Hammers have felt thematic to paladin for me since divine storm and hammer of wrath came about. Hammer of Wrath is at least imo one of the most iconic paladin abilities in the game, maybe one of the most iconic abilities in general. Class discord is even named after it, and even people who are paladin mains and stream (like towelliee on twitch being hammer squad) have named their communities around that theme. “Big dam judge” is another one, judge being a big holy hammer.
I do think swords can be iconic for paladins too like when you think of Turalyon but in WoW overall hammers have been a staple of paladin, especially ret paladin.
If you have followed up with this thread, a lot of these points have been mentioned already. But here is my best up-to-date list of all possible reasons showcasing why Swords are rightly, the proper Templar thematic choice! And, why Hammers are wrong!
This is all in the spirit of good fun.
The General Paladin Icon/Theme is already on Hammers. Templar, by definition as a Hero Spec, should aim to fulfil a unique twist on that Class Fantasy theme.
Templar’s current Hero Spec description and choice of a Hammer-theme, would be 100% indistinguishable from rather a Vanquisher or Vindicator theme. Evidence that creative change is needed for this version of the Hero Spec.
The Keystone Templar talent, Light’s Guidance, triggers from Wake of Ashes/Eye of Tyr. Both abilities originate from our Legion Artifact Weapons. Both of which again, The Ashbringer and Truthguard, are primarily Sword-based models.
On the topic of our Legion Artifact Weapons, only Holy Paladins primarily used the Hammer model. Templar is of course, the bridge between Protection & Retribution Paladins.
Furthermore, just to reference, Lightsmith is a bridge between Holy and Protection Paladins. Lightsmith already uses a Hammer model in its theme.
The first Retribution Spec talent, is Blade of Justice.
Righteous Cause, another Retribution Spec talent, has a Sword ability icon and augments Templar’s Verdict, giving it the chance to reset Blade of Justice.
Templar Strikes, the newest added Retribution active ability press via their Spec talents, is Sword-themed with a Sword-themed icon.
Templar Slash from that same ability combo, is also a Sword-themed ability with a Sword-themed icon.
Both Templar Strike and Templar Slash’sSword-themed ability icon graphics, are specifically of The Ashbringer. Further tying back into Wake of Ashes which triggers our Keystone talent, Light’s Guidance.
The final Retribution talent of mention, Blades of Light, turns all of our abilites (including those Hammer-themed ones) into Holystrike damage.
Templar’s current Hero Spec description mentions that we use combinations of Physical and Holy attacks (Holystrike).
Go to WowPedia and search for Templar. The 2 images they showcase for Templar Paladins just so happen to both be wielding Swords!
Templar will undoubtably always draw some name relation to the historical Knights Templar. Go Google Knights Templar and view images. Every image showcases them with Swords except 1.
And finally, but certainly not least…
The opinions of many in this feedback thread alone!
Even the most recent comment…
Now, this is with me actually turning logic off and switching to my own personal opinion.
Turalyon, in my opinion, should be our live, World of Warcraft in-game reference point for Templar’s Class Fantasy & Theme!
Hero Specs are supposed to be fun, new, exciting class fantasies to explore. If Templar were to go live with Hammers as its leading theme, how could it realistically be possible to hit the mark on any of those goals?
To throw my two cents in; I’ve always felt Ret was actually more sword/blade focused and prot and holy were hammer/mixed based. I don’t remember seeing a lot of Ret paladins using 2h hammers, even before Legion introduced Ashbringer. I always remembered the 2h hammers, specifically, being healer weapons for holy, rather than dps weapons, and prot always used a mix of our three 1h weapon types. Then they started adding “blade” specific spells like Blade of Justice, which I felt they did because they knew Ret used hammers less. But back then you could also glyph judgment to use a sword, and I think even Hammer of Wrath could have a sword animation but I could be wrong about that one. So we’ve always been a bit of a mixed melee weapon user. That’s why I don’t really mind either way if the hero spec has hammers or swords.
I kinda feel like he should be our in-game reference point for Lightsmith, as he uses the power of the Light to create half of his sword, and he is directly linked to the Lightsworn Draenei, who are the characters most closely associated with the term Lightsmith.
