I could see something like that. Gain stacks as you kill enemies, and the stacks drop off at a rate of 1 stack per 10-15 seconds outside of combat, something like that. Thus, you’re incentivized to want to keep going, but its not crucial to do so.
I agree the Torments either hurt or do nothing, and are like taking a shotgun to the whole thing when a sniper shot would do.
I think we need to go back to the per-floor idea and use that basic mechanism.
- A timer that ONLY runs when out of Combat AND the specific debuffs are active.
- Said timer triggers the Terragrue, not a failure
- Timer resets each floor
- You can buy time with anima (like buying deaths).
IMO this would work because it isn’t affecting people who don’t do the stated behavior in any way. Don’t punish people who are not doing the things you don’t want them to do, period. It is simple, and easy to understand. It isn’t catastrophic if you fail to meet the above criteria, and it will not unduly hamper people in harder levels who need more time and CDs to push farther.
It also meets their original assertion that they did not want Torghast to feel like a timed event.
A timer Grue could mean failure on a number of floor layouts.
Some of the portal floors have very few mobs but lots of running/porting around. They also sometimes have portals that zap you back to the start if you pick wrong.
Likewise, some floors have branching pathways, where one leads to the exit and the other to a sidequest. If you clear to near the end then have to backtrack to the other branch, you’re going to spend a lot of time out of combat. And if time runs out on your way back from the dead end branch, you might have an angry Grue between you and the exit.
And, like the mob spawning torments, It also means you’re pretty much done if you have to go afk for some reason.
I don’t see how this would improve anything. Instead of torments that don’t do much you get a timer that triggers the Terragrue - how is more pressure a good thing?
A Lack of Depth in the Anima Power System
I’ve played a bunch of Destruction Warlock and Beast Mastery Hunter in Torghast and it feels like I’m making the same build everytime that I do a Torghast run. It feels like Torghast is trying to provide an experience similar to games like Slay the Spire or Hearthstone’s Dungeon Run. What makes those games interesting is that there are a lot of different ways to build your run based on the choices that you make.
There are a huge number of anima powers that I’ve seen, but most of them are really just functioning as a “damage effectiveness +1” modifier that are always good. This means that it doesn’t really matter what choices you make – as long as you’re regularly taking the abilities that increase damage you eventually get to the point where you’ve stacked so many of those modifiers that you’re unstoppable. And while that’s fun, it doesn’t have much depth because you always end up in the same spot as far as what your build is doing, regardless of which powers you picked.
The reason that Slay the Spire and HS Dungeon Run have varied builds is that they offer you choices that aren’t necessarily good by themselves, but which combo with other abilities. And once you’ve built enough of a combo, the synergy of that combo is what it makes good, rather than the power of any individual ability.
From what I’ve seen Destruction Warlocks two combos (one of which is Kyrian Covenant only) while BM Hunters only have one combo. Part of the problem with the combos right now is that its impossible to actually build them and just having one or two combos per spec isn’t anywhere enough.
The Problem of too Many Powers
There are a huge number of anima powers in Torghast, so much so that its fairly rare to get the same power more than 2 or 3 times. But the combos that are in right now (and I think any combo that works with the current anima power system) require you to get 5+ copies of multiple different anima powers before the combo gets good.
HS Dungeon Run has a similar problem – where you need to get multiple combo pieces but only have a dozen or less opportunities to pick combo pieces. The way that HS solves this problem is by making it so that once you pick a combo piece it becomes more likely that you will be offered a combo piece in the future.
It would be nice if Torghast had a similar system – IE, the rightmost anima power option always has a 33% chance to contain a piece for a combo that you’ve already started. Something like that would make it so that the combos are actually buildable.
Not Enough Combos
Right now the focus of the vast majority of anima powers appears to be to just make you stronger in every possible circumstance, rather than being a combo piece that you can build off of - which is the ultimate cause of the lack of depth. That limits Torghast’s replayable, and could be improved by changing the focus of the anima power system to providing you with combo pieces to build off of. To show you the kind of combos that I’d like to see I’ve prepared 3 sample combos with powers:
Rain of Incineration (Destro Warlock)
This combo works by allowing Incinerate to supercharge Rain of Fire, turning Rain of Fire into a powerful nuke. All powers except Fire Lines stack.
Gain the Fire and Brimstone talent. If you already have this talent, pick another
Targets hit by your Incinerate explode, dealing a small amount of damage to all enemies within 10 yards.
-Rain of Incineration
Enemies struck by your Rain of Fire have a 20% chance to also be struck by Incinerate
-Reign of Fire
25% of the damage dealt by your Incinerate and Flame Burst anima power is added to each of the periodic damage ticks of your next Rain of Fire.
