacks.
  • Seismic Reverberation causes Revenge to chain-proc itself several thousand times.
  • Fracture causes the primary target’s bleeds to tick out in 1 second rather than 3x faster. Targets cleaved via Sweeping Strikes tick out correctly.
  • Changing specializations between Arms and Fury unlearns Execute until relogging, sometimes causes other talent replacements (Warbreaker) to break.
  • Warbreaker (sometimes?) isn’t reduced by Anger Management, and has a 1.5m cooldown despite being listed at 45s (presumably missing the Rank 2 spell hookup).
  • Recklessness, Rallying Cry, and Sweeping Strikes are also all missing their rank 2s, without any associated talent to add them back.
  • Rend can’t be cleaved with Whirlwind as Fury, which seems inconsistent, though it would undermine Thunder Clap/Blood & Thunder (frankly I think this all needs to be redesigned though, as it doesn’t feel like Rend is really meant to be a part of Fury’s rotation).
  • Fury’s version of Whirlwind has no rage cost even when Improved Whirlwind is not talented, the Improved version simply adds the rage generation and cleave effect.
  • Elysian Might does not currently work at all.
  • Fury Execute is unlearned upon changing specs, until log out. Some class talents (at least Double Time and Bounding Stride) can also break this way.
  • War Machine in the class tree uses the Protection version for every spec, which is probably fine for Fury due to not generating a large percentage of their rage from auto attacks, but is incredibly impactful for Arms. Not sure what the goal is for rage economy, but it may need a spec-specific adjustment.
  • Massacre in the class tree appears to use the Arms version, which does not reduce the cooldown of Fury’s Execute. Not entirely sure how I feel about this alongside all the other changes adding to the rotation, but I do think the every 3rd GCD tempo flowed better (at least before Honed Reflexes threw everything off).

I won’t be covering Prot, since that’s not my forte and there are others better suited to give that feedback, but initial impressions have come across as very positive. My only contribution is that while I don’t believe Skull Banner is strong enough to be a “must bring Arms Warrior” talent, rather than give it to Fury, I feel like if it has to exist at all, it might be good as a Protection-only option. That would give Warrior tanks something akin to Mass Grip/Stampeding Roar/Ring of Peace, while making it far more difficult to stack several banners within in one raid.

Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

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Some general thoughts for Fury here.

Warrior tree:

Berserker stance is currently super weak compared to battle stance. Would never use in its current iteration. Other than that I actually really like the top part of this tree to be honest. A lot of actual choices that can be changed depending on content and playstyle. Leech and move speed seem like the more useless ones here, but could have a place in PvP.

Middle section is where I start to have huge issues. Putting Rend in here feels awful for Fury. Having to maintain a dot is just not the playstyle people want for this spec. Having it on a choice node makes it even worse because for a dps class you ALWAYS take the option that gives you more throughput so it feels completely mandatory. Couple that with the issue of then having to take Thunderclap and Blood and Thunder in order to spread Rend in aoe and you just had to pick up three talents you didn’t want to play because that’s how you deal the most damage in this tree. As Fury (and probably Arms, but I don’t play that), why would I ever want to put Thunderclap on my bar. If you’re forcing me to play Rend already, just let me spread that through Whirlwind instead. It’s already our aoe spreader, why add a second one.
Cacophonous Roar I don’t really care about but nobody is ever taking this. Crushing Force is a worthless node for Fury, and yet it connects from War Machine which you’ll really only pick up from a Single Minded Fury build. I just don’t follow the logic here. I don’t really get Overwhelming Rage either, honestly. You spend rage as you get it in almost every situation, why would I need more? It seems unnecessary, but you have to take it going down that side. Everything else is what it is, but please tell me why every choice node in this section is a choice between throughput or utility. Again, if you’re playing dps there is no choice. You always pick the throughput talent. Nobody is picking Pain and Gain over Rend. Nobody is picking One-handed Weapon Specialization over Dauntless Duelist, etc. If the intention here is that one choice is for Prot and one is for dps, I guess it sort of makes sense but it still FEELS BAD to have false choices.

Final section is mostly fine. Percent stat nodes are pretty boring when you have to take them and feel bad when you can’t take them, but a lot of classes have them and I don’t see this changing. Avatar feels mandatory for every spec here, honestly. It’s such a big increase comparatively to things like Spear of Bastion or Thunderous Roar (WIP, I know). Signet is a whole other conversation, but I’ll throw my two cents in here and say I extremely dislike the random nature of it. Getting Bladestorm in aoe is great. Getting it in single-target is awful. Same the opposite way.

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Fury tree:

I like a lot of the ideas here, but the implementation is ROUGH. Improved Rampage? Improved Enrage? Improved Execute? Improved Whirlwind? These are ALL things Fury essentially HAS TO HAVE in order to play in any kind of fluid playstyle. Archimtiros is right, having these as talents feels absolutely terrible. Alright, I’ve said my piece about those and won’t mention them again.

Top section once again has us choosing between throughput and utility. Why, ever, as a dps player would I take Invigorating Fury over Sudden Death? Never gonna happen. Warpaint over Improved Bloodthirst or Improved Raging Blow? Even in PvP I don’t think you take those, but that’s not really my area. Also, Improved Bloodthirst being a 2-point node and Improved Raging Blow being a 1-point node isn’t great. Just make them both 1-pointers. Also, Rampage needs to be where Enraged Regeneration is. You need this much earlier in the tree to make Fury actually work and feel good to play.

