FEEDBACK: Torghast, Tower of the Damned

Very cool so far.

However the room generation can lead to a rather weird difficulty curve. Doing easy as a solo DH was easy, as advertised. But if the first room on normal is, say, that guy with oppression aura and infinite exploding skeles, ouch. After getting a few powers though, the higher floors can be easier than some first rooms.

Did both of the quests for Skoldus Hall and the Fracture Chambers. (i think thats what they were called idk)

This mode is incredibly fun. I think Anima powers drop way too often (had 27 by the end of the Fracture Chambers, which is only 5 floors with a boss 6th) but other than that this feels great.
Also, it’d be nice to see stacked Anima powers show the stacked statistics. Had 4 stacks of the “Eye beam has a 20% chance to negate cooldown” power but it just always said 20% no matter how many I got. I don’t know if this specific power just doesn’t stack.

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Ya I noticed new Anima powers added all the time. It could get to become overkill in the spell department. As it is now it will take some learning…

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Not sure if this is the place to discuss Anima Powers, but I must say the Healing spec priest options were horrible.
Most of them buff healing or offer some option that increases healing interactions in some other way.

They are near useless compared to the other specs I have tested and likely need to be rethought otherwise we are looking at another 40 percent health nerf needed for healers again.

I’m not sure how difficult these things are supposed to be but I literally couldn’t kill a single mob as a holy priest on Heroic and there was no hope of any help coming.
At least at other specs a good opening roll would carry.

That might be another issue.
That opening Anima power being so random is really going to be an issue if we are indeed going to have limited entrances a week.
It could make such a huge difference.

But I think the difficulty is just all out of whack. The difficulty just goes down every level at this time. Once you get rolling you basically can’t die.

5 Likes

I’ve done Heroic Torghast and managed to finish Heroic Difficulty with 72 waves and had 124 Anima Powers, so I think I’m in one of the most unique positions for feedback right now (can check screenshots on my Twitter, @itsneryssa).

The difficulty curve, at least for Heroic mode, is rather weird. It starts out as being incredibly hard without Anima Powers at room 26, but as you progress through the tower and gain more powers, scaling starts growing to insane levels. At around Room 55, when I stopped bothering going for Anima Powers, I was critting around 250k with Chaos Bolt during my cooldowns. At the end of the run, I had 107% Critical Strike Change, 121% Haste and 201% Mastery as a Destruction Warlock. It starts incredibly hard and it just sharply becomes easier and easier, to the point where after Room 60 I could just mount on my Mawrat and rush through enemies.

  • Bloating Fodder is probably the biggest offender in all of this. Once you get enough stacks of it, the strategy basically becomes gather as many mobs and Mawrats as possible and quickly kill one Mawrat, which will create a chain reaction by killing all other Mawrats, and their Bloating Fodder will burst everything else. At around floor 40, using this strategy was already almost deleting elite mobs. It only became more and more powerful as floors went. Not sure what would be a good way to prevent this besides straight reducing the damage of Bloating Fodder, as even a low amount of Mawrats like 3-4 at high stacks of Bloating Fodder was enough to kill everything around them.

  • The stat % buffs are a bit inconsistent: Crit and Haste seemed to cap at 10 stacks for me, but Mastery and Health seemed to stack infinitely. Not sure what is the intended behavior here.

  • Speaking about % buffs, the Health % stacking is insane at 20% per stack. I had 24 stacks of Obleron Endurance by the end of the room, and almost 500k health. At that point I could likely pull an entire floor and not die as I had so much health. It definitely needs to be either hard capped or toned down significantly.

8 Likes

I’ve spent around 4? hours in Torghast today and so far I am having a blast - The only disappointment for me so far is that the easy/normal runs have an end and if you want an infinite run you need to start on H - Not sure if thats for testing or how it’ll be on live. However it’ll be easier with gear and soulbind system.

Tuning aside, it’s extremely enjoyable. Everytime I get an anima power i’m excited to see what it’s offering as there are some really big game changers, stacking them is also fun. Reminds me a lot of risk of rain 2 - and slay the spire. It’s just an insanely fun mode.

My biggest hope here however, is that you do not limit how many entrances into torghast we get a week - and instead limit the best loot (legendary mats and so on) to weekly, with other rewards still dropping here and there.

I’m excited to see the improvements that come over the course of the alpha and how it plays out with soulbinds and other endgame systems.

3 Likes

In 12 hours I went from knowing absolutely nothing about Demon Hunters (never played one) to getting Level 72 solo in Torghast.

