FEEDBACK: Warrior Class Changes

Updated August 19

Protection Warriors will see a few updates in this week’s build. First, a number of talents have been moved around in the tree. After seeing how the layout is playing on Beta, and reading your feedback, we think this updated tree will create more competitive choices in multiple rows.

15 – War Machine, Punish, Devastator
25 – Unchanged
30 – Best Served Cold, Booming Voice , Dragon Roar
35 – Unchanged
40 – Never Surrender, Indomitable, Impending Victory
45 – Into the Fray, Unstoppable Force, Ravager
50 – Anger Management, Heavy Repercussions, Bolster

Thunder Clap and Revenge will now begin dealing reduced damage if they strike more than 5 targets, instead of when they strike more than 1 target. The initial changes to these abilities’ damage has had an outsized effect on threat gameplay for Protection, particularly in dungeons. These changes should make the task of gaining threat on a standard pack of enemies feel closer to the live game, while still making fighting large groups of enemies more of a challenge.

There are two accompanying, smaller tuning changes as well. Tuning is ongoing, but these changes were worked in alongside with the talent rearrangement.

  • Devastate’s damage increased by 50%.
  • Dragon Roar generates 20 Rage for Protection (was 10 Rage). It still generates 10 Rage for Fury.

Thanks for your continued playtesting and feedback!


June 17

Hello to all of the seasoned soldiers, raging barbarians, and ironclad commanders of Azeroth! The newest Shadowlands Alpha build has a number of changes for Warriors, primarily focused on talents. We’re happy with the playstyle of each spec, and our philosophy for core abilities is generally “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. That said, there are a number of talents in each tree that could use some love. Some were underutilized in Battle for Azeroth (eg., Collateral Damage for Arms, and Inner Rage for Fury) and haven’t seen changes yet, or their first set of changes in Shadowlands haven’t quite hit the mark (Frothing Berserker for Fury). We’re looking forward to hearing your thoughts and feedback on the new and updated talents!

We’d like to call out that Arms’ Mastery and Deep Wounds have been redesigned. We heard your feedback that Deep Wounds’ overwhelming contribution to the damage breakdown felt unrewarding, and we agree. The new design will be a much smaller proportion of Arms’ direct damage, and should reward skillful target selection more than the previous version.

Single-Minded Fury has returned to Fury Warriors, with an updated design. This means that Fury Warriors can now receive one-handed weapons as item drops, though that may not be implemented in this build.

For Protection, a major topic of discussion has been the status of the Unstoppable Force build that exists in Battle for Azeroth. There are a lot of individual effects contributing to the build: talents, Azerite Traits, and Essences. The core components, however, are the Anger Management and Unstoppable Force talents, which can still be taken together in Shadowlands. In Battle for Azeroth, the multiplicative nature of the other effects is so powerful that Unstoppable Force overshadows any other setup or playstyle. We’d like to leave Protection in a more conservative position until the rest of their potential toolkit is known - additional Rage generation, cooldown reduction, etc. from Conduits and/or Legendaries may quickly have an outsized impact on the strength of Unstoppable Force. We hear your feedback that the playstyle is extremely fun! The intention isn’t to remove it completely, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how things shape up in the next few months in order to revisit and tweak things before the game launches. Thank you for your patience and ongoing feedback - it’s extremely valuable to us.

Arms Warrior

  • Mastery: Deep Wounds has been redesigned. Now, Mortal Strike and Bladestorm inflict Deep Wounds, dealing Bleed damage over 12 seconds and increasing the damage the enemy takes from you.*

    • Developers’ notes: Removing Execute as a Deep Wounds applicator helps keep Mortal Strike relevant sub-20% health, without relying entirely on its damage-per-Rage in comparison to Execute.
  • Mastery rating will increase the “damage the enemy takes from you” effect, rather than Deep Wounds’ damage.

    • Developers’ notes: We feel it is important for Arms to have a Bleed in their core kit, but Deep Wounds’ direct contribution to damage dealt was overwhelming.
  • Execute damage increased by 20%.

  • Mortal Strike damage reduced by 5%.

  • Ravager has been redesigned to give it more identity, and differentiation from Bladestorm. Ravager again replaces Bladestorm when talented, and inflicts Deep Wounds (reverting previous Shadowlands changes). Cooldown reduced to 45 seconds, and duration increased to 12 seconds (still reduced by Haste). Ravager now chases nearby enemies.