Middle section I ALMOST love with a few exceptions. The playstyle difference between left and right sides is great, in theory. As long as Single-Minded Fury can actually compete with Titan’s Grip this expansion, I’m glad there can be an actual choice. With that in mind, PLEASE make Fury loot spec only loot one-handers then. We can go Arms loot spec to get two-handers but having both in our loot pool is bad and without that there’s no way we can target one-handed weapons exclusively. Outlaw has this where they can equip daggers but in order to get them to drop they have to change loot specs. Just give that to us as well.
As for the abilities themselves, they look good (Improved Rampage and Improved Whirlwind not withstanding since you have to take them in every situation so just make them baseline). I don’t love Frenzy’s restriction and feel that it has a negative impact on a player’s enjoyment. Having to change targets is often essential (bolstering, bursting, enemies that have to be taken down close together). It doesn’t add anything fun or interesting and at the end of the day that’s why we play. Nerf it if you need to, 1% for 5 stacks or something. Just get rid of the restriction. I’d like to see Meat Cleaver in the middle of the tree as well. We all need aoe, make it more accessible.

Bottom section looks great, in all honesty. Needs some tuning to things like Odyn’s Fury (and the subsequent capstone is underwhelming), but overall I like it. I would say that I would switch Odyn’s Fury with Cadence of Fujieda. Having access to both big aoes if you go down the right side but not if you go down the left side seems weird. This way either side gets one semi-capstone aoe and the option of going into Siegebreaker or Cadence. Hack and Slash feels weird as a capstone and never worth it. It was a good conduit in Shadowlands only because of tier and doesn’t make sense here. Likewise Depths of Insanity feels like a heavy investment at two points just for more uptime on Recklessness which has never been that strong of a major cooldown. Maybe at one point for 6 seconds it would be better.

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The Problem

Honed Reflexes is a very good talent, but its benefits aren’t consistent across specializations. It reduces the cooldown of Bloodthirst (4.5s CD), Pummel (15s), Shield Slam (9s), and Overpower (12s) all by 1.5 seconds. So the impact on Bloodthirst is way higher than all of the other spells.

  • This results in Fury casting Bloodthirst every other GCD instead of every third, significantly altering a rotation that’s been in place since Patch 5.0.4. While this sounds better, it actually makes it harder to fit all of the other buttons the new talent trees introduce into the rotation and can even make it a little more bland in some ways. When combined with Reckless Abandon, Bloodthirst’s cooldown is equal to the GCD, allowing it to be literally spammed without stopping.

Worst of all, it’s not a choice - you can’t path down the left-hand side of the class tree without taking it, so even if you wanted to skip this talent for whatever reason, you simply can’t without giving up a whole lot more.

The Suggestion

Make Honed Reflexes reduce the cooldown of Raging Blow instead of Bloodthirst. The talent will still benefit the rotation and reduce “dry spells” from running out of RB charges, without fundamentally altering the baseline rotation, and would be more consistent with reducing Overpower and Shield Slam - since all three abilities have moderate length cooldowns supported by reset mechanics.

I still like the potential for a “Bloodthirst spam” build however, so I would suggest re-adding the reduced cooldown of Bloodthirst to the lower-left of the Fury tree instead, probably a Row 9 or 10 talent replacing Cadence of Fujieda (which is relatively weak, requires time to stack, and easily falls off).

  • An easy way to do this would be to make Bloodbath a standalone talent, permanently overriding Bloodthirst with higher damage and a lower cooldown version. This would allow players to build into a Bloodthirst-centric rotation competing with Hack and Slash, rather than making Bloodthirst spam the new baseline version of Fury.

TL;DR

  • Replace Bloodthirst with Raging Blow in Honed Reflexes.
  • Replace Cadence of Fujieda with Bloodbath (or something simliar that once agan reduces the cooldown of Bloodthirst to a 2-GCD rotation).
  • This makes Raging Blow a little better, Honed Reflexes a little better balanced, and allows players to fully commit to a Bloodthirst-spamming build if they want to.
13 Likes

Just want to chime in and say this is actually huge for me, personally;
I’ve always loved Fury’s high APM and class fantasy, but I’ve been slowing down due to illness over the years, and I am starting to miss GCD’s from time to time. I was debating dropping fury as my main progression spec, and going to something like shadow priest, but these changes actually may allow me to continue to main my main class.

Having multiple playstyles like this baked into a single spec allows people to continue to play their favourite specs, even if the normal playstyle may be inaccessible or not fully viable for them for various reasons.

This does lead to a concern that x and y build may be wholly nonviable for certain types of content, PvP mainly - mostly due to the CR based rewards - but this is a very good step in the right direction for accessibility.

I’m going to be toying around with some of these slower specs to see how they feel in the coming days/ (Along ide my dream leech / self heal fury build for PvP; I have some concerns about how dampening may make this unplayable, but… that’s sort of been the norm until very recently in PvP. Keep us in mind! It’s been great being able to play my main spec in PvP for the first time in forever.)

5 Likes

Having spent more time experimenting and brainstorming, I’ve distilled my previous feedback down to a handful of main changes I’d like see applied to the Fury tree and created a handy visual reference to get a better sense of the changes.

It looks like a lot, but draws from existing spell effects rather than brand new fever dreams. The result is much better balance between the left and right sides of the tree, better alignment of CDs, and more playstyle customization. The reasoning for each change is explained in further detail below.

Swap Warpaint and Sudden Death.

  • Currently, there’s no way to take defensive talents (Warpaint/Invigorating) without giving up throughput, which means they’re probably never going to be taken. This swap would require players to take one defensive choice in order to path deeper down the middle branch.

Reduced Improved Bloodthirst to 1 point.

  • With Improved Bloodthirst now competing with Sudden Death, it’s better that they are both one point talents so that players can’t simply pick the cheaper pathing while still gaining throughput. This point will be made up deeper in the tree by increasing Vicious Contempt to 2 points, which also makes point expenditures between the left and right sides of the tree more equitable.

Increase Vicious Contempt to 2 points.