Nerf Demon Hunters, holy hell. They are incredibly broken in Torghast.

The ability and flavor changes are great, you really feel like a champion and I absolutely loved every minute of it, but I don’t think a class should be able to push that hard as a fresh char so easily? If I had done this as a warrior, oof, it would have been hell. Hopefully some more effort is put into this to balance against classes.

I will say, after having spent 12 hours in Torghast, I was really tempted to start all over again and do it, which is a sign of good content considering there are no rewards.

I

LOVE

LOVE

LOVE

The difficulty. HARD solo content is incredible, I just wish it scaled better, it felt like the content got progressively easier because of the buffs, rather than remaining a challenge.

7 Likes

I’ll add one other bit of feedback - casters seem overly punishing, especially for classes with a long cd interupt - Mage and priest definitely struggle on H with casters, and warlock doesn’t even have an interrupt by default, they just chunk your hp, 8k+ a hit, 3 and your done. It makes it incredibly hard to solo climb starting on heroic - Hopefully on live you can start on floor 1 and go infinitely, not just start randomly on level 25 with nothing to help you survive.

3 Likes

Initial impressions from a random easy DH run- just wanted to get the general feel.

First, and maybe most importantly, it was FUN! Saw a lot of people talking in Zone Chat that were enjoying it, as well.

I liked the Anima powers variety, it felt pretty good to make the choices when they were available. Knowing specifically that they were “borrowed power” and only for the run made it something to play with and not worry if something didn’t work quite the way I thought. The fact that they stack makes for some interesting combos, would be even greater possibilities in a group.

There seemed to be good variety with the urns, anima cells, quest rewards, rares and elites and a rune-locked chest I found to keep it interesting. Layouts were fairly varied, had one floor with platforms to grapple to which was a nice change-up.

SFX and ambiance was great. The assets on the Resonating Chest and the rune-locked chest looked very nice. Got a smile from the “animimic” as well as the “oddly large mawrat”.

I do agree that the mini-quests could use some variety. I did feel like I learned vampires suck at dungeons and get lost/caught a lot.

I also found the bubbling cauldron throwing out skeletons to be a bit annoying- unless there is a way to neutralize it that I couldn’t figure out.

I’ll save anything else until I’ve tried out other classes and difficulties. Bottom line, it was much more fun than I was expecting, and I’m looking forward to having the time to run some more.

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Probably my last post for now before theres new changes - but I cannot get over how fun it is. I just did a VDH run to 72 on heroic (current ingame cap) and I couldn’t stop, it was so incredibly fun.

There are not enough words for me to articulate how much I am enjoying this early alpha piece of content, and I cannot wait to see what else is added.

I also enjoyed how certain mobs would offer you different rewards when you threw an anima orb at them - one turned you into a swarm out of combat which is fun, there are so many “secret” interactions just waiting to be found.

The only dull? part was the mini-quests, they’re pretty reptitive, but I still enjoy them because it’s another anima power and they’re just so fun to see what you get and choose.

The varying different zones and lay outs is just spectacular, a lot reminded me of diablo 3 - especially the later zones that were added to the game in patches, I love that one of them was nature/ardenweald themed, and then some have side paths and things - It’s nice to have different maps, and different mobs on the maps.

There could be more variance in rares and bosses - But getting one boss vs. another early on in Heroic can be the difference of being able to get further or not. (also anima power dependent).

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Last night, I did both quest ones and the easy one, solo as a mage (frost). The quest ones were definitely on the easier side, which I’m guessing was their purpose. Gave an opportunity to try out different choices.

The only confusing thing to me, was “why”. I could understand the 12 or so levels (2 bosses), varying at different difficulties. But people were getting to really high levels last night, and then I wondered if that was too much? Is it a good idea to have someone get more for spending 4 hours in a single dungeon run, compared to someone doing four 1 hour sessions, simply because that’s the time they have to play? Do they even get more for it? or is it just “here have a variety of fun?” and every 6 levels is loot and that is it? (or perhaps this has not been decided yet). Perhaps if there is a “gate” mechanic, it’s not “here, you can go in”, but instead: “You can do X number of rooms (always divisible by 6)”. That way you can use them all in one run as fun, or use them piecemeal.