  • Collateral Damage has been redesigned: When Sweeping Strikes ends, your next Whirlwind deals 25% increased damage for each ability used during Sweeping Strikes that damaged a second target.

    • Developers’ notes: Collateral Damage’s previous design turned out to be too niche. We want to support Sweeping Strikes in talents, and this new version should be more broadly applicable outside of strictly 2-target situations.
  • Cleave has been redesigned: Replaces Sweeping Strikes. 20 Rage. 6 second cooldown. Strikes up to 5 enemies in front of you for Physical damage, inflicting Deep Wounds. Cleave will consume your Overpower effect to deal increased damage.

    • Developers’ notes: Cleave clashed with Sweeping Strikes at lower target counts, making it feel useful primarily while SS is not active. By having it replace Sweeping Strikes when talented, Cleave can stand on its own and more dramatically affect Arms’ AoE gameplay.

Fury Warrior

  • Single-Minded Fury is back. Learned at level 14 alongside Titan’s Grip, Fury Warriors can once again use their abilities while dual-wielding one-handed weapons. While dual-wielding a pair of one-handed weapons, your damage done is increased by 8% and your movement speed is increased by 5%.
  • Recklessness now generates 40 Rage.
  • The following talents have been removed: Inner Rage, Furious Slash, Fervor of Battle, and Wrecking Ball.
  • Frenzy is a new talent: Rampage increases your Haste by 3% for 12 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. This effect is reset if you Rampage a different primary target.
  • Seethe is a new talent: Bloodthirst generates 2 more Rage, or 4 more Rage when it critically strikes your primary target.
  • Cruelty is a new talent: While Enraged, Raging Blow deals 20% more damage and has a 30% chance to instantly reset its own cooldown.
  • Frothing Berserker updated: Rampage has a 20% chance to immediately refund 40 Rage.
  • Meat Cleaver is back: Whirlwind deals 30% more damage and now affects your next 4 single-target melee attacks, instead of the next 2.
  • Onslaught now generates 15 Rage (was 10).
  • Dragon Roar cooldown reduced to 30 seconds (was 35 seconds). No longer reduces enemy movement speed. Now critically strikes for 3 times normal damage.
  • Bladestorm damage increased by 20% (Fury only).
  • Reckless Abandon updated: Recklessness generates 20 more Rage and greatly empowers Bloodthirst and Raging Blow. Bloodthirst becomes Bloodbath, dealing 100% more damage on a 3 second cooldown. Raging Blow becomes Crushing Blow, dealing 100% more damage and charging you to your target within 10 yards.
    • Developers’ notes: We’d love to hear your thoughts on how it feels using empowered Bloodthirst and Raging Blow.

Protection Warrior

  • Ravager has been updated to match the changes made to Arms’ version of the ability: 45 second cooldown, lasts 12 seconds (compressed by Haste), deals damage every 2 seconds, chases nearby enemies, and generates 10 Rage each time it deals damage.
  • Dragon Roar has been updated to match the changes made to Fury’s version of the ability: 30 second cooldown, no longer reduces enemy movement speed, critically strikes for 3 times normal damage.
  • Crackling Thunder now also increases the movement speed reduction of Thunder Clap by 10%.
  • Ignore Pain now caps at 2x value (was a cap of 1.3x value).

April 16

  • (Protection) Execute now also has a chance to reset the cooldown of Shield Slam.

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In this thread, we’re discussing Warrior class changes coming in World of Warcraft: Shadowlands.

Read more about initial class changes in the World of Warcraft blog.

This initial post will be updated periodically throughout the Shadowlands test. Please check back here for information about further updates to this class as they are made.

Thank you for your testing and feedback!

22 Likes

Early Shadowlands Warrior Thoughts

General warrior
Love the return of Spell Reflect and Intervene for all specializations in PvE, I’ve been saying we needed these back for years now. Stances would be great, even if just the current iteration of the live Defensive Stance talent for Arms made baseline. It was our special core mechanic in the old days, encourages more skilled gameplay and it’s near mandatory in PvP now anyways.

Any sort of talent for a Charge stun would feel great, it felt really core to the warrior class to charge to something and stop a spell, it feels a little bit neutered compared to Death Grip that still stops a cast in dungeons, especially in a post charge-speed reduction (legion change) world where Shimmer exists in pvp. You almost just can’t reach a target in time to stop anything.

