Feedback: Templar Paladin in The War Within

Classes Paladin
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SotR sure.
Personally I’d wish they give Hammer of Light the benefit of SotR if you’re prot.
That being said, since it would proc off spenders, it means you would have already got the SotR buff anyway, so it’s not like it’s running out.

For WoG. that’s a niche use that’s not worth even mentioning.
Beside they could make it affect only SotR if they wanted to, since WoG is not related to damage.

I just feel like DP has a better thematic fit than either WoA or EyE and that there is a certain mechanical cohesion between what Templar does with Empyrean Hammer and DP.

But obviously WoA and Eye is more deterministic, but it makes both trees effectively have dubious scaling with haste.

205

Huh? Herald of the Sun sounds insanely cool. Sun Herald sounds much worse lol.

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Over the past few days, I have picked up playing Protection which I never really do. But I wanted to see how Protection plays and get the feel for its gameplay. I still have only done PvP and Solo Shuffles, but I think I also understand its core in PvE.

Coming back and viewing Templar strictly through a Protection Paladin’s view, I can see some of the feedback concerns mentioned in this thread.

The first thing you notice is, it’s pretty clear Templar is designed with mainly Retribution in mind. But that’s not necessarily the end of the world because we still have a lot of development time to fine tune it.

I can tell already, that Hammer of Light from Light’s Guidance seems like a strange direction of choice to go for in Prot’s case. This ability doesn’t provide any type of defensive benefit on its own, just damage. Single target and AOE.

For Retribution, it’s clear that the goal of pressing Wake of Ashes is to augment it into Hammer of Light for a new fun damaging ability press that culminates with 5 Holy Power. It feels natural and not at all like you are handicapping yourself for doing so!

But for Protection, you feel like you are missing out and making a mistake for choosing to hit Hammer of Light instead of primarily Shield of the Righteous.

I’m sure the goal is to tune Retribution to where Hammer of Light does more damage than a Final Verdict but also good AOE damage similar-ish to a Divine Storm. Essentially, pressing Hammer of Light has the most value and it feels fun. Especially with its 5 Holy Power cost.

It seems clear that Hammer of Light for Protection Paladins should also give them the benefits of Shield of the Righteous. Especially for its 5 Holy Power cost requirement and cooldown window. But I would even personally go a step further and include an additional benefit as well.

Currently, I’m thinking something like the Protection talent “Faith in the Light”.
This talent gives you 15/30% increase block chance from pressing Word of Glory.

The reason I would also include this is to mirror how Hammer of Light benefits Retribution’s gameplay. With Ret, Hammer of Light is going to be better to press than Final Verdict and Divine Storm combined. Both of our Holy Power Spenders.

It should aim to give a similar feeling for Protection Paladins. That it has more value and feels more fun to press defensively compared to both of our Holy Power Spenders in Shield of the Righteous and Word of Glory.

A final note, after playing Protection Paladin it really stands out that this Hero Spec has no real correlation between Prot and Ret Paladins.

Class fantasy-wise, that is lacking a bit! But I guess that all comes down to the big question of how Hero Specs are aiming to bridge their 2 unique specializations together. Should a DPS spec that has overlap with a Tank spec in a given Hero Spec, feel like a merge of both in some way even with having different roles?

If no, then you can freely differentiate more elements of these talents for the benefit of Protection and Retribution individually.

But if yes, I would like to see more out of Templar for bridging that gap!

For my personal flavor of Templar class fantasy, I have this suggestion. If there is going to be no mention of Shield usage in our Hero Spec, I would prefer defensive benefits to Prot Paladins (and perhaps Ret if we bridge the gap more) to be increases to Parry rather than Block.

Logically makes sense and I still heavily favor the Sword theme over the current Hammers.

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207

i just want to point out that prot currently has 100% uptime overlapping of sotr so its not hindered in the slightest for spending 5 hopo on a new spender.

tyrs eye is also supposed to be pressed on cd due to its damage and effect. it should never be hold due to the sheer number of defensives you can juggle as prot paladin (sentinel, guardians, bubble (if talented), spellwarding, ardent, a cheat death in gift, momentum of glory, bastion, and cdr for its strongest dr tools.) tyrs eye also has a cd of 45 seconds so ergo shouldnt never be held at all

208

My usage of Eye of Tyr may be different than other players. I use it near the begining of the pull, after wings and other on use buffs, while a large pack is on me. This way it’s damage is increased, and it’s defensive benefit is fully utilized. I expect having a 5 holypower nuke to drop right after will feel satisfying. We should have another defensive at the ready if the Hero talent does not provide DR(SotR damage reduction).

