FEEDBACK: Timeworn Keystones

Azerite gear / essences should probably be disabled while in the dungeon

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Ignoring the second post because the dungeons are scaling up, not us scaling down (making the point of azerite moot).

+15 BrH - Tyranical/Bursting/Volcanic/Infernal

TLDR - This felt harder than the +18 that I did, by a pretty wide margin. We couldn’t complete, but in terms of the amount of damage I was taking I was averaging 8.6k HPS, with a +15 dungeon in SL I would average 4.6 to 5.7k or so average.

If anything, I would say these are overtuned by the 30-35% margin if we were to compare it to a live +15 dungeon.

Several of the trash abilities, that target other party members are extremely close if not one shots, especially that cat after the first boss which instantly killed people. All of the trash feels like it has about 30% more HP than it should, and felt like it had health ranges of a 17 fortified for the DPS the group was pulling.

Notables -

The first bosses soul burst did 86k to myself while within AMZ with 0 spirits absorbed, and instantly killed everyone but me and the hunter that immuned it. The boss otherwise is completely void of mechanics that we managed to get the healer up and finish it anyway.

For a reference point, that unmitaged would have done about 105k to myself if you removed tank modifiers, making it 100% unlivable otherwise.

The large spider going up the stairs applied it’s DoT extremely fast, maybe faster than we I remember and was ticking for 15k, despite the tooltip stating it should have only been 6k.

The knife dances instantly did 30% of the groups health in damage, and needed stunned instantly. The double pull, everyone but me died and I managed to survive through it and we only ended up killing the pack because I kited while the rest of the group ran back.

The arcane circles from the elemental does lethal damage and instantly killed people.

The 2nd boss (where we stopped), the Vengeful Shear did 76974 damage through 7295 absorb shield. This is 85k damage roughly on a DK, that comes in rather frequently that can not be cooldowned through every one. Given that I’m 246 and flasked, I lived this. However, that’s an instant one shot for someone who’s at gear for a 15. The fel rush and blazing trails also dealt instant damage, the floor was ticking the demon hunter for 29919 damage, and the felrush damage itself did another 18294 damage, this was an instant one shot to the group.

The lieutenants, is like killing a lieutenant with about 3-5 fairly consistent swarming adds which contained casters that did not immediately come ontop of the lieutenant. We did not pull this with the first boss like the tooltip states would happen, but if we did I feel like that would have been impossible with the amount of health and damage that does.

Eh, I’m not sure I would use the word moot given some of the essences are still super powerful today (VoP, Lucid Dreams)

Are there any plans to fix all the snap spots, terrain skips, whatever else what were pretty common these dungeons?

While it has been a bit tricky finding people to do Legion M+ keys on the PTR, the few that I’ve done definitely feel a bit overtuned in terms of damage dealt. I mainly did +10’s just to get a feel for the dungeons again, and found that damage taken in dungeons like Court of Stars felt noticeably harder hitting than I expected, almost to the point of probably a +14/+15 ish dungeon on live servers. This was definitely just ‘by feel’ so I can’t say how truly accurate that comparison is, but the damage output seemed considerably higher.

Other than that, the Infernal +10 affix is a bit underwhelming and didn’t feel like it added much of anything to the dungeon. Having a portal you click on to spawn the enemy just feels really rushed (which I entirely understand if it is an early implementation of the affix just so we can test the add mechanics), but there is very little information about these opponents.
Do we get buffs for defeating them? (I couldn’t tell and didn’t notice anything special happen)
Do we get penalized for skipping them? (Of the three keys I did, we killed them every time) IE. Do they show up on the last boss like an Awakened opponent from Season 4 BFA or something?

I feel there should be some incentive for defeating these opponents, rather than ‘oh if you don’t they’ll make the last boss annoying’, since this effect has already been used in Shadowlands Season 2 anyhow.

And I guess not quite related to feedback on the keystones, but it seems really unreasonable/a wasted opportunity to not make these available MUCH more often than the expected Timewalking rotation we go through. It’d be nice to see a more condensed format for timewalking, definitely as a weekly event to coincide with other calendar events we have as options. Really it’d just be super frustrating if Legion Timewalking M+ events falls on bad times in the year, like right before an M+ season ends, negating any meaningful benefit you might get out of farming a really good/cool old trinket since then the next season would come around which would include item level increases/immediately making your Legion x/y/z cool item irrelevant since you’d then have to wait another X months for Legion TW to come around again.

I hope that wasn’t too messy of a read and that the feedback is helpful, have a good day.

Our upcoming PTR build will include tuning adjustments intended to reduce the difficulty of these dungeons by approximately 3 keystone levels. While there’s still work to do, we expect they should now feel closer to their Shadowlands counterparts at a given key level.

To answer some questions above:

  • Azerite gear/essences functioning in these dungeons was a bug. It should be fixed now, but please let us know if you see anything unusual.
  • We’re not looking to drastically change the feel of dungeons or available strategies, but we’re open to changing some things to better match modern player expectations or improve the feel of the dungeon, such as active mitigation mechanics. Snapping fixes could be part of that.
  • If an Infernal beacon is not activated, it will activate automatically when the boss close to it is engaged. The main goal here is flexibility and allowing for bold strategic choices to save time, but a more clear “upside” is something we’ve discussed as a possibility.

Thank you!