For Templar, I actually would put forth Tirion Fordring as the character whom we should look at for inspiration. He is dead, though, so maybe Arator? Or Liadrin?
That’s a really fair point. I could see Turaylon being a good in-game reference point for Lightsmith as well since he literally does create half of his sword with the power of the Light. He could really be a good candidate for either Hero Spec. Maybe he is the first official Lightsmith Templar
I keep thinking about using Tirion but ultimately didn’t choose him primarily because of his Highlord title and death. He gives me a mix of Crusader/Templar fantasy vibes. I of course would have no issues whatsoever with him being our in-game reference point though.
Arator is a very interesting character. His title, redeemer, and his redeemer leap ability are definitely unique. He seems to also lean into the Crusader theme vibe for me but he is also sort of giving me a Herald of the Sun theme vibe. Even though I have no concrete reasoning to back that feeling up.
You know what, I really like this suggestion too. Liadrin is often depicted with a Sword and Shield as well which makes logical & thematic sense for Templar as it bridges Prot/Ret Paladins. Also did you see that Hearthstone cinematic where she attacks Arthas? That’s about as close to screaming Templar as you can get for me.
I would say my final lineup call in order, for who should be our in-game reference point(s) for Templars would be…
It never felt thematically accurate to have the animation for Blade of Justice come out from the ground. It should have always instead been a Blade from above coming down on the target if it was going to exist in-game over Exorcism in my opinion.
charge gameplay without a way to generate free charges (like art of war for boj) are useless. you’re only gonna have the extra charge of wake during your opener and thats it. like how the judgement charge talent sees no play unless you have large amounts of downtime. this downtime would be impossible with wake of ashes
Arator (just because he’s a newer character and doesn’t have as much fleshed out lore)
I’m starting to realize that we don’t have nearly as many concrete, influential lore figures as I originally thought. Uther, Tirion, Turalyon, Liadrin, Arator, Yrel, Maraad, Lothraxion… and those last three are only there because I was reading the wowpedia page for paladins when I replied last time, otherwise I’d have forgotten their names too. I can’t remember any other named paladins (who are still paladins).
I think this could be an interesting direction to take his character in, and have him lean into the sun and fire theme that Sunwalkers portray. Turalyon wields physical Light, Alleria wields Darkness (which supposedly comes from the depths of space, if I’m not mistaken), and Arator wielding the Light of the sun/An’she (a celestial body with ties to the Light) would be a perfect thematic trifecta.
Edit: I just realized that we’re WAY off topic for this thread. I’m sorry Blizz.
swordbros get OUT, go roll a warrior!
paladins should lose the ability to wield swords. Hammers only. No 1-hand swords, no 2-hand swords, no polearms, no axes, no offhands, no shields. Just TWO-HAND HAMMERS and TWO ONE-HAND HAMMERS (one of them will be an especially short and wide hammer that’s vaguely shieldlike). Turn Blade of Justice into Blade of Hammer (make a big hammer pop out of the ground). Change Flash of Light into Hammer of Light (make a big hammer smack an ally in the face to heal them). Change Lay on Hands to Lay on Hammers (heal an ally to full health by burying them in a mountain of hammers). Change Divine Steed to Hammer Steed (summon a big hammer to ride around on for a few seconds)
I’m sick of all these people telling me that they don’t want hammers. Hammers are paladin CULTURE and paladin HERITAGE. Please blizzard, the only way to end this once and for all is to remove our ability to use anything other than hammers.
Oh whoops thats my bad I didn’t realize we were talking about templar specifically I thought you meant why hammers are not a good theme for paladin overall. Didnt realize we were in templar feedback thing
Honestly though, I really would hope it just doesn’t matter that the animations are hammers because it would be really nice if they added glyphs so we can change them to swords. If that doesn’t happen though I’ll be honest I would prefer hammers in general because to me that just makes sense for WoW paladin. It may not have as much lore support as swords, but actual paladin gameplay has been thematic around hammers for a long time. When someone mentions ret paladin, the first thing that comes to mind is hammer of wrath, and then big dam judge, and then divine storm during wrath all of which are hammers. I think of hammers before I think of swords. I do agree that templar itself seems more like a sword theme though and to be fair to you as well, the most iconic paladin weapon ever is a sword so.