  • This makes up for the point taken out of Improved Bloodthirst, so the left-hand side of the tree still spends the same number of points as the right. This is also a fairly strong talent in general, so it could afford to have its value broken up a bit.

Replace Cadence of Fujieda with Bloodbath (Shadowlands version).

  • This works in tandem with my suggestion of adjusting Honed Reflexes, allowing players to opt into a high frequency Bloodthirst playstyle, without requiring it for everyone. Losing Cadence is fine - it wasn’t highly valued in Legion or Shadowlands, is too subject to falling off during downtime, and the increased haste doesn’t resonate with the idea of a more simplified/passive playstyle that has been drawing players toward SMF.
  • If Annihilator replaces Raging Blow ala Devastator, then this would also provide natural build synergy - with more Bloodthirst casts to fill the gaps caused by the loss of Raging Blow.

Add 15-20 Rage generation to Odyn’s Fury.

  • Odyn’s Fury is currently the only offensive GCD in Fury’s toolkit that does not generate or spend rage. This would effectively bake in the Odyn proc of Death & Glory from Patch 7.2.

Fan of Longswords in place of Improved Rampage.

  • This provides ST value, so perhaps it needs a noticeable damage nerf (50% damage penalty to Whirlwind?), but it’s a really well liked ability and probably the number 1 community request to come forward out of Shadowlands. Taking Improved Rampage’s spot on the tree would oppose the ST nature of Frenzy, and synergize well with Meat Cleaver, though hard casting Whirlwind would still have a place, since you’re probably not casting Rampage enough to permanently maintain the WW buff outside of Reck/Ravager.

Rotate Wrath & Fury, Onslaught, & Pulverize.

  • Wrath & Fury doesn’t make sense under TG, since SMF also uses Raging Blow (or benefits from the damage bonus via Annihilator), while the current form of Pulverize simply doesn’t work (it always gets overwritten by a fresh 4s Enrage).
  • By rotating the three talents, Wrath and Fury is in a more accessible location to non-TG builds, Onslaught remains a standalone ability, and a new version of Pulverize increasing the default duration of Enrage mirrors the benefits of Frenzied Flurry, allowing TG builds to better compete with SMF ones.

Buff Anger Management to 45 seconds of cooldown reduction.

  • Anger Management currently reduces Recklessness by an average of 30 seconds, resulting in the now 1 minute cooldown not lining up with Avatar, Thunderous Roar, Odyn’s Fury, or Ravager. Slightly buffing the rate of return (or simply making it a static -50% cooldown to work better in encounters with downtime) would fix this issue nicely.

Replace Reckless Abandon with Bloodbath (MoP/Legion version).

  • Reckless Abandon has priority issues, whereby the replacement abilities are still generally lower priority than many of Fury’s other spells, greatly limiting their use in single target and especially in multitarget content when you don’t have very high Reck uptime (such as through the Sepulcher 4p bonus). The auto-charge on Crushing Blow has also been a major source of complaint throughout Shadowlands, and I’m not sure how that would work with Annihilator replacing Raging Blow anyway.
  • Bloodbath (MoP) version as a modifier to Recklessness rather than a standalone cooldown would provide a passive damage boost applicable to ST and AoE, well opposed to Anger Management lowering the cooldown. It would also help play into the bleed theme established by Gushing Wound, Odyn’s Fury, and Bloodborne.

Replace Storm of Steel with Dance of Death.

  • This is kind of wishlisty, but one extra tick of Ravager just feels underwhelming and a bit too of universal - the kind of choice that’s either strong enough you always take it or weak enough that you never do. I feel like Dance would be a more situational talent with strong potential that doesn’t feel like a required boost every time you talent into Ravager, resulting in a little more build variety based on circumstance. Of course, it would need a reasonable cap to keep from becoming a runaway gun.

I really like Fury’s tree overall, especially the duality of Bloodthirst vs Raging Blow, but right now the defining gameplay aspect (Bloodthirst’s reduced cooldown) is in the class tree, so it affects every build rather than a playstyle that’s built into. Adjusting this, while also creating something to compete with Frenzied Flurry would result in a better feeling of creating your own playstyle, rather than just buffing baseline capabilities.

In short, these suggestions would create two basic builds, with a lot of customization between them:

  • A Titan’s Grip build which plays similar to live, using Bloodthirst every third GCD, while relying on Raging Blow resets, Rampage, and Whirlwind to fill globals in between.
  • A Single-Minded Fury build, which drops Raging Blow for Annihilator and uses Bloodthirst more frequently (every other GCD) to compensate.
15 Likes

Wanted to touch on SMF specifically, and what draws me to the spec, and others have mirrored.

There’s a character in the Dungeons and Dragons world named Thibbledorf Pwent. He is a Dwarf covered in razor sharp plate armor with a giant spike on his head, and his entire gimmick is that he runs at people, tackles them, and grinds them to a pulp.

To me, the plate blender, the warrior wood chipper, is what SMF is all about. There is this hulking metal beast in front of you, and his small weapons are able to whirl, and knick, and stab, and slash at you until the overwhelming amount of damage you take is just too much to overcome as you die by a literal thousand cuts.

In the earliest days of fury, my heroic strike key bound to the #2 button had been pressed so many times on my G15 keyboard that the key feedback died. Fury effectively killed the button because I would be furiously mashing it to spend the overwhelming amount of rage that my fast auto attacks were dealing.

I’d like you to consider this playstyle when making adjustments to SMF. I think bleed is absolutely the thing you attach to SMF as one of it’s defining damage sources, and this thematically lines up due to all the small hits and slashes that the target is taking. I think it would be cool to experiment with this bleed effect ramping up as the target’s health drops. This idea works with the old idea that Execute is when Warriors turn it on, and makes sense from a “more holes = more blood” perspective.