In terms of abilities, the most notables for me:

  • I greatly dislike the “die for a buff” aspect, so i will always avoid the one that kills you.
  • I tried the “blink has no cooldown, but walk everywhere” one. That was more annoying than it was worth. Looting/clicking on things became very annoying.
  • Blink instant killing the rats and resetting the cooldown was nicer than I thought it would be. It worked on the large rats too.
  • I don’t think I got a single mob in the radius of a rat blowing up. Perhaps this would change at the higher levels.
  • More Mirror images… I think I had 6, that for whatever reason felt fun, yet passive. Perhaps because the boss has to kill that many more
  • At least for the mode I was on, the 50% instant health damage, but heal it back over 14 seconds, was rather useful, especially if I could line up a burst as an opener. I assume that is the point though.
  • The most OP one: frost nova no longer breaks on damage. Combine with frost nova reduced cooldown and two charges. True ice lance spam!
  • The 10% intellect per floor upon doing specific casts… two pieces of feedback here. 1) I don’t mind the “sound” of failure, but the stun seemed like too much. 2) I also don’t believe it mentions that it stacks in the description (though perhaps I missed that), that is 10% stacking per floor.

Other generic feedback:

  • I wasn’t able to click on all orbs. I assume that meant that I had all of it’s unique abilities?
  • There were some disconnected levels (stairs not meeting the top, etc). Due to the “randomness” I did my best to try and describe the situation, but without actually showing a screenshot it’s difficult to describe the issue. Any advice on how to report these?
  • There were a couple spots where I would turn around and see green, rather than the room behind me. Again, I did my best to describe the situation int he bug, but hard to report without screenshots.
  • In some intentional spots of “odd levels”, mobs would “evade” between platforms, even without intention of pulling.
  • The vendor having “kill rats” buffs on what turned out to be the last boss room felt weird. Would be neat if the vendor had “last boss” based items, rather than “dead” ones.

So far, lots of fun! Overall, really, really clean. Looking forward to trying out the harder modes later. Thanks again for all the hard work.

Want to add my 2 cents. I ran the quests and easy level as Havoc DH and normal as Affliction Warlock.

Absolutely loved the tower. When getting some good anima powers rolling and feeling unstoppable it was amazing.

I don’t mind powers resetting when entering a new version as it allows you to come up with new builds, but sometimes an early power can carry you far or you get crap luck with the early powers and run into a wall.

Two concerns I have:

  • Can’t get rid of the endless spawning skeleton cauldron. Are these supposed to be destroyable?
  • How the implementation of going into the dungeon will work.

My concern for the second is that we will have some sort of key like we do for horrific visions, but given that a disconnect ends a run or a bad set of early powers can end a run, that seems overly punishing to have limited attempts. I would much rather see the rewards capped weekly and attempts be unlimited so even if you are done with rewards for the week if you just want to go in and mess around you can.

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I’ve done a couple of runs and they feel much “slower” than Major Visions (org/stormwind) on live. In Visions it feels like the runs took less time than they actually did, whereas in Torghast its the opposite - particularly as I get to the end of the run it feels like its taking forever.

I think the difference is that Visions take place in a fairly compact area with a high mob density, there are no dead ends, and I can mount. In Torghast the areas are usually quite vast, the mob density can be quite low, there are a lot of dead ends that tend to be very long hallways, and I can’t mount. This means that I’m spending most of my time in a Vision doing fun stuff like fighting mobs, whereas in Torghast a significant amount of time is spent just running around.

I’ve found two movement speed increasing anima powers (the 60% wall run one and the flat 50% at all times one). The 60% wall one is really finicky as to what it considers a wall and given how vast some of the rooms are it isn’t particularly useful on some of the levels. You also don’t get either consistently so sometimes you spend the majority of the run slow running.

I think it would be nice if there was a more consistent way of gaining run speed throughout the run.

For example, something like a movement speed buff that stacked each floor and which was temporarily lost after a certain amount of time spent in combat would be nice. Just to make up some numbers - say I gained 10% movement speed per floor and temporarily lost it after 10 seconds in combat.

That would contibute to the feeling of powering up and making the dungeon go “quicker” the longer I spent in it. I also get rewarded for killing groups quickly as doing so lets me maintain high uptime on the speed buff.

The fact that it goes away if I spend too much time continously in combat prevents me from abusing it by just running through the final floors without fighting anything.

edit: I’ll just add - if the goal is for Torghast to take a specific amount of time and the choice is between Torghast without a consistent run speed buff or Torghast with a consistent run speed buff and more/longer floors to compensate; Torghast with a run speed buff and more/longer floors would feel more action packed and therefore more fun.

After having reached floor 72 heroic on my fresh Holy Priest, I think I qualify to give feedback now.

Having done Torghast on both a DH and Lock I wanted to test out the only available healer. I decided to go for Holy Priest, since Disc Priest would probably not really classify as a healer when doing Torghast.