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209

I will repeat that I like the tree and the concept.
Now that being said, I have questions about it.

What happens with the Shake the Heaven effect on the free Hammer of Light?
Does it increase the timer on it or does it just refresh it?

What would be the range on Hammer of Light?

Would it inherit FV range? And if it does could it inherit other spender modifiers?
How would HoL interact with VoJ?

Does the free HoL counts as a spender for the purpose of the stack counts to?

Would Divine Purpose proc make the HoL free?

You mention divine purpose in the description of the templar, yet despite that we have a talent literally named Divine Purpose in the class tree it doesn’t interact with it at all.
Is it because the description is a pure RP thing and we’re not meant to see it as a link to the Divine Purpose talent?

“Templar stop at nothing to fulfil their divine purpose of bringing justice and purging the wicked.”

Does the stack mechanic goes beyond 50?
What if we get to 50 just after we used WoA?
Do we have to wait 30sec to use the proc and can’t get more stacks in the meantime?

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210

Agree to disagree. A long drawn out title sounds stupid.

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I would like to piggyback off of Benmarch and start asking questions for more clarification from Blizzard on how some of these talents work, how talents in our Class and Spec trees may be changing in the next expansion, and what the big design philosophy is regarding how Templar bridges Protection/Retribution Paladins.

These questions are going to have to start broad first, so that appropriate feedback can be given with the right context in mind.

  1. What is the actual design goal for a Hero Spec and its 2 unique Class Specializations? Does this design goal shift at all when a Hero Spec happens to include 2 Specs that perform different roles rather than when it includes 2 DPS Class Specs that perform the same role? Does that design goal shift at all from Class to Class?

We must know the answer to these questions first. We need to know if the design goal is to create a “single” Hero Spec Tree that stays largely the same whether we are playing Protection or Retribution for Templar.

Consider this quote from the main article…

“Each Hero Talent concept must be appropriate for both of the specs that can use it. Some concepts build on overlaps in abilities or flavors between the two specs that can use it, like Colossus warriors, which are as mighty as Arms warriors and as imposing as Protection warriors. Others create new themes that are appropriate for both specs, like Fatebound rogues.”

  1. Where do you guys [Blizzard] rank Templar Paladin specifically on this scale?

Once those major questions are answered, we can give much better targeted feedback on how these abilities are playing out in relation to those goals for Templar specifically! Do I need to be thinking how to better design Templar as a whole to bridge the gap between Prot/Ret, or should I instead be thinking on how to better design Templar for each spec independently of each other?

For specific questions that can be answered now separately from that big question, some further clarification and insight would be much appreciated on these!

  1. Is Light’s Guidance only a 1-time use after pressing Wake of Ashes/Eye of Tyr in that 12 sec window? Or, can we continuously keep trying to build up 5 Holy Power to drop as many Hammer of Lights as we can in that 12 sec window once it’s activated?

  2. What is the range on Hammer of Light? Is this melee range? Or is it a similar range to Wake of Ashes, Eye of Tyr or Final Verdict?

  3. Will Vanguard of Justice still exist in the Retribution Talent Tree for The War Within? If it does, how does that talent interact with Hammer of Light if at all?

  4. Will Divine Purpose from our general Paladin Class Tree also apply to Hammer of Light?

  5. Does the team currently have any plans to redesign Protection Paladins specifically in The War Within? Retribution and Holy received reworks in Dragonflight. This would greatly impact Templar feedback if plans to update Prot are also in the works.

  6. Similar to Colossus Warriors and Shockwave, are there any plans to relocate certain Paladin talents in the Class or Spec Trees so that they are more accessible? I’m asking this with Wake of Ashes, Eye of Tyr and Divine Purpose specifically in mind.

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212

Ok I won’t make it long.

Once again Blizzard you failed miserably.
Where is the experienced military knight?