I think another thing to play around with is a concept of “glory”. A ramping buff that takes a long time to build. What I mean is instead of something that stacks to 5 on 5 gcds, how about something that stacks every minute, providing a sizeable jump to damage the farther into a fight a SMF Warrior goes. Thematically this makes sense, think a barbarian reveling in the battle and gore and going deeper and deeper into his beserker rage.

I’d like talents to make fury hit faster, apply bleeds faster, and just be this ramping snowball that starts like you’d expect, but ends with you just being this overwhelming grinder of plate and damage.

Thanks for your consideration, I hope this provides some build inspiration that can define SMF away from Titan’s Grip and make the choices a bit more interesting.

3 Likes

Honestly if you want to manufacture SMF to be inherently weaker you should just remove it.

I love SMF and once again I’m shoe horned into TG. Just let me have my visual enjoyment of my class fantasy instead of forcing me to not have it because you refuse to make it competitive out of fears like this.

Why not give us a glyph that makes it so all two handers can only be transmogged into 1 handers and get rid of SMF in this fashion? There is no reason to deliberately engineer someones visual preference to be significantly weaker.

SMF is my class fantasy, my class fantasy shouldnt make me inherently weaker when I’ve been playing this game since vanilla and originally started as a fury warrior using two 1 handed weapons because that was my fantasy.

This line of reasoning has absolutely sucked for far too long especially when I love the idea of being a blood thirsty plate brawler using fists to fight.

IE fist weapons and we got the ability to transmog 1handers into fist weapons but 1handers have not been viable for a very long time. It is a really crummy expectation and one that needs to be looked at more cautiously then “this is what you play if you want to progress, this is what you want to play if you roleplay”

It is also especially messed that there is now an expectation to continue managing two two handed weapons despite two handers costing more in every scenario IE the equipment limit of 5 items for crafted items and two handers counting as 2 while fury maintains no real tactical advantage from using two two handed weapons as our kit is built around that expectation of having extra stamina and str from two handed weapons (IE look at fury warrior DPS in Shadowlands)

Two handers cost more valor, two handers cost more conquest and more honor. Fury is naturally at a disadvantage because of this design.

Edit: Another idea

Why not just make one of the talents leading down the “SMF” path allow you to transmog two handed weapons as 1 handers and ditch this nonsense of engineering a whole visual identity to be inherently weaker?

EDIT:

TLDR: SMF is my identity and I’m tired of it being made inherently weaker and not be competitive because of these scenarios. If you have to make an identity weaker then you should find ways for it to exist without creating the problem. An easy solution is allowing for two handers to be transmoged as 1 handers.

It seems silly to manufacture the bleed specialization to be inherently weaker semi defeating the point of having talents in the first place is it not?

15 Likes

New trees, new feedback! I realize this build mostly changed pathing and so some of my criticisms toward actual spell function will be repeated for the sake of being comprehensive, even though I’m sure there’s already been additional work done to address those areas that we just haven’t seen yet.

General Feedback/Main Points

Overall, the class tree looks good. The first and second tier talents appear to be a little more customizable, and the pathing feels more, opening up some more options rather than forcing you through situational talents. Losing Die by the Sword is probably the biggest hit, but it makes sense - way too impactful for Prot and caused Fury to have an extra defensive over Arms. A few of the performative talents still weight certain paths (getting to War Machine is now a bigger investment than other throughput talents, but it’s also a very strong one), though I feel like I’m in a better position to take the things I want with being forced into as many things I don’t, so I’ll take the tradeoff.

Biggest standout issue to me continues to be the role of Rend, which I really do not want to become a required part of the Fury rotation. In its current position on the tree, it doesn’t currently compete with anything performative, so this becomes entirely a question of rage efficiency/tuning… which needs to be balanced across three specs. Right now, Rend outdamages Rampage at less than half the rage cost, so I’m going to harp on this a lot, but I think there’s a problem here.

Other feedback is more localized to the individual talent and/or its dependencies.

Class Talent Tree Analysis

  • Battle and Berserker Stance still conflict with one another. Having given it more thought, I feel like the best solution is probably to concentrate the damage into one stance and CC reduction effects into the other, thereby giving players the choice of Battle (damage), Defensive (damage reduction), or Berserker (-duration of cc effects and minor movement speed or something).
  • I’m not an expert in PvP, so someone else can weigh in, but I feel like that’s the only way you’re going to make a coherent tripod. Otherwise, DPS will just take the better performing stance and never touch the other.
  • Honed Reflexes is still disproportionately impactful for Fury (maybe to make up for War Machine being much better for Arms?), significantly altering its rotational tempo and should probably be changed to affecting Raging Blow instead.
  • Reducing the CD of Bloodthirst is still a good idea, just feels like something players opt into, rather than a baseline one applied to all builds.
  • I’m not going to die on this hill, since being able to BT more means WW less, it just feels like a big baseline change and creates some priority conflicts with Raging Blow.
  • Rend still feels weird being shoehorned into Fury’s kit, especially alongside the severe reduction of filler GCDs in the rotation caused by using Bloodthirst more. Fury doesn’t need the extra bloat, but the DPR is high enough it’ll probably get used, which means bloating even further by adding Thunderclap as well. If Fury isn’t intended to use Rend/TC/B&T, it just means Arms/Prot are spending several extra points on damage in the class tree that Fury can take as defense/utility.
  • Feels like Rend should probably be located in the Arms/Prot spec trees, since it will likely need spec-specific tuning due to different rage economies anyway, or at best directly competing with another offensive talent more viable for Fury (Frothing Berserker?).
  • Crushing Force does nothing for Fury, resulting in no opportunity cost when taking Concussive Blows instead, while Arms and Prot give up a significant damage boost.
  • Cacophonous Roar has better pathing now, but still feels very underwhelming outside of some PvP situations. Would recommend replacing with or adding some form of Menace (at least the cower in place effect) for a little more PvE functionality.
  • Dual-Wield Specialization feels like it should be replaced by One-Handed Specialization, otherwise there’s serious consideration for Fury to double up (1H+DW for SMF or 2H+DW for TG).
  • There’s also still concern that these talents push their respective builds into the left or right sides of the tree (assuming that isn’t intended), so reallocating them to the current position of 1H/Frothing would be more equitable, but that would also throw off the point-economy of the third tier, so I’m not sure what the best solution is here.
  • Spear of Bastion doesn’t align with other Warrior cooldowns, which are all on a 45/90s tempo. Recommend replacing Piercing Verdict with Effusive Anima Accelerator to trade extra rage generation for CDR, while competing much better with Elysian Might (resulting in the choice of better one-time burst or better recurring alignment of CDs).
  • Signet of Tormented Kings is still subject to incredible RNG swings that feel more frustrating than rewarding. Still a strong candidate for replacement, but making the buff consistently alternate between the two cooldowns each spec is capable of proccing it with could salvage the ability.
  • For example, Recklessness would always proc Avatar and Avatar would always proc Recklessness for Fury. Likewise, Bladestorm would always proc Avatar and Avatar would always proc Bladestorm for Arms. This turns a frustrating crapshoot into a tactical tool and probably even makes it easier to balance those procs for each spec.
  • Shockwave has become slightly more accessible due to the reduction of 2H and DW specs to 1 point talents, which isn’t a bad thing. It’s a very strong effect, so it probably shouldn’t be free, but it won’t result in quite as much lost throughput now.