Execute looks like it actually executes again. Execute felt terrible in Legion / BFA despite the execute phase rotations becoming more engaging. It always felt like a warrior role to fill and our reliance on victory rush for self healing makes this buff a very welcome one in group scenarios. Victory Rush still seems to be at a 20% heal, I would love to see this buffed again as many other classes seem to benefit from killing blows lately in a similar functionality.

Shattering Throw seems to have best of MoP and WoD benefits, no raid wide damage increase shenanigans but still baseline and serving the a niche gameplay role that always gave it a unique identity and purpose. Heroic Throw actually throwing our weapon again instead of a random Axe would be sick, I haven’t met a person that doesn’t miss that animation.

Mad props on the across the board baseline uses of Slam Execute Shield Slam Shield Block Spell Reflect and Ignore pain. Can’t wait to have Challenging Shout back.

Arms
The new Dreadnaught is great, it’s awesome to see Seismic Wave carry on through to the next expansion and bring the talent back into use. The new Cleave rendition feels a lot more engaging, exciting, and more capable of beating out Warbreaker in sustained 3+ target situations. Arms appears to be lacking the Piercing Howl mentioned in the blog.

I would love to see some sort of continuation of Striking the Anvil, it made a proc feel even better. Deadly Calm off of the global CD feels reasonable and the 1 minute CD not quite lining up with other abilities leaves room for thought and adjustment. Ravager feels almost out of place but I don’t know where else it could go.

Fury

No Single Minded fury return breaks my heart a little bit a lot.
I’m sad to see the healing aspect of Fresh Meat gone, that was the only situation where it was useful to me personally, but the enrage quality of life potential seems high.The lvl 40 row talents all seem interesting, and I’m a big fan of Onslaught so far. I like that the Frothing Berserker change seems to reward higher skilled play without locking in rampage uses when it’d be better not to grab the buff.
Wrecking Ball seems cool and feels exciting but I’m uncertain how much it can help with Fury’s biggest weakness atm; damaging target numbers above 5.

Prot
I can’t express enough how happy I am to see Revenge deal more damage than Thunderclap. With the rage generation still tied to Thunder Clap it looks like I’ll be stomping the ground like a lunatic throwing a tantrum through another expansion, but at least there will be a more rewarding / compelling choice between dealing damage and staying alive.
Nerfs to Anger Management might be double dipping and overkill imo. I think with the nerf to Thunder Clap damage(aka room to rebuff Unstoppable Force a little) and removal of Deafening Crash you could safely still include Demoshout CD reduction without it outshining the other lvl 45 talents. With buffs to Indomitable and Never Surrender I don’t think the Bolster synergy will Last Stand tied to it would be bad anymore either. Ravager will probably out perform defensively CD and offensively otherwise, outside of magic damage situations.

Thanks for reading my wall<3

35 Likes

General

Love that intervene, spell reflect and shattering throw have returned. Not as high on the shield abilities returning. Having a shield doesn’t really feel like the flavorful thing that unified the warrior as a class. On top of that actually swapping to shields feels clunky for very little reward as you’d probably be better off doing more damage and ending the fight sooner. I like the idea of ignore pain being across all specs but it’s going to have to be pretty strong to ever be worth using as Arms or Fury since it’s a dumping rage and therefore damage. I think Death Wish could be a very fun spell to add back to warriors, as it could provide a flavorful and skillful style of play that players could ignore if they don’t want to risk it. Talent selection as a whole still could use improvement. Most specs have very little wiggle room on only a few rows. Double time & Stormbolt don’t feel like they should be on the same row (this feeling could change if charge stun was a thing) and having impending victory compete against those two talents on DPS specs feels strange to say the least.

Fury

Fury feels generally okay. It’s been in a generally fun to play space since Legion. War Machine & Fresh Meat feel like they’ll almost always be relegated to being leveling talents and I can’t really envision many scenarios where Furious Charge is ever used. I like the addition of Fervor of Battle to the spec and Onslaught is an interesting addition although the animation is a bit meh. From a playstyle perspective Dragons Roar is fine but I’ve personally always felt that it never quite fit the class as warriors have little to do with dragons. Something like Bloodbath or maybe even Odyns Fury with a different name would feel more thematic.