I like that it adds more offense to protection. I kind of wish it added a bit more defense as well. Being centered around Eye of Tyr is what I am not a fan of because of its 1-minute cooldown.
I think Hammerfall is supposed to make up for it and Shake the Heavens can get the hammers to continue to fall for a good chunk of that 1 minute CD. I did some napkin math earlier in this thread and it was like 20 seconds of Shake the Heavens at minimum.
Blizzard i would be really thankful if you addressed the templar strikes vs crusading strikes talent node before adding any other hero talent that interacts with it. As it stands now crusading strikes remains the single best talent withour a doubt (forcing me to use it when I dont want to).
SHAKE THE HEAVENS just keeps leaning into it harder when in reality the “templar” hero spec should make use of “TEMPLAR STRIKES”. PLEASE I dont expect you to buff ts in a meaningful way so just nerf csaa to let me play templar strikes without feeling like Im gimping myself. I sugest
-FIRST OF ALL untie crusaders reprieve from crusader strike and make it autoattacks to even the playing field OR if templar strikes is talented, crusader reprieve heals for a lot more.
-if you talent csaa you lose attack speed and aa damage
AND OR
-ts gets an even lower gcd, 2hp per hit, longer window to complete the “combo”, if a spell is guaranteed to crit make it increase its crit damage based on a % of mastery
-ts buffs you in some way like "causes your next holy power generators to generate 1 aditional hp/makes spenders cost 1 less hp for x amount of seconds.
Please we need changes I dont want to be locked forever into playing csaa I actually ENJOY PRESSING MY KEYBINDS PLEASE
Another option although very unlikely would be to put ts off the gcd with its own 2s cd.
Because ts has to be actively pressed even if just once, it needs to do something more than just damage or hp generation. That is why I proposed some kind of buff (not too strong to be maintained, but rewarding).
Maybe something inside the templar tree that would synergize well with ts like.
-the templars path: abilities that critically strike/abilities guaranteed to crit fill you with heavenly purpose making them have a 50% chance to grant divine purpose.
Idk but I am sure the way to balancing ts is tied to an aditional interaction rather than just more damage.
Yeah people would just macro it on everything, I don’t think Blizz would go for that either.
Although, to be fair, my suggestion is kinda very similar only just for the second part of the combo and with no need to make an actual macro.
Yep
The problem is multifaceted, there are both design and tuning problems with it.
It doesn’t scale quite right both with haste (Design/tuning) and crit (tuning)
It’s also just too many GCD to fit in the rotation (design).
The challenge is to fix it in the tree and on the talent specifically because having it fixed in the Hero talent tree makes it more a band-aid, the node should be inherently balanced (somewhat).
i mean they already did? ts is only 3% behind csaa and csaa assumes you play the spec perfectly. from the logs i saw that theres alot of misplay with csaa to the point where ts would be a gain. you should have played it while you had the chance cause no one was forcing you to play csaa at all since post rework launched. now tho, with hero talents ya theres gonna be a sizeable non option gain.
why do you guys want to nerf good things? it would have to be nerfed significantly for ts to be a actual gain. because csaa strength is literally the gcd and hopo economy you gain. heck if you have windfury, cs is even less behind
we already do lose aa damage and losing attack speed nerfs the entire spec cause of AOW interaction
ts is a .5gcd in its combo, more hopo will make you overcap more and effectively chanegs nothing, and the window is already long enough to fit a spender before finishing the combo
thats literally the point of ts, its the active choice that makes the spec gcd lock. it was made and catered to the specific people who want that playstyle. along with cs.
literally cs just “more damage on another button” please just play cs
explain this more? cause ts has a .5 gcd so its not completely eclipsed by csaa between its combo and a cd right after like every other filler ability. if it doesnt have a gcd t hen you can macro it to every ability and forget it exists
this would be broken and make the rotation irrelevant.
the issue isnt that ts and csaa exist, the issue is talent point economy gcd economy. cause ts is better in m+ numberically" just for alot of good ret players csaa just offers more cause its one less keybind to worry about and amps your auto attack damage.
this is why i didnt want csaa for a spec like ret, but now t hat its here its very unlikely that it’ll go anywhere. you can nerf it by another 70% and it’ll still be the pick over ts
I’m sorry Blizz.