Again my biggest issue is Rend, and I’m not sure the best solution assuming Fury isn’t intended to use it, I feel like it would be best served going into a required part of the Arms and Prot spec trees, replacing a filler talent like Improved Overpower (+10% damage). This completely removes the problem of making its way into the Fury rotation.


Current bugs:

  • Rend cannot be cleaved by Fury’s Whirlwind (probably intended because of Blood & Thunder, but is inconsistent with other spells).
  • Massacre’s increased health % doesn’t work for Fury, due to using the Arms version of the spell for all specializations.
  • Spear of Bastion can’t be used outside of Shadowlands.
11 Likes

Arms Talent Tree Analysis

The new Arms layout is a serious glow up, giving me the same feeling when I saw the original version of Fury’s - everything flows very nicely, with easily identifiable synergy, and a lot of options for alternate pathing, whereas the previous version felt a little helter-skelter with its talent placement. I’m especially happy with the various rank 2 spells being merged into their baseline abilities, so kudos for that!

However, the first tier of the tree has a serious issue whereby it requires 8 out of 10 potential points, most of which are throughput - this results in a situation where Fueled by Violence will simply never be taken, due to the lack of point economy - you can progress into the second tier without it, and every other talent on the tree provides increased throughput, meaning even if you have a point left over, it will never go into this one over an offensive option like Skull Banner.

A simple way to address this is to pair down the first tier slightly, either by either removing one of the filler “Improved” talents like Improved Mortal Strike or simply making Mortal Strike a free talent similar to Battle Stance, so that 7 throughput points are still used to proceed down into the three main branches, leaving the final required point as a choice between two defensive options - either Fueled by Violence or a comparable defensive talent where Bloodsurge is now. Bloodsurge can then be moved deeper into the tree (probably replacing Deadly Calm, which is currently a very uncompetitive talent).

  • I really like the idea of talenting into Fury’s effects, enhancing Die by the Sword with a version of Invigorating Fury to oppose Fueled by Violence, creating the choice of sustained healing over time or a single burst heal tied to Die by the Sword’s cooldown. Instead of increased duration though, I might go with something like 25% instant heal + 25% over the duration of DbtS.
  • Improved Overpower has no mechanical function, making it a good candidate to replace with Rend to address issues within the class tree. It could also take the place of Improved Mortal Strike on the right, but I liked the theme of keeping all the bleed talents on the left side of the tree.
  • Deadly Calm could be replaced with Bloodsurge to free up room for a defensive choice in the top tier, while maintaining the theme of a bleed focus on the left-hand side of the tree. While Deadly Calm is a long-time Warrior ability, it’s an extraordinarily seldom used one, not interacting with Anger Management or Test of Might, losing its increased rage cap to the class tree, and just not necessary to fill GCDs thanks to increased rage generation and Tactician procs in Dragonflight.
  • Fracture increasing tick rate while decreasing duration feels like it could cause you to lose as much damage as you gain through having to reapply Rend more often, and is also subject to being overwritten by fresh Deep Wounds. I’m curious to evaluate its performance further, but I wonder if there’s a version of it that increases the tick rate without also reducing the duration.
  • Exploit the Weakness still appears to be adding to the proc chance of Tactician directly, rather than multiplying the amount of rage spent as tooltip implies it should. I have to imagine this is unintended, since it results in a typical 30 rage ability having a 90% chance to trigger Tactician.
  • Fervor of Battle is in a better position now, but still conflicts with Storm of Swords, so I feel like it would be better if it traded places with Barbaric Training so that both Whirlwind-transforming talents couldn’t be taken together.
  • Improved Sweeping Strikes still feels like it doesn’t compete with Collateral Damage, particularly when combined with Storm of Swords, so I’d still like to revisit the idea of it increasing the target count from 2 → 3 instead of increasing duration.
  • Cleave still feels like it suffers from rotational bloat, especially with how easy it is to apply Deep Wounds via Warbreaker, Sweeping Strikes Mortal Strike, and Bladestorm.
  • Unhinged doesn’t trigger off of Signet procced Bladestorms, and it feels like allowing this would be the most natural way of encouraging players not to automatically cancel Bladestorm procs in single target situations.
  • Sharpened Blades/Blunt Instruments are both fantastic talents, but still get a lot of community criticism over being tied to specific weapon types. I’m sure the point is enforced variety, but players aren’t super keen on it.