Arms

Arms still feels like it’s in a weird place currently. Our Mastery: Deep Wounds is fine in theory, bleeds thematically fit a warrior and it provides a smoothing out of the arms damage profile. However it’s not particularly fun to play with. Making it a passive part of the spec when you crit could be an interesting addition and I think another mastery could fit better. I would like to see Sweeping Strikes come off the GCD as it currently feels clunky to use as it has no immediately active effect. The Cleave rework is interesting but I can’t help thinking it should be a baseline ability for Arms as it feels very spec fitting. I think the Azerite Trait Striking the Anvil would make an excellent talent providing moments of excitement to a generally slower paced spec. A final big note for Arms is that it’s defensive capability is notably weaker compared to the rest of the Warrior class. Defensive Stance becoming baseline could go a long way to remedying this.

I don’t tank enough to provide feeback on Protection. Thanks to anyone who reads this wall of text :slight_smile:

32 Likes

Protection

I main protection so most of my thoughts will be put into this spec of warrior.

The change to the level 45 talent tier for Protection Warriors has effectively killed the fast and furious playstyle of Protection from BFA. Having Into the Fray, Unstoppable Force, and Booming Voice on the same tier while also nerfing Anger Management has removed this build of Protection Warrior. While I understand this was a particular strong build for Protection Warrior it was also incredibly fun for me. I would like to see at least Into the Fray and Unstoppable force separated again as these two talents together made for a quick and fun rotation and burst cycle and combined with Anger Management made it so the fun parts kept coming. The worst part of Protection in my opinion is the downtime when your just spamming Devastate hoping for shield slam procs and while the combination of Unstoppable force and Anger Management is still possible the loss of Into the Fray slows down the rotation a lot and I would like to preserve this unique style of Protection that was made possible in BFA.

I also believe that with all the passive nerfs of Demoralizing Shout through the loss of Azerite Traits and the loss of its cooldown reduction in Anger Managment this ability should come off the gcd. Demoralizing Shout feels horrible on the gcd as it does nothing but give damage reduction on mobs that are near you. Having my lowest cd damage reduction on the gcd just makes me not want to use it because of how gross it feels to hit the ability. If you don’t want to remove it from the gcd please give it an additional effect the makes hitting the ability feel fun.

The return of Execute, Hamstring, and Shattering Throw to Protection Warrior feel great. I have already found many uses for all three of these abilities in the new dungeon The Necrotic Wake. Whirlwind though has me a bit confused as I do not know when I would ever use this. It’s a 30 rage cost ability that deal less damage than Revenge which only costs 20 rage. I think this ability if it’s ment to be used should either be buffed to a higher damage value or be given a talent/additional effect for Protection that incentives using it. At the moment I do not think it will be an ability I will ever use.

Having Devastator moved to the level 30 talent row with Dragon’s Roar and Best Served Cold is a good thing for people who enjoyed that style of play for Protection Warrior and will more likely be a competitive option on that row so that’s great in my opinion.

The buffs and passive nerfs to the level 40 tier of Bolster, Indomitable and Never Surrender are great and this tier became a lot more interesting to pick which one fits my playstyle/situation as before the correct answer was Bolster for anything pve and Never Surrender for pvp.

Overall from the runs I’ve done as a Protection Warrior of the newest dungeon I have felt overall much weaker defensively compared to BFA and while I’m still missing large sources of player power from this expansion’s systems I can’t help but feel at the moment that Protection Warrior will fall into the niche of being a high damage tank while being okay defensively which I personally do not want as it never feels good to be the perceived as the tank who only gets taken because they do more damage then other tanks in aoe.

Arms

The return of intervene and spell reflect are amazing additions to the warrior again and I am already hitting spell reflect like it never left and Ignore pain is a godsend for arms. I can already think of so many situations having these abilities will be beneficial in both pve and pvp. The new piercing howl for arms and fury is also very interesting and will help a lot of the match ups where arms and fury get kited easily.

I would like to see the talent Cleave be changed to make it so your Whirlwind changes into Cleave once you have whirlwinded three targets or more. This would help with making room for other abilities on your bar as with other active talents such as Rend and Skullspliter the hotbars for arms begin to get a bit cluttered in my opinion.

The new Deadly Calm is nice and far less punishing then the old Deadly Calm. This talent is great if you love having excess of rage and hitting this ability in a bosses execute phase feels amazing.

Personally I would like to see Defensive Stance return to arms baseline. It’s pretty much required for pvp and very strong in pve. Stances have for a long time been a core part of Warrior’s identity and I would like to see that return at least for arms.

