Please don’t make Feint into an offensive ability. That’s a nonstarter. I will choose whatever other spec you’re building for sub purely based on how much I dislike this design decision, assuming it is somehow better, which to be honest seems increasingly unreasonable.
Also, my assumption about the Tricks talent is that it just prevents the tricks cast from timing out before it triggers, rather than all threat getting transferred to the target effectively permanently, because there is no way the latter will go live this way for M+.
7 Likes
I think most problems come from vanish and shadow dance.
Vanish should be like a 5 min cooldown skill for emergency, plus few seconds that can’t attack after used.
And shadow dance should be subtlety rogue only.
2 Likes
Thanks for your uh… Contribution to the conversation? /s
Hopefully we get answers about this tree’s fate sooner than later at this point, a small response like the only Oracle got would be nice to look forward to the future
2 Likes
warrior forums is that way? idk why people want to play rogue without the stealth element when outlaw especially had astealth element all its life. combat was the pvp spec mind you, so alot of people are self reporting as bad rogues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY1YMxKDKDg
“I have no clue what I’m talking about” in a post
1 Like
Late on this… but like… why Feint. I’m sure I’m speaking to the choir on this one, and obviously the whole ‘Sleight of Hand, Feint before Striking’ idea of a Trickster… but from a mechanical standpoint, why not just… attach it to Main Gauche and Shadow Techniques?
Could be a flat improvement. Like Shadow Techniques also cause you to strike out, and Main Gauche causes the off-hand strike to hit all enemies now, or its a % chance on top of the base 30% for those passives to trigger to ALSO strike with an Unseen Blade. You barely have to change anything for this to work, lol… maybe some rebalancing for Thousand Cuts vs Flickerstrike, since obviously it’d make Thousand Cuts that much better, but still! It was right there!
Edit to add Note: Both Main Gauche and Shadow Techniques have a baseline 30% chance to trigger, identical, and both specs have talents which can increase the chance it triggers, which to me feel like fair game for a Hero Talent that utilizes those passives. Like every other hero talent that augments a specific ability, or requires a certain ability (looking at Paladin here, with both Ret Pallys requiring Wake of Ashes to function). But 30% also isn’t that bad that you feel like you HAVE to maximize their chance to proc to get the effect of this hero talent tree if that change was made.
So a guild member of mine on my rogue suggested I put in feedback because I do play a subtlety rogue, but I only go up to +20 keys. I’m not very good at the game. Take my opinions on it with a grain of salt. This is me looking at it from a very casual perspective.
Please do not bully me I will cry.
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I do like how Unseen Blade can pop off of Slice n’ Dice as well as Feint. If you do go back to the drawing board on this one, please make sure that the Slice n’ Dice proc chance is pretty high so that Feint can remain a fairly consistent defensive option.
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There is a lot of invisible buff bloat with this hero spec to keep track of which will cause WeakAura reliance. Not a huge deal but for Add-on minimalists like myself it’s annoying.
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Flickerstrike is honestly garbage compared to Thousand Cuts outside of niche circumstances. Especially since it can only pop once every five seconds and Feint last six seconds.
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Smoke/Mirrors is pretty good, and it offers pretty good trade offs. Both are pretty decent but I’d buff smoke a bit more to make it more appealing as opposed to the Feint buff, Mirrors, which will appeal more as it buffs the more active ability you’ll be using here.
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Cloud Cover/No Scruples made me go ‘Wut?’ when I looked over them. If I’m adding distract to my rotation now for a CHANCE for Fazed, it better be a pretty high chance because there’s already a buncha buttons for the casual rogue player. Skill issue, I know, I know, shut up, but Fazing the targets is going to be a massive part of dealing optimum DPS. No Scruples is actually bad. Not additional crit DAMAGE. Crit CHANCE. If anyone’s reading this and this spec drops as is, never take No Scruples until it’s fixed.
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Surprising Strikes is hilarious because it’s way better than No Scruples and it’s earlier in the tree.
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So Tricky/Don’t Be Suspicious are silly and I love them. Plus reduced cooldown on Blind for certain affixes is very appealing.
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Nimble Flurry is a baseline, boring, nothing special Secret Techniques buff and cooldown reduction and I’m here for it.
