Feedback: Shaman

I believe you but am curious how you have been able to verify this 90-100% uptime?

I ask because it only occurs after a crit from a spell or ability based on the talent language and only if selected.

I don’t know why you keep mentioning the talent has to be selected in order to be active. Obviously this is true.

You can verify the uptime of the buff in-game on target dummies or in simulations.

I see what you mean about the up time. It appears it’s reacting to interactive abilities/spells or Flame Shock period crits.

Then I’m no longer concerned about Flurry now. Still my other points are valid, no?

I agree with a lot of the general sentiments.

My issues with Elemental Blast aren’t so much about it’s talent tree placement, and more the fact that it currently feels redundant with Lava Burst. It feels weird to have two talented cooldown-restricted single target maelstrom spenders. Right now it just feels like they’re trying to occupy the same space too much. It’d be cool if Elemental Blast could be a talented replacement of Lava Burst for Enhancement (giving 2 charges if you select both talents).

Swirling Maelstrom is definitely in a bit of an odd spot at the moment. I don’t know that it needs to proc from Frost Shock necessarily (if you’re playing Hailstorm, there’s a good chance you’ll want Ice Strike anyway, and you need to path through Ice Strike to pick up Swirling Maelstrom so you’ll be able to activate the talent). The main issue is Fire Nova builds obviously have no desire to cast Ice Strike, but they also need to talent into it before they can reach Swirling Maelstrom.

Stormstrike will have at least some mastery scaling through Improved Stormbringer. They also partially addressed Windfury’s mastery issue by making Doom Winds triple your Windfury proc chance instead of just capping you at 100% while the buff is up. That said, the mastery->stormbringer/windfury weapon proc chance conversion is still incredibly small and it could probably stand to come up substantially.

5 Likes

Oh I would absolutely love for them to juice Crash alternatively. It’s probably one of my favorite abilities visually and feels fun to press because of it… but it’s lacking.

But if they were not to juice it, id rather see it combined back as a “rank 2 Crash” talent to combine all those effects back VS blocking the only alternative path to wolves.

I think Gathering Storms has been a pretty harped on talent for feedback as being simply a really lacking talent, particularly for 2 point investment.

7 Likes

Enhancement Shaman,

Several changes are coming in the next build you receive, in addition to several bug fixes. We also removed a -35% damage and healing modifier to your spells that benefit from Maelstrom Weapon in an effort to make your spells more impactful, but may have to reintroduce this as tuning goes on.

Talent Changes:

  • Primal Primer is no longer an option in the tree.
    • Primal Primer and Primal Lava Actuators were two different ways of making Lava Lash better. We opted to keep Primal Lava Actuators.
  • Hailstorm now provides your next Frost Shock a bonus for up to 10 Maelstrom Weapon charges spent to better work with Overflowing Maelstrom. The maximum bonus targets is still limited to 5.
  • Stormstrike now replaces Primal Strike.
  • Doom Winds now does some immediate damage when you activate the ability.
  • Ice Strike’s Frost Shock buff now highlights Frost Shock.
  • Alpha Wolf now works with Chain Lightning, rather than Crash Lightning so you do not have to take Crash Lightning to get the benefit.
  • Ascendance now is now a choice node vs Deeply Rooted Elements.
  • Thorim’s Invocation now remembers whether you most recently cast Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning, and uses that spell when you use Windstrike, rather than always using Lightning Bolt.
  • Chain Lightning (rank 2) functionality baked into Crash Lightning/Chain Lightning interactions.
  • New 1-point talent: Crashing Storms: Crash Lightning damage increased by 40%, and Chain Lightning strikes 2 additional targets.
  • Gathering Storms has been consolidated down to a 1-point talent.
  • Hot Hand has been converted to a 2-point talent with the same total values.
  • Feral Spirit cooldown has been reduced to 90 seconds.
  • Elemental Spirits no longer reduces the cooldown of Feral Spirits.
  • Several talents have shifted around due to the above changes.

Thank you all for the continued feedback and testing.