Current Bugs:

  • Die by the Sword doesn’t currently cost a talent point or contribute to progressing down the tree.
  • Storm of Swords/Barbaric Training requires 20 points to unlock, despite being located in the second talent tier (requiring only 8 points).
  • Anger Management is not reducing the cooldown of Colossus Smash or Warbreaker.
  • Warbreaker still seems to requires a direct target in melee range.
9 Likes

Fury Talent Tree Analysis

This one is a doozy.

Whereas the new Arms tree was streamlined in a way very similar to the previous Fury tree, this new Fury tree appears to have become less elegant. There are some fantastic new and returning talents, but the overall layout feels messy, with a number of irreconcilable talent conflicts between Annihilator and several talents that depend on actually casting Raging Blow.

Another big issue is the alternative pathing created by jumping from Frenzy to Fresh Meat to Recklessness - skipping Enraged Regeneration in order to pick up more damage increasing talents, which really feels like it’s setting players up for failure. I would consider the primary defensive cooldown to be a core part of the toolkit, and so it should probably be located among required pathing in the top section of the talent tree.

  • Rampage moving up is great, and baking in the Improved Rampage effect is even better. I’m really happy about this and think it’s a good move to guide players toward the intent of using the ability as the primary way of spending rage. However, Fury now mirrors Arms in having an issue of no room to ever take Warpaint due to the over abundance of throughput talents in the first section of the tree - there are currently 8 required throughpoint nodes, with Sudden Death left over, so even if you had an extra point, it wouldn’t go into Warpaint.
  • Single-Minded Fury and Titan’s Grip feels like they were consolidated to ensure players choose one of these very supremely important talents, which is a good move, but also results in increased potential for conflict throughout the rest of the tree.

  • The problem we have now is that it’s now easier to talent Titan’s Grip alongside Annihilator/Frenzied Flurry (in fact, I even played this non-functional “TG Annihilator” build for a good hour on the PTR before realizing my mistake!). Annihilator also completely devalues Hack & Slash, Slaughtering Strikes, and Raging Armaments, while partially devaluing Cruelty and Reckless Abandon, which seems like a lot of conflict.

  • In a world where you can freely change spec at more or less any time, it doesn’t really matter where the SMF/TG nodes are, only that they’re accessible without blocking off build diversity. The previous version of the tree felt like it was better about leading you down logical build paths, while the new tree has these incompatible talents scattered everywhere, leaving you more prone to making really bad build mistakes.