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Thanks a lot for explaining the thought process/design intentions going forward. I am glad to see I wasn’t the only one who thought the keys seemed a bit higher tuned than the equivalent rating in Shadowlands M+. Greatly appreciate the explanation behind the Infernal Beacons, I may have just missed it in the keystones I did but having some sort of in-game talking head popup that gives a heads-up/warning about what will trigger them would probably be a good touch, similar to how The Primus warns of the mawsworn in Tormented affix keys. Some form of Buff/Benefit for defeating them would be nice (outside of just saving some time due to chain-pulling with boss), but I understand not wanting to change the way Legion keys felt too much. Some middle-ground might be a cool thing to experiment with, though.

Edit/Addition: I guess as a side note for minor benefit/buff ideas:
Maybe killing the Infernal add resets major cooldowns/gives a cooldown recovery % bonus, which could incentivize either pulling the Infernal with a boss and killing it part-way through the encounter to get a nice bump up in throughput in a fight, or for people who want to play it safe they can deal with the Infernal add and not be punished too heavily if they needed to use cooldowns on it.

That way, it’d be a pretty non-invasive bonus while offering different ways to go about handling the affix based on proficiency/skill of the group. Just a thought. ^^ Thanks again!

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“Azerite gear/essences functioning in these dungeons was a bug”
It’s not Timewalking without legacy gear enabled. Why must you kill this fun for us?

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Quite ridiculous that we won’t be able to use essences/Azerite gear. My interest in this has effectively been reduced to 0. Good job!

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Same, but only reduced by 90%. I will likely still try it, but I was really planning on farming 20 of these every timewalking week.

Its cool. I’ve come to expect things like this from blizzard. It’s a symptom of the constantly revolving dev team; a seeming contempt for any past projects/systems that A. are better than the current systems or B. make it obvious the current systems are just reiterations of past systems.

It’s like Egyptian pharaohs and their tendency to deconstruct monuments from dynasties/rulers that proceeded them. Or like ISIL’s obsession with the destruction of monuments/cultural sites; just pure belligerence…

Or if you like - “fun detected; fun removed”. All because someone might notice someone else topping the dps chart and then, god forbid, feel the need to farm previous content. Can’t have that now can we? Despite the glaring content drought that plagues shadowlands at the moment.

If you’re worried about forcing ppl to grind, the solution is simple: make it cheaper and easier to buy essences from Mother with Echoes. I can’t imagine it would take more than a few hours to remove purchase restrictions & make essences cheaper.

I can’t imagine it would take more than a few hours otherwise… to farm for essences or a total of 3-4 pieces of gear, buts that’s just me. I actually enjoy playing wow.

I remember when you had to farm for a full set of timewalking gear; legendary weapons, gem slotted gear, tier pieces, proc trinkets and then fully gem/enchant the entire shebang… but whatever. That was just fun and then you actually got to enjoy your hard work.

Blizz is slowly pushing for a game where the only difference between this player and that player will be transmog… oh wait nvm.

They aren’t killing your fun. There are plenty of content types where Azerite and Essences will work like the random Legion Timewalking Dungeon queue. This will still be there and work like the ones for WoD, MoP, etc.

Legion M+ will be a competitive environment that will be very prone to gatekeeping. It’s better that they keep Azerite and Essences out of it.

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No it’s not

Is this talking about azurite in timewalks themselves or M+? Poor clarification there. I figured the azurite neck is still better then my shadowlands neck, this wouldnt surprise me, but if they’re fun-policing my regular timewalks/raids, tell me so I can drop my sub.

One other question I have is – what is the plan for the effects that were level capped at the end of Legion like the Court of Stars ring? If it was unlevel capped, then the ring would become insanely desirable. Is the plan to keep them level capped?

if players want to play in their Shadowlands Gear go ahead, if they want to farm azerite gear go ahead, if you want for farm Shadowmourne for WoLtLK time go ahead. If it gives someone an advantage that everyone is capable of getting then let it stay in the game. stop calling the fun police because a casual player may shine for 4-5 weeks out of the year in timewalking. Are you worried they may get some gear and replace you in your raid for crying out loud it is timewalking and for the record Azerite armor has worked in all the other timewalking why stop now. If people want to make timewalking sets then let them it is not hurting anyone.

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I’ll comment on this one after testing a few more dungeons.

The Infernal Beacons need to be heavily changed if they’re intended to be pulled with the boss, there are several that have area of denial that occur during the boss mechanics, or mandatory soaks/moves that prevent the meteor soaks making even pulling the lieutenants that spawn completely RNG if you can kill the boss or not.

This is shown probably at it’s worst in Court of Stars, where the soaks will force you to spawn imps on the second boss in area’s that can not be AoE’d down, and from the first boss where the area of denial from the arc slash will outright prevent you from being able to soak. Where as in other dungeons, you can get a tank buster from the boss itself ontop of a heavy hitting dot or mini tank buster combination that will destroy a tank in Vault of the Wardens.

I can explain this better using my paladin than my DK.

My Paladin specced protection has 51,000 HP at 205 itemlevel (it’s my old main from 8.3 and a bit of 9.0). Equiping the HoA in Orgrimar because it activates not only the essences but the stamina nodes boosts my health up to 64000.

Most notably, VoP however drops Avenging Wrath down to a 1:31 cooldown because the minor effect works, and I get a pretty significant amount of damage.

People weren’t using Azerite gear because the opportunity cost was too high, but the HoA was giving you about 20% more survivability and about 30-40% more damage. It’s last expansion content being virtually required for current expansion content.

Edit with that said - While not related to this topic I’m hoping blizzard has the foresight to also disable the HoA and azerite essences (in the event there’s one I’m missing that’s so overpowered you take the stam/itemization hit anyway) for the purposes of the mage tower?

Azerite Gear and Essences not working in Legion Dungeons is literally the complete opposite of what you’ve done with Legendaries in previous expansion Dungeons.