26 Likes

Useful change to increase the strength of baseline Feral Spirits, but I must ask: will this change make Feral Spirits no longer reset its CD upon resetting an encounter since the 1:30 CD will be a part of the baseline Feral Spirits button? It’s really quite minor in the grand scheme of things, sure, but it’d be nice nevertheless. It’s a criticism I have with current Shadow’s Voidform as a baseline since that’s naturally a 1:30 CD and thus doesn’t reset on an encounter ending.

How exactly will this work? Will the proc chance be split in half per Talent point, will the CDR on Lava Lash be split in half per Talent point, will the damage increase of Lava Lash be split in half per Talent point, or will it be some combination or two or all three of these? I ask because Hot Hand doesn’t seem like the most intuitive choice for a multi-point Talent node, and there’s predecent for all of these in this tree in particular (i.e. Elemental Assault and Legacy of the Frost Witch’s biggest value coming from their first point since that activates their resource generation, while the second point is more of a damage increase to the corresponding abilities).

This may be asking for a bit too much, but would you guys happen to have a visual for this, by any chance? The Death Knight changes that were just announced had some visuals showing what the corresponding Class/Unholy Spec tree changes looked like in the context of a revamped tree, so I only ask since it would be nice to see what the exact nature of these shifts are. I.E. will Ascendance and Stormflurry stay where they are, or will they swap places with Primordial Wave and something on the left side for a more cohesive Stormstrike ST vs. Fire spells cleave/AoE split on the tree.

Nevertheless, thank you for these changes! I’m definitely quite interested in seeing how it all plays out since I’ve been a massive fan of Enhancement’s tree since the beginning.

4 Likes

Please consider undoing this change.
For those of us who long for the days of 2handed Enhance, Primal Strike is the perfect middle ground.
The spec doesn’t have to be raid viable or competitive in any way. You don’t need to change anything else.

There just needs to be a spell you can press often enough so there isn’t massive downtime in the playstyle, and Primal Strike is the perfect one.

Hope you will consider this, as I believe the talent tree development is the perfect opportunity to add more optional builds and fun ways to play our favorite specs and classes.

8 Likes

My initial thoughts on today’s Enhancement changes:

  • removed a -35% damage and healing modifier to your spells that benefit from Maelstrom Weapon in an effort to make your spells more impactful, but may have to reintroduce this as tuning goes on.
  • Great - tipping the balance more towards the caster playstyle ought to be an achievable choice with pushing more potential maelstrom generation into the tree. Will have to keep an eye on tuning, but now spenders can at least feel “punchy” with a ~53% damage increase (+23% to Elemental Blast after losing the Shadowlands specific buff)

Talent Changes:

  • Primal Primer is no longer an option in the tree.
    • Primal Primer and Primal Lava Actuators were two different ways of making Lava Lash better. We opted to keep Primal Lava Actuators.
  • Probably for the best - Both talents had potentially separate design spaces and interactions with targets (heavily dependent on tuning & stack count) but were similar enough to just confuse which was better in each scenario.
  • Hailstorm now provides your next Frost Shock a bonus for up to 10 Maelstrom Weapon charges spent to better work with Overflowing Maelstrom. The maximum bonus targets is still limited to 5.
  • Cool :sunglasses:
  • Stormstrike now replaces Primal Strike.
  • Good - no longer have to innately worry about using it during potential downtime in exceedingly rare cases.
  • Doom Winds now does some immediate damage when you activate the ability.
  • Will need to wait and see what “some immediate damage” means - Doom Winds is a versatile ability that can be leveraged in both ST and AoE - hopefully it scales with target count to press in AoE.
  • Whatever it’s doing, it should scale with Mastery since the activation feeling bad is tied to feeling bad to usurping other AoE or ST abilities. Having the cast have a chance to proc Windfury (and have its chance scale with the Doom Winds buff) would be a good start.
  • Ice Strike’s Frost Shock buff now highlights Frost Shock.
  • Good UI update. Bars are getting pretty over-full of shiny stuff though; I feel like Maelstrom Weapon is the worst offender on our bars at the moment. With the existing UI element that shows us when we’re at 5, spenders should probably only glow when we’re capped.
    • And on the note of Maelstrom Spenders, I really think this needs a UI update. Managing your Maelstrom stacks with Overflowing Maelstrom is just a big ol question mark without addons.
  • Alpha Wolf now works with Chain Lightning, rather than Crash Lightning so you do not have to take Crash Lightning to get the benefit.
  • Feels like a functionality sidegrade at best, most often a straight downgrade. The flexibility of Crash Lightning is that it didn’t cost resource and was consistently available (if talented) - now Alpha Wolf requires resources to activate in all scenarios.
    • The best QoL improvement is probably to allow Alpha Wolf to automatically start pulsing 1s after spawn and continue until expiration. This will allow them time to spawn, charge their target, then start pulsing for damage.
    • If passive activation is off the table (due to CC breaks or something), allowing Alpha Wolf to activate off Crash Lightning OR spending 5 or more maelstrom on any offensive spell so it can be flexibly activated in AoE or Single Target and to resolve CD related conflicts like Lava Burst or Elemental Blast coming off cooldown would be great.
      • Or to be simple, just make Alpha Wolf AoEs ignore CC since the ability will already pretty much always be up - and we can’t just stop the wolf pulsing anyways so CC control is completely off the table anyways.
  • Ascendance now is now a choice node vs Deeply Rooted Elements.
  • Excited for this - will need to play around with tuning, but the hectic resource dump format of Thorin’s ought to make this a fun and powerful reactive talent, if tuned correctly.
    • May want to explore “Bad luck protection” implementations like the ‘deck of cards’ system so folks aren’t regretting their choice.
  • Thorim’s Invocation now remembers whether you most recently cast Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning, and uses that spell when you use Windstrike, rather than always using Lightning Bolt.
  • Absolutely awesome. Combined with updated Chain Lightning (below), this will be super fun.
  • Chain Lightning (rank 2) functionality baked into Crash Lightning/Chain Lightning interactions.
  • Reduces ability “buy-back” behavior in the tree, thank you.
  • New 1-point talent: Crashing Storms: Crash Lightning damage increased by 40%, and Chain Lightning strikes 2 additional targets.
  • While this is a huge and welcome improvement to Chain Lightning, Crash Lightning still needs some more love. Possible candidate for pre-launch tuning, but would still like to see some additional powerful talent support for Crash Lightning elsewhere in the tree.
  • Gathering Storms has been consolidated down to a 1-point talent.
  • At 5% it’s still way on the weaker side. Would like to see some aggressive tuning here with a target cap to keep on the theme of being a 6 target AoE specialist as it has to compete with AoE actions - this could easily be 20% per target struck. Allowing it some serious strength in low target cleave / high target priority scenarios could encourage spending points in Crash Lightning and Gathering Storms in priority target or even mostly single target scenarios in lieu of going for overall AoE. This talent has to compete with far more valuable AoE and cleave options, so it needs some real strength to justify the 2 point investment (Crash and Gathering). This would give us some additional target flexilibity with regaining some of our priority funneling strengths we’ve lost this past expansion.
  • Hot Hand has been converted to a 2-point talent with the same total values.
  • Hopefully this is included in the “shifting around” of talents, or else the cost to reach Ascendance just went up, as it would be the same cost to just path through Ice Strike and Swirling Maelstrom instead.
    • Hot Hands over time has lost favor with players and I’d like to see a re-design of Hot Hands to massively reduce the variability of it, especially considering the multiplicative nature of Elemental Spirits.
    • This change is likely only solving the issue that Hot Hand is too good to not include in every build as its worth like 2.5-3x the value of the average talent. I have concerns that even weakening it by 50% it’s going to be probably an auto-include in every build if it doesn’t move.
  • Feral Spirit cooldown has been reduced to 90 seconds.
  • Elemental Spirits no longer reduces the cooldown of Feral Spirits.
  • The 2 previous lines are just an overall buff to Feral Spirits (for Alpha Wolf and Baseline wolves specifically).
    • Baseline wolves however need some serious oomph to be worth casting. There’s no scenario in which you’d pick up Feral Spirit as a 1 pointer without going down the rest of the line.
      • Pwave and Ascendance have some niche scenarios in which 1 or 2 points can compete with Elemental Assault or Legacy of the Frost Witch, but Feral Spirit is just always the wrong choice for 1/2 points.
        • These scenarios are assuming you spent 8 points in other capstone lines and had a few points leftover.
  • Several talents have shifted around due to the above changes.
  • I could speculate, but better to wait and see what’s moved.
23 Likes