I am glad to see seismic wave stay in the form of the new Dreadnought as it always made overpower feel good to use especially in aoe situation and the addition of its sweeping strikes interaction has been really fun in the new dungeon.

Fury

I would very much like the return of Single Minded Fury. It was my personal favorite way of playing Fury and I was sad when it disappeared. If you can’t balance it at least the option to transmog to one handers for Fury would be nice.

Onslaught is great. I love having this big meaty hit as Fury and it feels amazing to use this ability especially with it’s old raging blow animation which I missed a lot.

If there is anything I would like to see return to Fury it’s something similar to Odyn’s Fury from Legion. Going into pvp and hitting someone for half their health with this ability always put a smile on my face.

42 Likes

A lot of non prot warriors are happy to see intervene back, but I’m actually unhappy with one spell splitting into 2 and having to once again whip out macros. It’s also a nerf for prot. I’m going to focus on this point since others above already did a great job outlining the issues with over nerfing anger management and general tearing down of prot warrior burst damage having probably gone too far.

Live Prot
A single spell that can charge to either an enemy OR a player on a 15 second recharge. No talent needed for it and it has 2 charges baseline. It has 3 possible scenarios that are possible within a short window

Double charge to enemies
Double charge to allies
charge to 1 of each.

Alpha prot
Now, with two different buttons with no double time we lost double charge options for both and only have 1 of each. In addition, CD of charging to allies is doubled and charge to enemies is 5 seconds longer. This is a large nerf unless we take double time.

Even if we take double time, we still have a single charge of allies on a double CD. and double enemy charge on a longer recharge than before. The only gain is the super rare situation you could double charge enemies and 1 ally within a short span. This doesn’t feel like a win though with what was lost.

Basically, arms and fury saw a large benefit to changes but prot got nerfed all around and were given an uninteresting tallent choice to try and somewhat unnerf it.

You should honestly consider to, instead of adding more buttons for sake of more buttons, give ALL 3 warrior specs the LIVE version of intervene that has 2 charges on a 15 sec recharge that can be enemy or ally. Then, eliminate the boring double time talent all together.

Unpruning should be bringing back nice things like disarm being baseline again instead of a pvp talent, giving spell reflect to everyone (which you did, yay) etc, not literally nerfing a baseline skill by splitting it into two, making CD longer, and making us waste a talent to still not be as good as we were before shadowlands.

Not to mention, because many prot warriors will be forced to take that talent to not feel their mobility nerf as hard, are then going to feel like their choices of CC have been nerfed/taken away in the fact that they are forced to choose between mobility and better stuns. Putting those choices against each other literally makes no sense.

For the CC row, It makes far more sense the way it’s setup on live of putting menace on the row with rumbling earth and storm bolt. 3 CC options together. This also ensures you don’t end up with situations of opposite problem, where on shadowlands it’s now possible to have manace AND lower shockwave CD, so you might see situations where prot warriors have too much aoe CC (which might be too strong in M+ and PVP)

38 Likes

I agree the Storm Bolt / Impending Victory / Double Time row has always been weird. I understood from a design point at first, but after a couple years of dealing with it my feelings changed a lot. The choice really isn’t there in any group content. If you don’t take Storm Bolt outside of a raid boss you’re being selfish over helping the group. Even in Rated Battlegrounds where certain maps downright require having Double Time, it feels like your skimping out on your team to be missing Storm Bolt. I thought it’d be asking for the world to say this but, honestly the old row of double charge vs charge time reduction vs charge stun was the time I swapped these talents the most, and it felt like individuals style of warrior more so than “this situation mandates this or you’re selfish” type thing, while still retaining room for certain choices to be stronger in certain situations. I get that you don’t want mobility talents going against mobility talents but, that was the last time it felt like I was choosing a specialized benefit rather than losing something.

I think the Piercing Howl changes might be going the right direction to give Hamstring a niche, and I appreciate the 70% slow potential, but I think the range reduction needs to go. An added CD and the duration cut in half feels like enough. The range reduction makes it weaker at the things it should be strong at, filling its role as a ranged slow and its ability to slow a lot of things at once.

