FEEDBACK: Torghast, Tower of the Damned

Torghast is so fun!!!

I’ve run it multiple times on each of the 4 available classes so far, mostly solo. I can’t get enough of it! Here’s some loosely grouped feedback from my sleep deprived brain:

Anima Powers

I really enjoy how the beginning of each level is a rested area and that many spec-specific anima powers auto-update when you change specs. I found myself playing all 3 available specs at various points of any given run as I found new powers which were more suited to each spec. The only downside to this is that I always found myself starting as vengeance when playing DH only to swap to havoc once I got enough upgrades to have good sustain.

The power curve felt very flat at the beginning then comically steep once you got a good handful of powers with synergy. It would be nice if we could start with more powers at the beginning (maybe 2-3 orbs instead of 1), but then for there to be fewer overall upgrades as you progress (and making the chance of the the really OP powers be lower at low levels). Something like this might also make it feel like less of a detriment to start as the dps spec of a class that could tank or heal. When your limiting factor is deaths, why start as a DPS spec when your class can tank or heal and be safer?

Death Limit/Tarragrue

I really like how there is no time limit and instead you just have to worry about death counts and that even when you go over the death count, you can still try to get to the next level with the Tarragrue chasing you down. This makes it still extremely punishing to hit your death count, but it’s not an immediate fail state: there’s still counterplay (even after you’d been 1 shot by the Tarragrue multiple times, you can still try to sneak past him to keep an especially juicy run alive).

I managed to cheese the Tarragrue two separate ways in the same run as a mage. The first is most definitely a bug: the Night Fae quest NPC (the fairy) had aggro of the Tarragrue and stopped taking damage at 1hp, which kept me in combat each time I tried to invis or shadowmeld to take the portal to the next floor. While it’s annoying for escort NPCs to die, I think the Tarragrue should be the one mob in the instance able to kill a quest NPC. The Night Fae was actually a very good tank, because after failing to break combat I decided to just try and nuke him when I remembered that I had the Frostchipper upgrade and could fish for 20% max HP procs with frostbolt.

The next floor I got the Art of the Blinkmage upgrade to combo with my previous Clouded Diamond so I suicided until he spawned again and managed to kill the Tarragrue a second time, but with no invincible quest NPC to tank him. Infinite mirror images means that you can infinitely kite the Tarragrue while fishing for Frostchipper procs to kill him.

I’m somewhat torn as to how I think a % HP upgrade should work against the Tarragrue. On the one hand, it’s a really interesting upgrade to use elsewhere in the run, so I wouldn’t want to see it converted to non-% HP damage as that’s the main thing that makes it interesting, but that just can’t work on the Tarragrue or it completely cheeses the main death punishment mechanic if you get a %-HP upgrade early in a run. I definitely think the Tarragrue “should” be killable, but it needs to be a ludicrously monumental feat, not a cheesy one achievable by a single upgrade. The only way I want to ever kill the Tarragrue is by getting soooo many upgrades that you somehow outscale his ridiculous HP pool with regular damage. And if you DO manage to kill the Tarragrue, he should respawn on the same floor faster and faster each time you kill him (and maybe get buffed with each new respawn?).

Availability/Entrance Gating

While I understand the desire to gate this behind Maw zone objectives, please consider only doing so for the core legendary upgrade process or for getting rewards. Let us play as much Torghast as we want even if it’s only for cosmetic rewards or XP (or nothing). One of the core features of a Rogue-lite is the ability to pick yourself up after a failed (or successful) run and just have another go. With all of the different upgrades you could see (or never encounter) in a given run, being able to replay this many times would reduce the sting of a loss due to unlucky upgrades.

In many rogue-lites, some runs can be over very quickly while others could take hours to complete. While I really enjoy the extremely long run in many rogue-lites (building very long and complex builds is the best part), I also really enjoy the ability to save and quit and return to the run later. It would be nice if something similar to the instance lock system we can use to extend lockouts for raids could be added to Torghast. Once you’ve started a run, you can leave and reenter from any level starting area, but if you reset instance before re-entering, you will start at the beginning again.