It would be nice to see feral lunge be baseline for the enhancement kit. And instead have the talent be a damage modifier for it to increase it’s damage. It’s one of those spells that feels fun to have, it’s hard to justify talenting into with all the mobility in the class tree.

I have noticed on wowhead that lava burst and frost shock scale with spellpower. It would be nice to get enhancement versions that scale off of attack power!

It would be nice for surging shields to let your attacks proc the shields as well for enhancement at least. Losing out on that functionality decreases the value of some of the enhancement talents and stuff like windfury builds. Adding an effect to surging shields to let your attacks proc your shield effects would buff talents like elemental orbit.

Windfury totem would be nice if it effected all melee users in the raid. Or had a caster bonus as well. So far the nerfs to it’s utility and usage for enhancement makes it feel less desirable. Which is nice to opt out of. But feels like a waste of a talent option.

The second point investments in many talents feel weaker then the first point. Point budget wise this leads to not wanting to invest further down trees since 2nd point investments seem to overall have low impact and go for more abilities with baseline functionality.

It would be nice to see a nice upgrade impact for 2nd point choices Like elemental assault. First point is Storm strike 8% increased damage and 1 maelstrom from storm strike. The 2nd point is just 7% increased damage and has way less impact and less desirable overall. This applies to legacy of the frostwitch.

It would also be nice for flametongue weapon to do something for both elemental and restoration shamans offensively. Perhaps a random chances to throw a fireball or something. Or a random chance to spawn a fire totem depending on what you are casting. Lightning bolt - old fire totem single target, chain lighting, aoe fire totem spawned at target hit location, lava burst - volcano totem. Or at least work as advertised and include working with spells instead of just melee attacks.

3 Likes

Enhancement has a baseline effect that causes our spell power to scale with our attack power, so this isn’t necessary. All sources of Agility and attack power will give us both AP and SP, so we’re already covered on this front.

3 Likes

If this is the case then ignore that tidbit.

From the development notes for today’s Alpha update:

  • Elemental
    • Earthquake – Damage reduced by 25%.
    • Chain Lightning – Damage increased by 25%. (Elemental only)
    • Lava Beam – Damage increased by 25%.
    • Lightning Bolt – Damage reduced by 20%. (Elemental only)
    • Lava Burst – Damage reduced by 20%. (Elemental only)
    • Earth Shock – Damage reduced by 20%.
    • Elemental Blast – Damage reduced by 20%. (Elemental only)
    • Lightning Rod – Deals 20% of Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt damage (was 25%).
  • Enhancement
    • Rearranged various talents and created new pathways and choices.
    • Stormstrike now replaces Primal Strike.
    • Doom Winds now does some minor damage when you activate it.
    • Ice Strike’s Frost Shock buff now highlights Frost Shock
    • Alpha Wolf now works with Chain Lightning, rather than Crash Lightning.
    • Improved Stormbringer renamed Stormblast.
    • Unruly Winds chance raised to 100%.
    • Ascendance is now a choice node with Deeply Rooted Elements.
    • Thorim’s Invocation now remembers whether you last used Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning, and will use that spell instead of always Lightning Bolt.
    • Chain Lightning Rank 2 has been added into the Chain Lightning/Crash Lightning interactions and is no longer a talent.
    • New Talent: Crashing Storms – Chain Lightning jumps to 2 additional targets, and also increases Crash Lightning damage by 40%.
    • Forceful winds is now 45% damage per stack (was 35%).
    • Gathering Storms is now a 1-point talent (was 2). Value increased to 15%, and there’s a maximum of 10 stacks of Gathering Storms.
    • Hot Hand is now a 2-point talent (was 1).
    • Elemental Assault adjusted to be 10/20% Stormstrike damage (was 7/15%). Maelstrom weapon chance is now 50/100% per rank.
    • Lava Burst is affected by Enhancement mastery.
    • Primal Primer is no longer an option on the tree.
    • Hailstorm now gains bonus damage from up to 10 Maelstrom Weapon charges spent to work better with Overflowing Maelstrom. The bonus targets is still capped at 5.
    • Nature’s Fury now works correctly with the immediate damage from Ascendance.
    • Feral Spirits is now a 90 second cooldown.
    • Elemental Spirits no longer reduces Feral Spirit cooldown.
  • Restoration
    • Water Totem Mastery – Consuming Tidal Waves reduces the cooldown of Cloudburst, Healing Stream, Healing Tide, Mana Spring, Mana Tide, and Poison Cleansing Totem by 0.5 seconds (was 0.25 seconds).
6 Likes