27 Likes

ive played alot of prot warrior threw the zone ive not really tanked a dungon with it but it seems to be very solid but it a bit on the squishey side still unless you use your cd at the right time and it needs to be a bit more tanky in my opion

Initial thoughts:

All specs:

I don’t like Sudden Death competing with War Machine. War Machine makes outdoor content much more fluid, so it feels like a required pick for questing, which makes Sudden Death only feel like an option for instanced content.

Arms is actually fun to play again. It felt too slow and clunky in Legion and BFA, but I’m having a blast with it in Shadowlands. I can’t put my finger on what exactly changed, because I didn’t play it much at all in BFA, but it feels fantastic now.
Dreadnaught feels really good to play with. The extra charge of Overpower is so good that I feel like it should just be baseline, and the talent reworked into something different.

Fury: I still miss SMF, but I like that I can slap on a shield with my 2-hander. Currently I’m not sure a shield gives that much more survivability than the extra stamina you get from the second 2h, but I guess Fury’s not supposed to be a tank spec.

3 Likes

I wanted to focus on Protection talent feedback row by row first and then dive into abilities in a future post.

I’ve played through the Bastion content available and run through the dungeon once.

Please bear in mind this is simply first impression feedback and no hard math has been done yet (I’ll leave that to those more suited to the maths). Simply want to start the discussion early.

Talents

Row 15- Feels ok. WM has a place in leveling and maybe early end-game (low haste) for passive rage gen. Punish looks like the go-to pick for ST raids and IV got a buff to 30% hp. More time needed to see if one of these really pulls ahead. I like the choice available here.

Row 25- Mobility feels a bit gimped without baseline double charge so Double time feels like almost a must pick, leaving out a strong stun with Storm bolt. Some variance here but hard to see myself playing without DT even with intervene back on the action bar. Not a huge concern here though.

Row 30- Personally I like this row but I don’t see how BSC can be competitive with DR with the new 3 ppm cap on revenge. I suspect DR will continue to win out even though it doesn’t have a chance to reset SS since DR is NOT target capped and currently has no damage fall off (I like that, it’s a fun button to press). Devastator being on this row is good for build-variance for ST vs Aoe.

Row 35- The new Menace is pretty solid if a bit wild with the knockback. Will be good for m+ utility. BS will still probably be the pick for ST raids so decent choice here. CT is likely to suffer here due to fall off and generally low damage on TC without supporting BFA traits.

Row 40- This is where things start to get a bit rough because the choice is still muddied. To start with, NS is never going to compete here because the other 2 are critical to prot warr surv. NS design feels a bit out of sync with how preventative (rather than reactive like a BDK) prot warrs are. Baking the legion bracer healing effect into Indom is a great start to make it a competitive talent. It should be noted that (with the content currently available and barring legendaries/soulbinds that may improve this) prot warr generates and spends a LOT LESS rage than we did in Legion when the bracers were a thing so Indom may not be as strong as it initial appears. Bolster is suffering greatly from Last Stand being taken off AM (more on that in a bit). This presents an issue because block effective uptime could still be a big problem for warrs and will likely continue to result in seeing them scoffed at for bleeding edge raid prog (in broad community opinion). If the AM change (removing LS and Demo Shout from it) is here to stay, I’d suggest that baking the block component of Bolster into baseline LS and introducing a replacement talent (maybe a small utility CD like Vigilance from WoD) would be an incredible improvement without pushing warrs over the top.

Row 45 Likely the toughest row to choose from. ItF is going to be needed early in the expac because of low haste from gear, but the same is likely to be said for BV because of rage gen. UF is gutted because the Azerite traits that made TC beefy are gone and it does not hit as hard as it used to. People will probably still pick it because they will not want to let go of the big clap lifestyle but more needs to be math’d out to see if it’s competitive. BV vs ItF is likely to come down to encounter specific choice, which is honestly probably ok.

Row 50 Stop me if you’ve heard this before but….Ravager is still a complete meme. I don’t understand how it is acceptable that a final row talent has been a complete joke for now almost 3 consecutive expansions. I cannot stress how disappointing this is. I haven’t picked it since WoD and it’s conceptually a cool ability (I want to use it!!!). It just doesn’t make any sense with how consistent the other two picks are for both offense and defense. Please, try to think outside the box with it. It seems like an ability that SHOULD be used in mythic plus so please find a utility component to it that makes sense. Maybe something like a druid vortex or DH sigil where the swirling vortex of blades sucks enemies in. AM is gutted because DS and LS are gone from it. I understand why this needed to be done and it does bring it more in line with HR so there may be more variance in that pick, but since it is basically needed for SW and Avatar (the former of which is extremely important due to incomplete block coverage from SB and now a longer CD on Bolster), it’s still going to be hard to get away from unless HR + expansion powers allow us to bridge that block gap. HR will probably see more play than it currently does.