Leveling

One thing that would be absolutely amazing is if we could level alts with Torghast (just like we can for Island Expeditions and like it’s been described Covenants/Soulbinds will work for alts). Once a main unlocks Torghast, please let us bring alts into a lower difficulty lower reward version so we can level that way! I’ve already leveled ~6 times across the 4 classes that can currently queue for it just from playing Torghast on alpha!

My Favorite Builds So Far

Thorns Holy Priest - stacking 50% damage reflected after casting flash of light with holy reflect and max health upgrades, pull everything, then just flash of light while they kill themselves

“Arcane Mage” - stacking 100% off-spec damage, be fire or frost spec, then spam arcane explosion for that sweet bonus damage

Never Ending Meta DH - stack chance to not incur eye beam’s cooldown + demonic talent = eyebeam/meta forever

Arcane Mage Cheapshot - stacking 2000% increased arcane blast damage while invis: charged up > arcane power > invis > arcane blast = dead boss
Note: This trait doesn’t work if you Presence of Mind > Shadowmeld > Arcane Blast, but I feel like it should, because you’re breaking invisibility with an instant cast.

Shadow Word: Mawrat Pain - mawrat mount + can use mount in combat + stacking misc shadow word pain buffing spells = running around on a death rat spam casting vamp touch to leave nasty dots on everything

Demon Hunter Trainer: imprison charms instead of CCs - pick your favorite elite and bring them with you always

3 Likes

Should make him have a chance, like 33%-50%, to reflect damage spells/attacks back at the caster.

2 Likes

I haven’t read all the feedback so please excuse me if I am repeating a suggestion.
Love the tower - super fun. I know tuning is ongoing so won’t go into that.
My one suggestion is to allow unlimited play in the tower. It is randomly generated so there shouldn’t be a real way to ‘practice’ it.
As far as rewards - perhaps cap that with a key system - like you only get so many keys per week (or farmed if we must) to do a reward run. That way the run is set once you start it with a key (like mythic +) and you can’t keep resetting for a ‘best buff’ scenario.
The tower is great fun and I would hate to see it limited. I think plenty of people would enjoy just running it for fun when they are bored or perhaps for pets or transmog or something without the legendary rewards.

4 Likes

Went in a demon hunter today, tried “Twisting Halls: Easy (random)” difficulty.

It was very fun. I feel like Demon Hunter is close to the perfect class for running this kind of content.

I have 3 main points of feedback for Torghast in general:

Looting feels weird.

I know, that sounds silly to say about an MMO, but it does.

In Torghast, it feels like the more I can keep moving the better, and having to stop and loot the mobs - which only ever drop Phantasma and some silver - feels like it’s slowing me down and killing my momentum when it doesn’t have to.

It would feel a lot better if phantasma was just automatically added to your tally when you kill the mob, so you don’t have to stop and loot it, just like with the breakable items.

Skull traps.

A few things about these:

  1. The missile colors are confusing. Sometimes they’re black, which are obviously bad. But sometimes they’re pure white, which - since black and white are opposite colors - I intuitively assumed meant they’re good.
    But they’re not good. White missiles hurt just as much as black missiles. So why are they two different colors?
  2. The gaps in the missile barrage are not actually safe to run through. This may be due to latency on my end, but I never was able to time my passage to avoid taking damage, even though on my screen my character didn’t come close to touching any of the missiles.
    This leads to further confusion - if there are no safe gaps in the barrage, why does it look like there are? Just make it a permanent laser beam to more accurately convey that you will always take damage when running through it.
  3. The flame skull trap gives no visual indication to telegraph when it’s about to fire.
    Almost every other flame trap in the game does this to some extent, but not the ones in Torghast. This is a weird inconsistency that feels rather cheap.

Certain Anima powers can prevent you from progressing through later levels.

This is a big problem. The one in question that I ran into was the one that gives you 30% more primary stat, but prevents you from jumping.

This is a trap. Since there are later levels that require you to jump in order to get up a small gap in terrain and progress toward the exit, picking this power is basically a “you will run into an impassable wall” sentence.

That’s bad and not fun.

I encountered some bugs with level generation as well, but those will go in the bug report forum.