After having done a couple of floors on Normal I went straight to Heroic.
The first 2 floors took me a solid 30-45 min to get through. The only thing that was carrying me was Mind Controlling (MC) enemies and having the enemies finish off the MCd target.

Not having an interrupt or hard CC (outside of Chastise once every 45s) really makes the first few floors frustrating. i soon figured out Psychic Scream was not the way to go, since 9/10 times they would just run into other packs and wipe me. The only thing that made me power through was occasionally MCing the wild Elite if they were available, the healing and damage from Boon of the Ascended and the random NPC tanking for me and them being stuck at 1 hp.

After I got some anima (mainly Catharstick and Curious Miasma) it all went like a breeze. Due to Curious Miasma and Mastery: Echo of Light I never had to think about healing anymore. Using Shadow Word: Death was an enabler to oneshot enemies with Catharstick.

In the end the highest Echo of Light healing tick I’ve seen was 5 million. And the highest crit I’ve dealt with Catharstick was 15.7 million.


Improvements

All in all the start is extremely frustrating as a healer without hard CC. I would love to see some sort of Anima power that would maybe give you an interrupt.

Also I would like to see more synergy with Smite and Holy Fire. Currently all the Anima powers I got offered were either healing ones, or shadow ones. I am unsure how this is for Discipline (will update post when I do this is as disc).

Having a random trash pack containing 2 or 3 elites at the first floor is the worst thing ever. I’d rather not get screwed over by RNG this hard.

Positives

Once you get going it’s so FUN. Running around, one-shotting everything. Pressing Holy Nova off CD, having 482k hp and healing 20x that amount per 3 seconds. God, I sure wish there is no limit on how many times you can enter this when it goes live.

Added some screenies of my in game stats and heal/dmg at floor 72 for those interested.

EDIT

After having tried this for another three times, I can conlcude the first time I just got extremely lucky with mob spawns/anima. God how frustrating this can be when you are just stuck in front of a non-passable elite on floor one, or have a trash pack of 5 enemies on one of the first floors.

I did a Discipline normal run and every healing anima I was offered was tied into flash heal which Discipline doesn’t have so I would skip those. I submitted bug reports asking those to be removed from the pool of available offerings (there were 3 that I saw, but it looks like there are 8 on Wowhead’s list).

The way I got through it as Discipline was 2 * the anima power that when an enemy is damaged they take X damage and are silenced for 4 seconds and then the frostbite one which does 50% damage up front and heals it off if the enemy doesn’t die. I was able to one shot non-elites with Purge the Wicked.

Also every anima power that buffed SW:P did not work if it was talented as PTW, so the available pool of what actually worked for me was limited outside of stat buffs/neutral offerings and the couple mind blast ones.

Finished a Heroic on a Vengance DH as well. The comparisons to other rougelite games had me thinking about several changes that could be implemented.

First and foremost, I anticipate that a meta will develop for each class. Right now, it is hard to say how exactly that will pan out, but I don’t doubt that we will see guides suggesting a priority of anima picks for your runs. If Anima remains entirely RNG, beyond the guaranteed picks from the Red orbs purchased from the Shackled Broker, public opinion might turn on Torghast.

I think Torghast could take an example from Synthetik to remedy this situation. Allow the recycling of unwanted Anima powers, a good example would be the Flash Heal buff for Shadow Priests and expand the amount of powers purchasable at the Shackled Broker. That way people can ‘build’ their Anima powers, while still being forced to play with a ‘suboptimal’ build in between Broker levels. For this system to work the price of powers would most likely need to increase. I would imagine a ratio of two or three recycled powers to one power would make sense, with the price doubling between each rarity. So, two or three common powers could purchase an uncommon power and beyond. I would imagine keeping the powers to a single stack purchase would still be necessary, to prevent people from stacking a single stat buff and overpowering Torghast through stats rather than synergistic choices.

The obvious downside to this is the illusion of choice. Honestly, I had fun on my run with some of the goofier and less safe choices. The movement restrictive Anima powers and the haste buff from red orbing the dark Kyran were great fun. But if I had the ability to refine my build I know I would’ve most likely shifted most of my anima into Vers/Haste buffs, which aren’t very interactive but are amazingly efficient at the moment. I know that I would have much preferred one of the 5% haste/mastery/versa stat increases at the start of the heroic run over something like 50% increase damage on sigil of flame.

Another thing that Torghast might need is the ability to guarantee one specific power from the start of run Anima orb. As several people have said before, the difficulty curve on the start of heroic Torghast is high, high enough right now that restarting to avoid flamekeepers for classes without a reliable interrupt is almost necessary. I think our covenants should influence the pool of abilities we can choose from the entrance orb.