  • Improved Raging Blow, Raging Armaments, Hack & Slash, and Slaughtering Strikes are all completely non-functional when talenting into Annihilator - the talents literally don’t do anything if you can’t cast Raging Blow, but it’s entirely possible to talent them together anyway. Cruelty and Reckless Abandon still provide some benefit, but also lose much of their value.
  • Raging Armaments and Hack & Slash in particular are nice to have effects for builds that are casting Raging Blow, but actually have fairly low performative value. Hack & Slash is only has about half chance to reset as on live, so even if you were only casting Bloodthirst every 3rd GCD, you’d probably end up running out of Raging Blow charges. In short, most of these talents could use buffs to encourage more Raging Blow use over Bloodthirst or else you might as well skip some of them and take other damage increase nodes instead.
  • Enraged Regeneration feels like it should have remained in SMF/TG’s spot, since the extra pathing makes it very possible to skip the talent entirely - leapfrogging from SMF/TG to Frenzy, Fresh Meat, and back to Recklessness. Given the choice between throughput and defensive value, this situation is not at all unlikely and sets players up for failure.
  • I’d suggest switching the position of Enraged Regeneration with SMF/TG, thereby forcing players to path through the defensive, though I’m not sure I like this branching diamond regardless - maybe if more AoE talents were located there instead, it would make more sense to situationally path around them?
  • Invigorating Fury competing with Hack & Slash also feels weird. While most builds will probably skip this cluster entirely (see previous point), it’s bad enough to put an offensive talent up against a defensive one, but even worse when one of them provides no value to one of the two major builds.
  • I suggest that Invigorating Fury swap positions with Sudden Death, forcing a choice between it or Warpaint as the “eighth point” required to move out of the first talent tier. Along with that, I also like the idea of the talent inheriting the other spec’s defenses from my Arms’ post and therefore suggest changing Invigorating Fury to cause Enraged Regeneration to provide 100% parry for its duration - resulting in the choice of an on-demand pseudo-immunity or near-constant damage reduction.
  • Pulverize continues to be flawed in that the longer duration Enrage is very quickly overwritten by a fresh 4 second one. I still think this would be a good talent to decouple from Onslaught and change into a default rage generation, Enrage duration increase, or other bonus specifically for TG builds to better compete with the benefits of Frenzied Flurry, though that may be a bit more difficult now due to the new arrangement of the tree.
  • Improved Whirlwind is in a weird spot on the tree where it can be easily skipped, despite seemingly being a required part of the core rotation. I like the implementation of Meat Cleaver, but I feel like either this talent should either be along required pathing in the top section of the tree (probably instead of Improved Bloodthirst, which is just tuning in the form of a talent) or baked in and replaced with something more strictly designed toward AoE.
  • Could swap positions with Meat Cleaver and turn this into Fan of Longswords, because I really want to see that effect make it into the tree somewhere! It would at least be walled off by two points of not entirely required AoE talents, so not every single build would take it.
  • Frenzied Flurry buff seemed strange at first glance, but now that Annihilator is correctly replacing Raging Blow, I can see the intent in keeping Enrage going, especially if Rend is worked into the rotation and taking rage away from Rampage. I will say it kind of undermines Fresh Meat though, which can no longer pathed around without also giving up CSHB.
  • Cold Steel, Hot Blood now requires pathing through Fresh Meat, a downgrade to the previous tree allowing single target specific builds to skip the mostly multi-target focused one by pathing directly from Frenzy. 4 rage per proc also feels like the main draw here, since the DoT damage is really low at the moment - I might like to see that shifted around a bit.
  • With the high passive enrage uptime from Frenzied Flurry, Fresh Meat is moderately devalued, making it a more situational talent that can’t really be taken situationally, since most builds feel like they’ll go for CSHB.
  • Cadence of Fujieda and Sidearm now feel further sidelined, since Annihilator was a bigger draw to this pathing. Sidearm can probably stay, but I still think this could be a good place to situate something like a standalone version of Bloodbath (Shadowlands version) from Reckless Abandon - this would also have natural build synergy with Annihilator and still combine well with Sidearm to create that “auto attack build” which focuses on increased Bloodthirst use to compensate for the lack of Raging Blow.
  • Shout out to DanWar for suggesting Cadence replace or be merged into one talent with Frenzy. Personally though, I like Frenzy more because it’s situational - it feels like an obvious pick in ST and I don’t feel bad dropping it in a multitarget build, whereas there are already a lot of talents that feel like you want them in every situation.
  • Odyn’s Fury continues to be the only offensive ability in Fury’s toolkit that doens’t generate or consume Rage, so it should generate 15-20 rage commensurate with similar cooldowns.
  • Bloodborne doesn’t work with Rend, which is another strong reason to remove the possibility of Fury integrating it into their rotation (please I’m begging you, Fury does not need a maintenance debuff or to start weaving Thunder Clap either - at least give it some competitive opportunity cost).
  • Anger Management and Reckless Abandon continue to be problematic, even more so now that Annihilator properly replaces Raging Blow, and so I want to repeat my previous suggestions.
  • Anger Management should be buffed to provide an average of 45s CDR in order to align Recklessness with every other cooldown or just made a passive -50% reduction.
  • Reckless Abandon’s Crushing Blow is incompatible with Annihilator (and generally disliked regardless), while Bloodthirt’s replacement reduces the rotation down to one button, so I again think a form of Bloodbath (MoP/Legion version) would be a thematically appropriate replacement which would lean into the bleed theme and provide better competition with Anger Management.
  • Unbridled Ferocity is a fantastic addition to the tree and a great capstone talent which benefits both SMF and TG builds. Love everything about this. It would be nice to see a little bit of synergy with Depths of Insanity at a hefty reduction, but I’m not going to lose sleep over it.
  • The inclusion of Skull Banner makes Fury more “fair” with Arms, but I’m not expecting it to get much use, given the very competitive alternatives. With the choice nominally between Banner, Siegebreaker, or Odyn’s Fury, I’m completely ok with telling my Mages to shove it. This sounds critical, but I’m completely fine with the current placement - provided Banner remain a mediocre cooldown rather than something that becomes “required” for all Warriors to take, people who want it can use it, while those who don’t can ignore it.

Hopefully that helps explain the depths of incompatibility within this new tree. While I really like the inclusion of Unbridled Ferocity, Raging Armaments (conceptually anyway), and even Skull Banner, the previous tree kind of felt better in terms of pathing and build creation.

Assuming you’re cognizant enough to avoid taking incompatible talents, we now have two general builds, both of which skip Enraged Regeneration and circumvent most of the middle branch (AoE variants for both only change around 6 points):

  • An Annihilator build, which passively maintains Enrage and is so weighted to the left that it probably isn’t even spending a full 10 points in the third section of the talent tree.
  • A Raging Blow build, which is mechanically similar, though with far less Enrage uptime and the added complication of fitting Raging Blow into the rotation while still keeping Bloodthirst on cooldown every other GCD.

This results in too much power in the left side of the tree relative to the right, or in BT relative to RB depending on how you want to look at it. It’s also too easy to path around defensive talents for extra throughput, and there are just too many incompatible talents to stumble into and end up getting no value out of.

Not sure what the best solution is, but I think something closer to the previous layout with SMF/TG smartly walling off incompatible talents and leading players into their associated gameplay talents would work better. If that design could be combined with some of these new talents, I think it could fix things up nicely.

Current Bugs:

  • Whirlwind does not have a rage cost when Improved Whirlwind is not talented.
  • Rend cannot be cleaved with Whirlwind (probably intended because of Blood & Thunder, but is inconsistent with other abilities).
  • Hack & Slash requires 20 talent points instead of 8.
  • Depths of Insanity cannot be allocated when Frenzied Flurry is talented.
  • Slaughtering Strikes, Raging Armaments, and Skull Banner do not spend talent points or contribute to progressing deeper into the tree.
  • Annihilator hits multiple targets while the Whirlwind buff is active, without consuming charges. It also seems to have an absolutely bonkers cleave range.
23 Likes

Please include a glyph or something to turn Reckless Abandon’s charge off. While it’s loads of fun in PvP, it’s probably one of the more infuriating abilities in PvE.

3 Likes

Man I am really not on board with Titan’s Grip build being the favorite for competitive damage for some reason. Double two handers is a gimmick aesthetic, I’m just not gonna play the spec at all if my favorite builds are eternally sidelined. Devs should at least try to balance different builds together, sheesh. Or is this some sort of actually-not-imbalance deal because the added cost of obtaining 2H weapons balances it out? That would be fair, but that’s not what was said. What was said is that SMF would definitely be worse than Titan’s Grip. Seems really lame.