Overall, my first impression is that Torghast’ll be great fun, even though there are a few kinks to work out still (which is expected at this point) it feels like it’s going to be the best solo endgame content we’ve ever had!

3 Likes

I cleared normal, easy, and one of the quests on my frost mage. Some thoughts:

  1. It’s really fun and I can tell that, even in an early alpha state, a lot of thought when into the design. Vendor levels and breaking urns are nice destress/mental breaks and I really liked how meaningful you made the maw rats. The team really deserves credit for the level of polish evident even at this early-alpha state.

  2. Scaling, as has been noted a lot, definitely could use further tuning. As it stands right now, the first level is definitely the hardest part, which I imagine would make it hard to fairly reward players for progress once this makes it to live. In addition, since you start with no anima powers, the high level of early difficulty makes you more dependent on good RNG for your first anima powers, as you should hopefully revert to the mean as you acquire more. From a basic gameplay perspective, it definitely feels wrong to be more afraid of the first pack of trash or the first elite I face than the end boss of my run.

  3. Twelve floors (on normal) felt too long. I found my interest/enthusiasm peaking around floor 6-7. Fewer floors hopefully would also make each floor more meaningful.

  4. Would love to see some integration with professions, like using items found on a floor to cook food for a soul we come across during our climb, or mining through a collapsed wall crossing our path.

With this week’s update to the Shadowlands Alpha, testers will encounter a number of changes to Torghast:

  • Mounting has been disabled everywhere in Torghast.
    • Developers’ notes: This was a bug. We apologize for any misunderstanding it introduced. Our goal is for Maw Powers that grant movement abilities to be powerful, valuable choices. We feel that this is the way to continue building interest in moving around the space efficiently.
  • Priest Anima Powers which previously only affected Flash Heal now also affect Shadowmend. Several other existing Priest Anima Powers have also been adjusted.
  • The Tarragrue is tired of being bullied and has bolstered his defenses.
    • Developers’ note: Please continue trying to bully the Tarragrue.
  • Torghast escort NPC’s can now be stunned temporarily if they take too much damage.
  • Urns are now named Ashen Phylacteries.
  • Many bug fixes.
  • Many more bug fixes.
14 Likes

I’d like to add some feedback after the update to Torghast.

I started out in heroic as as usual and instantly noticed the enemy HP was way, way lower, about 50% lower. Also the damage was scaled up about 50%. I think this is an amazing change, since you can deal with enemies a lot easier now.

Some other that got changed and are neat,

  • New Anima Orb dropping Animation,
  • New Chain visual around followers,
  • Flameforge Enforcer Animations,
  • Shadowbolt Volley Animation,
  • New Lava Room,
  • Not being able to go to another floor when in combat,
  • Not getting as many Anima Orbs on the earlier floors (got about 8 in 3 floors).

Some bugs still present however,

  • The Tarragrue was able to completely ignore gates and walk through them,
  • New Lava Room with Rocks as a pathway is nearly impossible to traverse with Aetherium Weights (not being able to jump),
  • Guards bug out when stunning during accursed strength, stand still after they finish their cast after stun,
  • Mind controlled targets dying not giving phatasma,
  • Guardian Spirit still counting as two deaths.

You’re definitely going into the right direction with this Blizzard!

Just attempted heroic the last couple of hours - with both a Spriest (that I have mained previously) and VDH (which Ive never played before tonight). Most I got was floor 28 I think?

Settings look amazing, room layouts didn’t seem super varied (I came across the same starting room layout 3 times in a row - not sure if intended) but creatures were also nice and varied.

It’s hard to provide good feedback as I know this heroic mode won’t exist, so it’s difficult to judge in that way.

It just seemed way way overtuned. I could barely solo an elite mob on either char. I did like that this forced me to use otherwise underused abilities (MC, Shackle etc.), or trying to do MC>break MC>fade>MC combos etc. However mostly tackling an elite just led to me borking the run.

Twice I tried MCing a mob to attack the Tarrague and it DC’d me both times upon the mobs death.