-Shadows of Xerrath
Your Incinerate now generates 50% more soul shards
-Echoes of Xoroth
Your Incinerate now deals 50% more damage
Soul Burst (Destro Warlock)
This combo works by draining the Soul Leach shield effect to buff the damage of Conflagrate. With enough power investment, the Warlock can spam Conflagrate due to the effective cooldown reduction provided by Flash Fire and Pyrehail. All powers except Soul Burst and Flash Fire stack.
Your Conflagrate now drains your Soul Leach absorb effect, dealing additional damage equal to the amount of absorb drained
Your Conflagrate charges now cool down simultaneously
Your Conflagrate gains an additional charge
Your Soul Leach effect now absorbs an additional 15% of your damage dealt, up to an additional 15% of your maximum health. Your Chaos Bolt now deals 15% less damage.
10% of the damage dealt by your Conflagrate is added to your pet’s next basic attack
100% of the damage dealt by your pet is added to your Soul Leach shield
“BM” Vomit Hunter (BM Hunter)
This combo works by turning Intimidation into a nuke while buffing the pet’s autoattack. All powers stack.
-The Blightcaller’s Baked Beans
Your pet deals bonus nature damage on every fifth basic attack
Your Intimidate causes your pet to immediately proc an additional instance of your Blightcaller’s Baked Beans effect.
Your Frenzy effect can now stack an additional time
-Frothing at the Mouth
Your Pet’s critical hits reduce the cooldown of Intimidation by 5 seconds.
All classes now have Anima Powers and can venture into Torghast.
Many classes have received new Anima Powers that affect their Covenant Class abilities.
Torments no longer scale with time.
Torments are now additional challenges based on the floor types you have encountered on this run.
- Developers’ notes: We’ve heard your feedback that Torments were adding too much time pressure. The Jailer may still torment you on higher levels of Torghast, but Torments will not scale with time.
Breath of Coldheart now increases the health of enemy monsters by a flat percentage based on the number of Coldheart Interstitia floors climbed.
Mort’regar’s Echoes now increase the Magic damage enemy monsters inflict by a flat percentage based on the number of Mort’regar floors climbed.
Might of the Upper Reaches now increases the Physical damage enemy monsters inflict by a flat percentage based on the number of Upper Reaches floors climbed.
- Developers’ notes: The changes above were inspired by feedback that Torments that reduce your power feel worse than torments that affect your enemies. As always, we will continue to tune and keep a close eye on difficulty.
Rewards and Access
Legendary materials now only drop from cell block runs, not from the Twisting Corridors.
- Developers’ notes: Looting a Resonating Chest may generate a message that says that you have received “extra rewards” for a “prompt completion”. This is an artifact from a previous design that has since been removed, and can be ignored.
Chests in the Twisting Corridors now drop Twisted Dust, which will be used for cosmetic rewards.
Portals to the six cell blocks (not the Twisting Corridors) now take you to fully-randomized 6-block runs, rather than the pre-set quest run. This includes a Wayfinder on floor 1 that allows you to choose your difficulty.
Two of Torghast’s six cell blocks are open per week. For testing purposes, the available blocks will change daily. They will change weekly in the final version of the game.
Access to the Twisting Corridors will always be available in addition to the two theme blocks.
- Developers’ notes: Players who seek Legendary materials alone can do so in Torghast’s cell blocks, and can earn more materials by climbing higher. Players who are looking for cosmetics, or who simply want to play without pressure, can do so in the Twisting Corridors.
- This build includes many bug fixes. Thank you very much for your bug reports!
- Remember: Alpha is alpha. Things will still change, especially rewards, tuning, and Torghast’s interaction with outside systems.
- We really appreciate all of your testing and feedback.
This is bizarre why even add these, you could just do this behind the scenes.
Doing this transparently is a good thing. Handling it all behind the scenes would lead to confusion and false-alarm bug reports if a given floor number was more or less difficult depending on if it was skipped to.
It also allows the difficulty scaling to be a bit different depending on the zone. I’d much rather these which don’t impact your time but still up the difficulty.
how are you going to be able to skip a floor - I thought that was just a testing thing.
One of those is basically add 5% extra health each floor, the mobs already are harder each floor, how is that different? The mobs already do more damage as you progress.
I think they just overcomplicate this game for no good reason.
You know I would really like to test these changes but why the heck did you eliminate the ability to play druids on alliance. I have been running druids through those and all of a sudden both night elves and worgen are locked. And since worgen has been locked for weeks already, it is very likely night elves won’t be playable again for weeks.