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Coup de Grace. Now here’s the thing and why I don’t necessarily think it’s bad, but also why I feel like it definitely needs some testing before you roll it out. So in this hypothetical best case scenario, I’m in an M+ key with my good squad and we’re in a pretty large clump of mobs. I have three stacks of unseen blade. Here’s neat part. I can tap Feint, get a quick and easy two combo points and immediately faze every single mob around me and get my last stack of unseen blade, and then pop Black Powder for that extra damage. This is a basic ‘I GET IT’ example with Trickster, but the thing about it is… this.
Trickster has way too much going on. At least for a casual rogue like me. Again, skill issue, git gud, learn 2 game, uninstall, I know, I know. I just personally think that the razzle dazzle you’re going for here is pretty interesting, but it comes at the cost of really having to sit down and CHEW.
Like compare this to, say, Scalecommander, which on paper is pretty straight forward with how it functions. Easy to grasp, easy to deploy, easy to do. You have two sets of action bars as a rogue already. Combo points, Energy meters, buffs up and down to constantly track, variants in your rotation depending on what cooldowns are presently available to you. It’s partially why I love the class so much. There is so much to keep you stimulated with rogue, but it can get overwhelming. It is overwhelming. A lot of the time.
Do we really need to add yet another combo-point lite to the mix? Even if when done successfully, and I do think Trickster if done successfully will surprise a lot of people with what it can do if the proc chances are tuned correctly, it can do stupid damage?
But no, seriously, fix No Scruples that talent is actually a joke.
9 Likes
Bestie for real this is fine. These talents will effect how every Rogue interacts with the game, so feedback from all areas of play is valuable.
2 Likes
I echo most sentiments here but also the problems a lot of people have with Trickster’s interactions with sub really highlights how badly this unplayable mess of a spec needs a back-to-basics approach of a redesign. It’s breathtakingly refreshing to think about playing sub in Cata classic, where the purpose of shadowdance is to let you use ambush. That’s it. It lets you use a hard-hitting ability, one that hits so hard it’s tuned to not normally be usable outside of an opening burst. That’s a neat design concept that ANYONE can understand and enjoy playing around with.
Instead the spec has become such a bloated catastrophe over the years, shoving so many more buttons to smash in the dance window and scaling back the simple, easily-comprehensible beauty of ‘hit ability that does big damage’ that I absolutely dread any tier where sub is the meta. People love rambling about ‘skill expression’ but that can’t override playability and enjoyability. There’s so many other things you could do with shadowdance to complement the ‘ambush hit hard’ concept that don’t devolve into forcing people to smash 17 more buttons to arbitrarily do a bigger % of bonus damage for a few seconds. Worse yet, once you’ve balanced the ENTIRE spec around these button-mashing windows, the only way to meaningfully tune up or down is to design every new talent and tier set to either a) force you to mash MORE buttons in the window, b) force you into the window more often (shadowdust), or c) just throw more boring passive % damage bonuses into the window. All of these options suck and leave you feeling anemic when you’re outside of the window.
Please redesign this thing from the ground up and please consider a complete rebuild of sub if yall are gonna keep going with adding more buttons to the mix.
Also this is my sub rant, but this doesn’t look any better on outlaw, for similar reasons - way too many things to track as it is, another WA to fiddle with debuffs sounds awful. Thank god for assassination (until they reveal its hero tree having 7 plates to spin, at least).
11 Likes
. Classic will be out for you soon. Don’t ruin the specs before you go play it.
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Never mind some no thinking “go to classic” words, “it” just never put any effort to improve things.
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I strongly dislike it when you take a utility/defensive ability and then hamfirst it into the rotation as an offensive ability. It completely invalidates the utility since the ability is never available when the utility is practical.
You did it first with Vanish, and now you’re doing it with Feint. Please stop. It is not fun gameplay.
Trickster needs a redesign.
I definitely didnt like this trickster tree. They are putting distract and feint in the rotation as if sub rogue didnt had enough button to press already…
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We need a rogue dev that stops doubling down every expansion with their bad decision making and stops ignoring all feedback. Bad enough the clown leaves abilities broken all expansion or at least through half of it.
9 Likes
Get rid of Deathmark and Bring Back Vendetta #Warwithin
Where are Assassination hero talents??
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Lying in wait my friend, we’re likely in the next few builds along with dh / priest / shaman for the last batch of hero talents.
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As far as I understand, Trickster made it to the Alpha in the same state it was revealed…?
If that is the case… well… that’s kinda lame
6 Likes
Trickster I guarantee is going to be super niche for PVE or PVP.
The other hero talent trees will have to be really bad for Trickster to be “mainstream”.
1 Like