There were also some mobs which seemed to keep bugging out at the top of stairs, like if I attacked them and just backed a little down the stairs they would just evade constantly but also not attack me? It was always an elite in the first floor of heroic this would happen to.

Can I suggest if you want to test this heroic mode that we maybe just start off with some generic powers so it’s not such a struggle? Even some stat % ones to get us to a level where we don’t need to use every CD for every pack to try to get through.

I do see awesome potential with this though - can’t wait to try out a proper full run.

Yeah, I think a better way of putting it is… the temporary powers are just not worth competing with the permanent ones in almost all situations, especially at the current tuning. Making them a separate type of anima reward item if you want to keep them, and putting three temporary powers all up against each other might be quite cool, especially if you could deliberately buy an orb for a random pick of three at any time like you can for current powers, and pop it right before a boss or other situation you know is going to be dangerous.

(the approach of making them ALL activate at your own discretion could always help a bit if Blizzard aren’t interested in two categories, of course. You might be able to do this already to an extent by minimizing the power choice? I tend to play things as if they’re for real when doing my initial test of something before trying to break it, so I should probably see how holding on to powers work and whether you can hold onto a choice with a temp power while still making any subsequent choices that come up after…)

The immunity is the only one I’ve ever felt like might situationally compete against a permanent power, and that’s only if you come across it when you know you’re about to hit your limit.

I think also this might be a good way to address concerns about how Torghast is currently tuned to give too many snowballing permanent anima power rewards- I was certainly noticing I’d taken most of the interesting anima power rewards already by the time I got to the twelfth floor soloing as a DH on easy- this way you’d still feel like you get a lot of cool gameplay rewards from seeking out anima powers, but it wouldn’t feel like you were absolutely snowballing just a little way through. I’ll have to try the harder options later to give more feedback on those though, but my overall impression so far is that the Vengeance powers are broadly good, (I can see that Meta one getting super annoying though, especially with stacking) and that player power seems to rapidly outstrip difficulty escalation. I’ll come back with further feedback on the ramp after trying the higher difficulties.

On another topic, would second feedback above about the swinging blade trap. Even seeing it swing, it’s hard to time avoiding it right due to the latency involved plus the lack of feedback: specifically the lack of indication of where it swings between swings, and the lack of sound effects during the swing. It would be nice if it put a subtle slice decal on the floor texture underneath it to solve the former, and I assume sound effects are in progress if possible.

1 Like

I feel like being able to mount felt appropriate in the larger outdoor platform looking areas; though it obviously wasn’t appropriate in the indoor hallway environments.

I guess it just seems like it’s unnecessarily inconvenient to be unable to mount in an area that feels as though it’s outdoors.

I haven’t experienced this first-hand – but I can definitely say that I’ve dodged some death counters by rushing the portal prior to getting walloped on heroic.

I’m not entirely against the suggestion that a player should be forced to face the boss prior to continuing to the next floor – but on Heroic some of the bosses felt impossible to kill prior to soft enrage mechanics building to unmanagable levels.

Probably more of a problem of gearscorel scaling more than anything else; still, it felt natural to have the option to advance, having skipped a boss which you’d found to be unmanagable, in the hope of finding some much needed powerups on the next floor so you can get on-top of the difficulty curve.

The furthest I’ve got on Heroic was floor 30 on two different characters. Since 30 was a boss level in each instance, I couldn’t advance floors because the boss was impossible to kill despite using 40% dmg increase pots and every other cooldown available to me; including spellsteal lumbering strength increase dmg by 50% for 5/6 seconds for loss of move speed.

He hit 10 stacks can’t be snared, u use mirror image, iceblock to drop threat and bounce him between you and pet and he still at like… somehwere between 15-30% when he finally bonk you.

The tower has been incredibly fun and I’m eager to see new classes become available to test.

My biggest thing I’d like to see is a way to speed up looting corpses of enemies you defeat. In the current state, reaching the later levels of heroic, enemies fall over and most of my time on each floor is spent running around making sure I’m looting every corpse and destroying every Phylactery. It gets to a point where I don’t bother looting and just want to move onto the next floor as fast as possible. This feeling could change based on other balance tuning in the tower.