The only theme here is “Rain of hammers!”… There is nothing close to the Templar in all of those talents.

Where is the well-trained in the art of combat Templar in this talent tree? All I see is a guy raining down hammers and it has absolutely nothing to do with a Templar. Honestly, do a little research on history, what does it cost you, frankly?

Instead of showcasing his martial abilities, you’re giving him shiny hammers that fall from the sky…

In the end call it Hammerdin, Hammerbro or Hammerwhatever but not Templar because it is not a Templar.

I’m sorry but that’s not true.
Every Knight Templar had a sword and the most expensive piece of their gear was the riveted chainmail armor not the sword.
The Templar Order was financially independent and could afford to equip each of its knights with swords and riveted chainmail.

Each new Knight received the following weapons :

  • A sword (1 handed)
  • A lance (fighting on horse)
  • A mace (something like this htt_ps://i.pini_mg.co_m/origi_nals/b2/ef/69/b2ef6996cfc91bf6867d9d7710eabef0.jpg but smaller than this one)
  • 3 knives (1 for combat and the other 2 were for daily tasks such as repair or work).

The peasants affiliated to the order were the ones with no chainmail or sword and had to find their gear themselves (mostly with padded clothing and spears).

So in conclusion no the WoW hammerbro is just pure fantasy that came out from the wow class designer’s head and it has nothing in common with a Templar.

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213

To be fair…
In game, Templar’s Verdict have been a hammer spell since Cataclysm.

So it’s not like it’s coming out of nowhere either.

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I would love to see if we could also get a response for additional context similar to what was recently shared for Colossus Warriors!

That reply was incredibly helpful and detailed out exactly what the team is thinking for not just the class flavor, but the mechanics as well behind that Hero Spec.

To pull a direct quote…

“First, on the flavor, Colossus Warriors are big and mighty, but they are also veterans of countless battles and have the expertise to use that brawn most effectively. They are the fearsome combination of raw physical ability and mastery of warfare that no one wants to face on the battlefield. Mechanically, Colossus will aim to deliver some of the biggest melee hits around, and sometimes those big hits come from knowing precisely when and where to hit their target for maximum effectiveness.”

This is great additional class fantasy context that wasn’t included in the original description that was released with Colossus.

I think a similar approach for a response that details out this information for Templar Paladins would go a long way!

There seems to be at least a substantial minority of players in this thread that agree the overarching class fantasy of Templar is not well fleshed out just yet, and that it is slightly too difficult to distinguish this Hero Spec from what a Ret Paladin currently is.

Afterall, Colossus Warriors do happen to be the bridge between Protection and Arms Warriors and Templar Paladin mirrors this same dynamic exactly. This would be a great time to share the views on the overall design, flavor and mechanics that go into each of these respective Hero Specs as they both uniquely share a Tank/DPS role!

One last additional note. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Templar could be the first Hero Spec revealed so far that draws the criticism of a possible underdeveloped class fantasy. The other Hero Specs have drawn their criticisms largely through their combat design instead. This Hero Spec seems to be in unique spot as well in this regard.

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i do want to point out that colossus bridges prot and arms as well as templar does for ret and prot paladin. aka its damage oriented without supercharging the defensive capabilities of specs. considering prot and prot are extremely defensively sound

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Judging off some of the other Hero Talents I’ve seen, I do think that they are going more off that 80/20 balance between the specs.

The Diablolist Warlock I think is a good example. It’s not really giving your Fel Guard a Shadowflame enchanted axe and mixing the brimstone side of Destruction into Demonology, but more so bringing large named demons into Destro’s kit.

Similar, Herald of the Sun I would argue has a bit more healing influence within the talents, such as Eternal Flame, that it’s goal is to branch Ret into Holy, more so than “make Holy a damage dealer.”

Obviously it’s going to have some overlap, but nothing in Herald has say; Holy Shock doing 30% more damage or even things like Harsh Words.

It feels like the flow chart is:

  • Prot — do you wanna damage? —> Templar/Retribution
  • Ret — do you wanna heal? —> Herald/Holy
  • Holy — do you wanna tank? —> Lightsmith/Prot

Where the graphic showed Prot and Ret coming together, it’s more so Prot flows into an overlap of “Templar and Retribution.”