15 Likes

Trying out Fury: I don’t like annihilator, and I definitely don’t like that it gates access to Frenzied Flurry. When I saw this talent I thought it was maybe to simplify or reduce the APM of an auto-attack oriented build. It does technically simplify, but more in a bad way, as raging blow is really not a problem ability. In fact that ability feels nice: you get 2 charges with a talent, a short but not-too-short cooldown, and it deals good damage.

Whirlwind is the problem ability for the pacing of more low key builds, because it’s a totally free ability that fills up any dead GCD. That means there is no break in the rotation… at all… ever. I like pressing buttons as much as the next guy, but that’s just too much - especially for fights that last several minutes or dungeons that last multiple dozens of minutes.

So the annihilator rotation is bloodthirst, whirlwind, repeat, forever, with the occasional mixup of an execute proc or rampage. It’s not a relaxing build, and whirlwind doesn’t really feel like a good button to press in single target.

I’m also getting way less rage than in the previous build for some reason - I guess because of losing raging blow. Yeah this isn’t fun at all. :frowning:

1 Like

That, plus reducing War Machine from 50%->25% (very much needed, and still really strong), while Cold Steel, Hot Blood was mistakenly generating 8 rage every proc and has since been reduced to 4 (which is still high, allowing BT crits to match the rage from RB). On the bright side you have effectively 100% enrage uptime without pressing Rampage at all, so… :dracthyr_shrug:

There’ve been several comments from players celebrating Annihilator as a “passive” rotation, which is kind of mistaken. It doesn’t lower APM, it just simplifies the playstyle by pairing down a button - it’s basically Devastator for Fury. This is still a desirable playstyle for some people, but there does not appear to be any intent to make Fury anything less than a fast paced and spammy playstyle, as that is the core theme of the specialization and is probably unlikely to change.

Removing Whirlwind instead of Raging Blow would be difficult, since that would also remove your ability to cleave - that could be designed around, but it would not be a minor change. If you do want to slow down the rotation regardless of the performative impact though, you could just skip talenting Improved Enrage (15% haste during Enrage, which is functionally always) - Improved Raging Blow is a nonfunctional talent with Annihilator anyway.

4 Likes

Well regardless of developer intent, my feedback here is still that the prior, bugged rotation rage values were a lot more fun to play. And we don’t have a damage meter so it’s not just a numbers or power level thing - Rampage is a fun button to press with a good animation and sound, and the prior build’s pacing felt more satisfying (using a primarily left-side talent build still).

I also realize I haven’t adequately explained why I like rotations that have a slight GCD break - again this is feedback, I don’t have any specific suggestions on changing whirlwind or whatever, don’t care about solutions. As an experienced player, when I play a WoW melee class I’m usually looking at a bevy of resources - in the form of cooldowns, class resources like rage or runes, etc - and needing to spend down those resources in a timely manner and in the right order to do good damage. If my rotation involves having around 5 GCDs to spend at a time, and about 6 GCDs worth of time to complete that spending, that creates both a point of tension and, importantly, release in the combat flow. Being able to complete the resource burndown is a great feeling of accomplishment: the tension of having to spend quickly is released, and I get a moment to feel good about what I’ve done before moving on to the next block of resources to spend down. Without a break in the GCD spamming, that moment of satisfaction never comes. There’s never an actual end point, or ebb and flow. Instead the experience is all flat, all tension. Just constantly feeling behind, all the time, is very punishing.

Again I have no real suggestions here. This is universal to my experience playing WoW melee classes and, I had to think about this a while to understand how I actually experience the game, but I hope being able to relay my experience is in some way helpful to the devs.

5 Likes

To be honest, Reckless Abandon needs to go entirely. Like a lot of talents this build, the Crushing Blow aspect is completely non-functional when talenting Annihilator and dropping the rotation down to spamming Bloodthirst every GCD (when you don’t have something better to press) isn’t particularly engaging either.

Even if you’re not running Annihilator though, you need pretty high uptime on Reck to actually make use of those overrides, because other abilities such as Rampage, Execute, Siegebreaker, Onslaught, Odyn’s Fury, Ravager, Spear, or perhaps Thunderous Roar are all things you’ll typically want to use during your cooldown buff window - so they usually take priority.

This is why Fury only seriously swapped to Reckless Abandon in Sepulcher, once the current 4p tier bonus was acquired, which has much higher uptime than Dragonflight’s Unbridled Ferocity (which doesn’t even trigger Reckless Abandon at the moment anyway). You just don’t have a whole lot of time inside the normal duration of Recklessness to make use of those relatively low priority override abilities.

This is also further compounded by the fact that if Signet comes forward, Anger Management gains an advantage due to more frequently triggering other cooldowns as well.

5 Likes

Hello, Warriors. Here are some notes from the class developers.

The arrangement of Warrior talents in the Alpha at this time is a partial implementation towards opening up more options for each specialization. We expect to have the full version of this in the next Alpha build, and once it’s live, we’d love to hear whether you prefer the wider choices or a more streamlined tree like we had in the initial version of the revamped Warrior class tree.

Arms

  • We’re happily getting close to the finish with the Arms talent tree. There’s still work to do on individual talents (including a few additions) rather than the tree structure as a whole.

Fury

  • Currently the Fury tree is undergoing some iteration and what you’re seeing in the Alpha today, unfortunately, has some key missing placements, connections, and a number of requirements that are not working correctly.
  • We’ll also likely make Titan’s grip baseline, as there’s no specific benefits (outside of weapon stats) for picking up this talent in comparison to others in the tree.

Protection

  • We’ve been recently focused on the overall class, as we’ve been pleased with Protection and feedback that this talent tree is mostly in a good place. We’ll be looking more at Protection once the other trees are up to the same standard.
20 Likes