Well I guess I could play the kul tiran druids - forgot about them. At that point though I think I would rather just make a horde druid. Got d/c making a troll druid - guess no druids for me.
I’m really confused by this.
The stated design intent of Torments was to gently nudge the player forward, to ensure that they feel a slight pressure to continue moving forward, rather than waiting for major cooldowns. While I didn’t agree with how Torments were implemented, I could understand the design goal. The idea of preventing Torghast meta from devolving into multi-hour runs waiting on Bloodlust for trash packs makes sense.
The updates completely throw that out the window. If the Torments don’t scale with time on floor, they have ZERO impact on waiting for cooldowns. Why do they still exist if that is the case?
Further, this update takes the least disruptive ones and removes the timer, but (apparently) does nothing to mitigate the Torments that simply kill you for going AFK. I ran with Fracturing Forces and timed the Shadestalker spawn. First spawn was just over one minute. I used Feign Death, watched it despawn, got into combat with another enemy, timed it again, and a Shadestalker spawned within 4 seconds. Wanting to see how quickly the Shadestalkers can kill you, I stood there and did not fight back. Total time between leaving combat and being killed was just 28 seconds. I released spirit and waited for another Shadestalker spawn, about 30 seconds. This is incredibly punitive for players who may need to AFK mid floor for any reason, and will completely kill the content for me, and I expect for others who may have urgent and unpredictable short AFKs, like to soothe a crying child at night, to use the bathroom, to answer the door, etc.
On another run, with Eye of Skoldus, I again timed the add spawns. 1:01 from leaving combat to add spawn, dead by 1:24.
Soulforge Heat has a different issue - as out of combat health regen is roughly 3% per 5 seconds, simply sitting AFK is no threat. Even if you get knocked down as low as 2% health, if you can break combat, you can sit in a corner and regen to full if you wait long enough. The problem is that the DoT continues to tick in combat, while you don’t have that passive regen. That makes this Torment actively slow your progress, as you need to eat more frequently and for longer than you otherwise would. Past the 3rd floor, going AFK for ~2 minutes or less will kill you outright, even from full health.
What is the design goal of these Torments, and do the developers think they are being achieved? Breath of Coldheart, Mort’regar’s Echoes, and Might of the Upper Reaches no longer “gently nudge you” at all, as there is no timed component. Fracturing Forces and Eye of Skoldus actively kill you if you need to AFK for any amount of time. Soulforge Heat annoys you and slows down runs at low stacks, and actively kills you if you need to AFK at high stacks. ALL of this is completely contrary to the stated goals from this post earlier in the thread:
Moving off of Torments:
Based on earlier previews and blog posts, Torghast was intended to be power progression, easily capped on a weekly basis, with no more investment than the player finds fun and engaging required. Comparisons were drawn to Valor and Conquest caps.
How does incentivizing pushing ever higher floors with additional Legendary progression fit within that design goal? I can understand rewarding players for their hard work, but the entire stated purpose of the Torment system was to prevent players from feeling like the best way to play was to sit around in Torghast all day waiting on cooldowns so you can push one floor higher. With that in mind, how is rewarding additional Legendary materials for higher floors not completely contrary to that design goal? Especially given the recent Torment changes making waiting around a complete non-issue (provided you are waiting around while physically sitting at your computer) I have no understanding of how this system is supposed to work. It seems like you will be penalized relative to more hardcore players if you can’t sit in Torghast for absurdly long stretches of time, pushing floors well above what your gear level would allow under normal play conditions.
Edit: Sorry for the wall of text.
TL;DR - Torments make no sense, don’t achieve the stated goals, and I only notice them when they annoy me or kill me for being AFK.
Wowhead indicated there were bonuses for prompt completion, then removed that but I just did one and I got bonus loot.
I actually don’t understand what the point of the Torments are either now to be honest, although in my 6 floor run I didn’t notice any (might have missed it though) so maybe this only happens at the high levels again. I hope so.
I also didn’t notice where you change the difficulty so if this is going to go into the game like this, maybe you need to make it more obvious.
oh nvm missed this part.
I am really glad you appear to be keeping the 6 floor design because that is just about all I want to do in there in a session. I can’t see myself ever doing that endless mode.
I had the same thing. I did actually get bonus loot - the [PH] Twisted Dust x5 dropped twice from the same chest.
Worth noting I took my time and full cleared the whole wing and still got the bonus loot (and the corresponding message).
They kick in at Floor 13 or higher, same as before.