  • If you look at it from this perspective, for a majority of the Hero Talents, does this make more sense?
  • If it does, is “Templar” fitting for a name for Prot → Ret or is that better suited for a Hero spec that more-so pushes Ret → Prot?
  • If this exact same Hero Talent Tree was named something else, such as Hammerdin, Empyrealist, or Crusader (whatever), does that fit the theme better?
  • Diabolist feels 80% demo, 20% Destro. Elune’s Chosen feels 80% Boomkin, 20% Bear. Frostfire is one of the few that feels 50/50.
    • Templar currently feels 80% Ret, 20% Prot-- that doesn’t feel great for the title Templar. Is it better to try and get to that 50/50 mark, or rename this talent tree? >.>
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Personally, Zealot is a better name for the current Templar spec lol.

But indeed, the spec feels damage heavy with little concern with prot survivability. There is even complaints that people would prefer to save eye of tyr to use as a defensive, not as an offensive skill.

Not to mention a 5 HP spender is taking HP away from SoTR.

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Great reply and I think you are spot on in a lot of these points!

Here are my current up to date thoughts and perspective on this area. All of this discussion has been great so far and has personally really helped me better understand and develop my own thoughts and feelings!

Templar misses the mark on it’s proper class fantasy. Of course there is play in the joints, but I would imagine when many players first heard and conceptualized it, it would have touched on any of these following areas:

  • Physical damage dealing juggernaut (Holystrike focus)
  • Most Skilled in Battle
  • Most Righteous in Demeanor
  • Strength of Arms
  • Purity of Mind
  • Paladin/Priest Combatant
  • Military Knight with Battlefield Prowess
  • Military Officer with Steadfast Cavalry
  • Swords and Shields

I’m sure more information will be available for us soon. I’m curious to see if Blizzard is open to re-imagining any elements of our theme for this Hero Spec! Because again, most gameplay elements to this talent tree can absolutely work.

I know we have joked about this and tossed around the name Zealot before Greatbrae, but after really giving this some more thought, that’s not a good title either for this Hero Spec.

Very little is in this tree that references some type of fanatical crusader, which Zealot would capture well.

However, instead, I would genuinely drop this suggestion.

If a re-imagining is not on the table for Templar, and we run with the Hammer theme from this current iteration, our Hero Spec should absolutely be renamed to Vindicator or Vanquisher instead.

Vindicator/Vanquisher are much more thematically appropriate titles for this Hero Spec.

But make no mistake, that is absolutely not what I want to see from Templar! I think a different class fantasy that touches on any of the aspects I mentioned from above earlier would be so much more exciting and fun in-game for the most players.

This comes down to the answer of one question in particular…

If we can only activate 1 use of Hammer of Light after pressing Eye of Tyr, then I can see why there would be very little issue with spending 5 Holy Power on this ability instead of spending 3 Holy Power on Shield of the Righteous.

But if we can continue to build 5 Holy Power to drop as many Hammer of Lights as we can in that given 12 sec window, it’s going to need a direct defensive element for Protection Paladins.

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219

Light’s Deliverance implies that Light’s Hammer is a one-time cast.

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It does seem that way but you never really know. More clarification will likely come soon and we will go from there!

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I like this name, reminds me of a monster slayer kinda guy. Castlevania feeling even.

Don’t mind it being named that at all.

That can be easily said when people has high haste values, but early on expansion low haste values, I am 100% positive prot’s will be HP starved again. Happens every expansion.

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i dont think thats how it’ll work. blizzard has wonky tooltips but it reads like you use hammer of light once but you got 12 seconds to use it. if they make it useable for 12 seconds then that would be absurd considering its replacing wake of ashes for its duration. it needs to have a degree of power that makes it worth using it at 5 hopo instead of fv with empy legacy. it being able to use in succession means it cant be tuned in a level where it can be stronger than fv.

but i see your concerns, i just dont think we’ll see it work like that. a more founded concern is. will wake of ashes go on cd during hammer of light or after hammer of light is cast

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I think, and this is a theory, that this will be a the 2- combo mechanic (without the gcd reduction) on how it will work. We could take TS’s cool-down mechanics and nit-pick it to theorize on how that will work.