Overall I think talents have taken a step in a positive direction with regards to choice, but I’m a bit wary of what our effective block uptime is going to look like in m+ and encounters like Hivemind where a single tank is actively taking damage for the whole fight. That and Ravager…

Thank you for your time!

13 Likes

Heroic Leap needs to be available at a lower level than 33, it is a titular warrior ability and our primary mobility. Mages get blink at 4 and monks get roll at 3. Please reconsider leaps level requirement.

To further on this, currently leap is level 26 on retail which takes approximately 30 minutes. This feels wonderful. On Alpha it takes more than 4 hours to get to 33 which feels terrible. I really think with the ranking system more abilities should be given early on and modified as you level. IE Heroic Leap at level 10 with a 2 minute CD, level 20 with a minute 15 CD and Level 30 with a 45 second CD.

Heroic Leap is also one of the most fun things about being a warrior, if the goal was to get more classes to feel the identity of a warrior and want to play one, having access to our feet (yes) of strength sooner is important.

16 Likes

Why are you comparing heroic leap to roll? You get charge at level 2. You get war machine at level 15 if you want it. Then heroic leap at 26. Meanwhile, monks get transcendence after heroic leap at 30, they get an extra roll charge on the same tier as your extra charge. I’m not saying heroic leap at a lower level is a bad idea, but I mean you just complained that taking 4 hours to get more than 50% of max level was horrible…What would you want to push back later in place of heroic strike?

4 Likes

Charge is an offensive mobility, its meant for closing the gap.

Roll is for defensive and offensive. You can roll away, you can roll towards.

With the way leveling is being changed, having a defensive mobility is incredibly important. Roll is comparative to Heroic Leap.

Leap at level 15 seems plenty reasonable.

Considering it takes only 30 minutes to go from level 20 to 26 on retail to get heroic leap.

7 Likes

You can charge to a critter to get away. Roll isn’t comparative to heroic leap. New players don’t start at level 20. So 26 for heroic leap isn’t that bad, but if you get it sooner, what should they push back instead? Can’t front load everything.

1 Like
  • (Protection) Execute now also has a chance to reset the cooldown of Shield Slam.
13 Likes

That’s a decent change, because otherwise the GCD was actually working against us for procs/rage generation. Whirlwind is still inherently useless to prot though for same reason. We’d pretty much never hit whirlwind over revenge so having it on our bars is still completely impractical at the moment. That’d also have to have a chance to reset CD of shield slam and as a heavier rage spender, actually hit harder. Personally and selfishly though, i hope it’s left useless so I don’t have more buttons to hit than I want. :slight_smile:

8 Likes

Heroic leap wasn’t unlocked until above level 80 before, it’s a high level ability. I’m very okay with it where it is

7 Likes

Flying unlocks at 30 now, feels pretty useless to get as a mobility option at 33.

Also, its a level 26 ability on retail and has been that way for a while.

6 Likes

My feedback will be focused more on the PvE dps side of things since that’s my usual gameplay.

General Warrior

The baseline additions to warrior are almost universally good, and extremely welcome. Spell Reflection in particular for dps warriors adds an amazingly unique niche for dungeon and raid utility. Shattering Throw provides a very cool situational use case without feeling compulsory as it did when it was a raid cooldown. I’m extremely glad Blizzard chose to go this direction with it instead. Intervene is also a welcome return, and gives a bit of relief when making the dreaded choice between Double Time and Storm Bolt (this is still a problematic choice, just slightly less now).

Ignore Pain solves a very big issue for Arms, which was rot damage, and combined with Defensive Stance makes Arms arguably the tankiest melee next to Fury and Havoc in these rot damage situations. Fury does not seem to benefit as much from Ignore Pain due to the 80 rage cost, which presumably is balanced around the opportunity cost of 80 rage Rampage as Fury’s only real rage spender. This is inconsistent with the Arms’ 40 rage IP vs a 30 rage MS cost. I would like to see Fury’s IP cost reduced to that of Arms’, as both specs seem to be gaining rage at a relatively similar pace on the alpha.