When you zone in to Twisting Corridors, there should be a floating orb called a Wayfinder next to you. Clicking that will allow you to start on Floor 7, 13, 19, etc, depending on how far you have cleared. You must have cleared 6 to start on 7, etc.
Yes I got bonus loot as well. And okay I just can’t stand that endless so I never go into there so I guess the difficulty is only for that mode.
Actually it is supposed to be for the 6 floor mode according to this, so it must be there somewhere and I just missed it.
FYI - The “bonus loot” mechanic was mistakenly left in.
The text you see when you loot it is a hold over from an internal idea they had that was ultimately scrapped. It was not removed in time for this build, but it can safely be ignored. Therefor there is no incentive/pressure to finish the floor within any sort of time frame, as Blizzard said would be their design goal @ Blizzcon.
The changes to the Torments (minus the mob spawning ones) are great changes towards this idea. They removed the time element from them and simply made it buff the mobs vs debuffing your character on a floor by floor basis, which feels a lot better for the player. It also adds a different difficulty curve to watch out for on a per-level basis, depending on the buff and the mobs on that floor. This could provide a unique challenge other than “mobs get tougher the higher you go”.
If you get rid of the timed mob spawn Torments, you will have the ideal system where you can take breaks at any point in a run and not feel pressured to do anything more than what you want.
To clarify the other big change: Twisting Corridors are the 18-floor runs we have been mainly completing so far in Alpha. This is open to run as much as you want (unsure on any key requirement, but from the post it could hint that they are removing requiring a key to run this). Chests in the Twisting Corridors now drop Twisted Dust, which will be used for cosmetic rewards from a vendor. Cell Blocks are separate 6-floor runs that are locked to completing once during their rotation. There are 6 different cell blocks, of which 2 will be open at a time. These runs will drop your legendary essences that can be used to craft your legendary equipment.
(Edit:) Both types of runs also scale with difficulty linearly (akin to M+ mob scaling). Additionally, Torments don’t “activate” until floor 13. So for example, you could get Torments in your first Twisting Corridors run starting on floor 13, but for your Cell Block runs that will be limited and provide your legendary rewards, you would have to progress through the same Cell Block twice (Floor 1 -> 6, 7 ->12) before you could start again on floor 13 and see Torments.
In short, you now have two separate Torghast Tower runs: Twisting Corridors as a Cosmetic-Only experience (18 floors at a time), and your twice-weekly Cell Block clears that award legendary essence (6 floors at a time). With both you can start at higher levels for larger quantities of loot after reaching the higher floors through a previous run, of which Torments start at floor 13.
All of this are GREAT changes for the Torghast experience, as you can complete your weekly legendary grinds quickly (only 6 floors) if you dislike the experience, and can grind out cosmetic rewards if you do.
I actually don’t agree. I liked how you could avoid getting those before and now it appears you get them regardless.
If this is true then they have NOT solved my concerns at all. I didn’t want torments changed for difficulty or because they “add pressure” the whole thing about my complaint was exactly this. Life happens. In solo play, we should be allowed to walk away from keyboard. In my life, I have to do this very often, sometimes for long periods of time. I do not want a torghast run ruined because I had to help my mother get into the bathtub. That kind of design in my opinion is short sighted and uncaring. There need to be ZERO punishments for having to go afk (within reason of course, obviously if you pull a pack of mobs you can’t go afk til that pack is dead, but common sense application here).
This. Again, I cannot stress how much this wil RUIN Torghast for players who have a difficult time being able to sit at computer for long periods of time without IRL interruptions. Many of us have given up group content like dungeons and raids because obviously some situations we can’t expect blilzzard (or other players) to wait on our life afks. However, Solo content should never ever be taken away from players because “reasons”
Is 15 minutes a long period of time? It typically takes less than that to do a floor from my experience and you get can take a break at the start of every floor.
If you’ve read any of my posts you know that the point is anything can happen. If someone comes to the door, your baby starts crying, your elderly mother shouts “I’ve fallen, can you help me up” should someone in Torghast be like “give me 10 more minutes, I need to get to the checkpoint on next floor”
Before you even return “Ok well, that run failed, but that isn’t going to be the norm”. For some of us, that is the norm, every hour of every day. Don’t apply your situation to someone elses. Consider everyones IRL needs and responsiblities when talking about game design.
life happens, and for an experience that is supposed to be SOLO friendly that should be respected. In a group run someone can cover for you in torghast. In a solo run you’ll come back to run being over, not because you failed as a player but because life happened. That is key point here. YOU did not fail, the game design did. Punish us for failing at the content, not for life happening.