I am not honestly sure these changes would be ‘healthy’ for Torghast gameplay, but they help remove some of the frustration around the early difficulty spike for Heroic Torghast. And I cannot help but anticipate the complaints around RNG once the honeymoon phase for this content wears off.

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Went up to floor 60 on a vengeance demon hunter, which I decided to stop at since it felt meaningless to continue.

Overall, I felt like it was a great experience for the first 15 or so floors. Each individual mobs mechanics felt important enough that i couldn’t just ignore it, and there were choices to make regarding what to pull, what I needed most from the power options given, and what needed to die ASAP in a given engagement (which seems like it’ll vary from class to class; I doubt the kamikaze skeletons pose as much a threat to casters as they did to me initially). I did feel like there wasn’t enough variety with the prisoners/ traps, but as we’re in alpha that’s to be expected. It felt vastly different from the rush mentality most content has had the past two expansions, and in enjoying this type of difficulty more than I thought I would.

The problems start when you’ve picked up a fair amount of buffs. Because there seems to be no limit to how many times you can stack each buff, it progressively got easier instead of harder, and by floor 50 it felt like i was steamrolling a raid from older expansions.

I do not expect us to obtain this many stat buffs per floor when shadowlands is live, but I still feel like there should be a hard cap on each stat buff to prevent some abilities from scaling out of control. In addition, the overlap between certain powers should be addressed (Fel Devastation gets so many different bonuses and cooldown reductions that it becomes an I win button once you’ve obtained enough of them. Perhaps some of them could be dropped in favor of enhancements specific to the CC based sigils?)

Overall, Torghast seems far more interesting than anything else we’ve had for an xpac feature in recent years, and I’m looking forward to seeing what it looks like on release.

2 Likes

I think a big issue with the scaling is just how insane it gets. I feel we should have strong Anima Powers. I feel we should feel epic towards the later stages too. But I think without some sort of cap or reset, it’s out of control.

Unlimited floors is totally fine, but eventually, you gotta get kicked out.

It might be too big a change, but here’s an idea:

  • Each floor defeated increases scaling by 5%.
  • Each boss defeated increases future scaling by an additional 5%.
  • In order to boss through the boss floor to the next room, you must deplete all your Anima Powers.

For example:

  • Floor 1 = 0% scaling.
  • Floor 2 = 5% scaling.
  • Floor 3 = 10% scaling.
  • Floor 4 = 15% scaling.
  • Floor 5 = 20% scaling.
  • Floor 6 = 25% scaling. (Boss floor, Deplete anima powers.)
  • Floor 7 = 5% scaling.
  • Floor 8 = 10% scaling.
  • Floor 9 = 15% scaling.
  • Floor 10 = 20% scaling.
  • Floor 11 = 25% scaling.
  • Floor 12 = 30% scaling. (Boss floor, Deplete anima powers.)
  • Floor 13 = 10% scaling.
  • Floor 14 = 20% scaling.
  • Floor 15 = 30% scaling.
  • Floor 16 = 40% scaling.
  • Floor 17 = 50% scaling.
  • Floor 18 = 60% scaling. (Boss floor, Deplete anima powers.)

Simply reducing the number of Anima powers we get will do this as well. THe issue right now is that we get so many powers.

Having a lot anima powers is most fun part, especially after really hard start. To resolve potential problems with scaling you can allow to enter tower at any level (1,7,13,19,25,etc) and scale rewards based on this.
I finished floor 72 on mage and dh, and on both runs it has become a little boring at level 50-60. So with my system levels can be “unlimited” or hard capped at start+36 with no “gear” rewards at last levels, but with “achievement/cosmetic” rewards (exactly like mage tower in legion, it’s fun to finish on multiple classes at least once)

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After completing a full run to level 72 on heroic as a VDH, I can definitely say that the scaling right now is the real issue.

My total run took me probably about 5 hours, and a good majority of that was the first 10 floors. The very first floor probably took me half an hour, at least. Even as a tank spec, I was forced to taunt pull single mobs one at a time. Both of the elites on that floor were sweat-inducing fights that forced me to use every single CD I had, plus my Steward potion, and I just barely survived each of them.
It was only after I got about 5-6 floors in that I started to even feel comfortable pulling more than a couple mobs at a time, and after 10 floors, it no longer felt like I could lose.

I feel like the baseline difficulty should be lowered, but the scaling per floor should increase fairly substantially.

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