Making it so enemies just automatically give the player their Phantasma when defeated is one way, but I think it would also be a neat Anima Power.

  • Anima Powers that let you automatically loot defeated enemies

  • Anima Powers that automatically destroy nearby Ashen Phylacteries

1 Like

I went in as a mage, which really isn’t my class at all. I thought I would die horribly and immediately, but it was a blast. I loved how I got more powerful as the enemies did, and I liked the art and overall ambience of the dungeon. Some more specific thoughts:

  • I agree with the comments that there should be more non-anima power loot. It would have been nice to come out of there with something other than memories of a good time.
  • I also agree that there should be some influence between Torghast and out of Torghast, or some benefit to running Torghast multiple times, other than just the fun of it.
  • I appreciated that line of sight wasn’t too picky. Otherwise, spells would have been a big issue on all those stairs.
  • I was glad nobody I encountered had a knockback!

All in all, I really enjoyed it.

1 Like

UPDATED April 29

Classes

  • Warriors now have Anima Powers available to them and can now access Torghast, Tower of the Damned.
  • Priests have received new Anima Powers.
  • Fixed an bug that allowed creative testers to play classes that weren’t quite ready for Torghast yet.

Areas

  • A new cell block, The Soulforges, is now available in Torghast. Speak to the Wayfinder to access it.
  • Flask-Torghast has also taken up residence in Revendreth’s Pridefall Hamlet.

Updates

  • Anima Cells have new Maw themed visuals.
  • The Anima Power “Bloating Fodder” should appear less often.
  • Maw Sentries and Maw Guards now disarm their opponents less often.
  • Fixed a bug in which the Random Portals floor caused portals to be a bit too random.

A note about testing during the last week’s Alpha, in which some testers were able to look at classes in Torghast that were incomplete:

Fortunately, most warrior abilities were in place and functional last week. Nonetheless, today’s new Alpha includes additional warrior powers and bugfixes.

On the other hand, there were testers who looked at shaman abilities that were a remnant of an internal Torghast prototype from over a year ago. While the spirit of some of those abilities may be seen in future shaman Anima Powers, no one should expect them to have survived intact.

Few things survive in Torghast.

Are Undead intentionally disabled like Kul Tirans and Worgen, or is this a bug?

Warrior feedback: The powers do feel impactful enough in terms of damage output, I find however they don’t have the same affect on gameplay compared to the mage and demon hunter ones. Something like Art of the Blinkmage, or combining reduced eye beam during metamorphosis anima with demonic talent for super long metamorphosis. I like stuff that completely changes the way I play, which I’m just not seeing much so far for the warrior.
EDIT: With further testing, I’m a bit more pleased. Cleared random normal mode, which let me see a lot more. The one that causes Recklessness, Avatar and Bladestorm to cast one of the other 3 is really cool, made those abilities feel way cooler and more powerful. Shattering Throw one shot and anima power spawn once per floor is actually sick. I still do want to see something really crazy like blinkmage though.

The power that resets charge or leap if it hits a mawrat was pretty cool (especially with the one that makes you do 200% more damage) if there’s any mawrats. But on some floors it might as well not exist.

Giving that one the blinkmage treatment would be bonkers.

2 Likes

Yeah I avoided it simply due to not all floors having mawrats.

I tried Torghast last week with DH, but I don’t have much experience with the class, so didn’t feel I had valid feedback. But now Warrior is there, so I am testing away. Nice mix of weirdness in the anima powers. Stat and Dmg boosts are nice, but I really like things like Shield Slam causing Whirlwind. Nice. I hope this stays tuned to the overpowered side. Collecting and stacking powers is fun. It appeals to the explorer in me. “What if my char could do this crazy thing?”

One minor suggestion: The latest Anima blob graphics are a bit hard to see. Add some more red to the mix would be great.

1 Like

Rising Heat is a frustrating debuff and I seriously hope this is not a test of adding soft timers to Torghast. This feeling of being rushed through my dungeon run is exactly the very thing that makes me LOATHE Horrific Visions. Please reconsider debuffs and soft timers like this. There are MANY ways you can make Torghast challenging WITHOUT being TIMED.

2 Likes