As for Shield Block/Shield Slam, the requirement for shields to be equipped needs some consideration in Mythic+, as it is currently impossible to change any gear mid-run. I love the idea of a utility niche for the dps warrior, who is usually second on threat to the tank anyways, being able to save a group from wiping to a tank death by becoming a temporary tank with actual active mitigation, but that won’t be possible as things stand. Rather than opening Pandora’s box with allowing weapon swapping in m+, simply giving us the faction specific “temp” shield we currently get for Defensive Stance and Spell Reflection for a short duration when Shield Block is used. Using Shield Block could then light up Shield Slam, which could be infused to provide some kind of armor buff to make up for the fact that we wouldn’t be using a real shield. Some nominal reduction to damage done could also be added to prevent this from being abused in unforeseen ways. These combined with Challenging Shout could reward a situationally aware warrior with a serious pogchamp moment.

The rest of the toolkit that was added back to various specs (Execute, Hamstring, Slam, and Whirlwind) all seem fine, although I’m not sure when Fury would Slam or Prot would Whirlwind, but that’s not a big deal.

Arms

I’ll be very candid and say I didn’t love the direction Arms went from Legion to BFA, but it feels like a return to form in Shadowlands. Rage income feels great even with terrible gear (currently sitting at a whopping 12% haste and it still feels fine). Ravager not replacing Bladestorm gives the talent a purpose again, and competes with a reworked Dreadnaught which is also a significant upgrade on its current version. Seismic Wave was simply undertuned in BFA, but it was never a bad design in my opinion.

A special shout out to the Arms level 40 talent row in Alpha: New Cleave is so much better than I anticipated when I first read the tooltip, actually playing with it is just extremely pleasurable. Warbreaker still serves as the giant burst of damage best suited for a fairly common type of raid encounter, likewise with Collateral Damage being the obvious two target choice. This talent row to me feels like what all talent rows should aspire to be.

Arms’ niche in the new target-cap-world will be spreading out bleeds on packs with more than 5 enemies in them, and this should provide a fairly engaging play style for warriors trying to get every last ounce of damage out of their class in Shadowlands. So far in The Necrotic Wake dungeon, the 5/8 target cap hasn’t felt significant, but I also mostly played Fury all of BFA so I’m fairly used to it at this point.

All in all, Arms has kept what worked, improved on what didn’t, and the additions from the un-pruning feel very welcome.

Fury

In BFA, an expansion where seemingly everyone had complaints about how their class played, I thoroughly enjoyed playing my smooth-as-butter Fury Warrior. It lacked the utility and uncapped AOE of Outlaw and Havoc in Mythic+, but was a solid A or B Tier M+ melee option for most of the expansion, and had moments of being among the best overall options in Mythic raiding.

Going into Shadowlands, Fury remains largely unchanged from BFA in play style, and adds a few new talents into the mix to replace some of the more stale talents. Onslaught, aside from the lame animation, is a cool addition that adds a wrinkle to the Enrage window. Aside from the rage cost of Ignore Pain I outlined earlier, the un-pruning additions are as welcome as they are for Arms. Losing Cold Steel Hot Blood as our dominant Azerite trait does make a difference in the damage and survivability profile of Fury, although this is something that could easily be added back in the form of a Legendary or Covenant bonus at a later time.

The level 30 talent row is not very exciting at all as it currently stands. Fervor of Battle feels mutually exclusive with Furious Slash, if they were on the same talent row that might make more sense. Massacre might end up being an interesting choice with the Venthyr covenant bonus, but is otherwise not very noticable. Fresh Meat is still a head-scratcher, I’m not sure if there’s any way to save this talent while keeping its thematic concept in place.

Overall, Fury feels fine, nothing too bad or too good, it still flows very well, but it feels stale compared to Arms now. This might just be a me problem, having played it in BFA for well over a year now (I think I switched on G’huun progression), maybe I’m just bored with it.

Conclusion

These are just my initial thoughts, and I know I am not looking at a complete picture. So much is bound to change from current level 53 to end game at 60, but I am firmly optimistic about dps warrior at this early stage. I look forward to continued testing and hope my wall of feedback was of some use to the devs. A great job by them so far, and I appreciate their hard work and dedication.

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I confess I still desperately miss baseline stances.

That said, I still think the Warrior is genuinely fun to play.

I like that some utilities are returning that make situational off-tanking far more realistic, in the event that your tank died or something.

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