Overall these changes have felt pretty great thus far.

A few questions or bugs to mention.

Alpha Wolves: EDIT: The skill is working, however it’s called Spirit Bomb for damage and does not have any FCT for visual indication of AoE hits.

Additionally the damage from it is considered Nature damage, but is not scaling from our Mastery or Ele Weapons talent, is this intended or a bug?

Stormblast: Currently is not scaling from Mastery or Elemental Weapons talent nodes. Is this intended?

Unruly Winds: Is not activating a 3rd Windfury hit even though it says 100% chance now.

Legacy of the Frost Witch/Thorims Invoc: Is no longer resetting Windlash strikes from Ascendance form when Maelstrom is consumed from Thorims Invocation. Is this intended or a bug?

I’m sure there will be more that arise over the week, but for now once again, the changes have felt pretty great!

8 Likes

I have been testing Elemental on the alpha and am really enjoying the possible talent combinations.

Electrified shocks is a talent that I want to enjoy but it feels so clunky and awful to use.
I understand the intent is for Frost Shocks to be weaved in with Chain Lightning casts but in its current state its very clunky and I found it much easier to ignore the intended gameplay and instead spam the ability until the buff is gone than to deal with the minor damage increase to Chain Lightning and Lightning Rods. With the exception of Stormkeeper empowered Chain Lightnings

The issues with Electrified shocks are that it only effects nature damage which means it does not affect the physical damage from Earthquake making it less valuable to maintain when you have high resource and are using earthquakes as the spender.
The Frost Shock casts still only give 8 resource versus 16 (34 on overload) from Chain Lightning on 4 targets which lowers overall resource generation and feels bad from a resource generation perspective.
The management of weaving Frost Shocks between Chain Lightning casts hampers resource generation and contributes a small damage gain from Chain Lightning and Earth Shocks but reduces overall damage from Earthquake.

Now to be fair those Frost Shocks hit very hard, which is very nice for an ability, but since it only interacts with a portion of our AoE damage it feels like an ability that just needs to be done quickly so we can get back to actually doing AoE.

Overall, I like the shift away from Earthquake as such a dominating amount of Elemental AoE, but I don’t want Earthquake to become the Earthshock of AoE Earthquake has already been nerfed heavily twice.

Lightning rod is actually a very cool talent which is hampered by the current version of Electrified Shocks, there is a quality of life addition I would like to see since it is very likely shamans will be running Echoes of Great Sundering for AoE, when casting Earth Shock or Elemental Blast on a target already afflicted with the Lightning Rod debuff that a nearby enemy will be afflicted instead and if no nearby enemy is found then it will refresh the debuff.
Alternatively if we could see the debuff on enemies’s nameplates to easily see targets that are not afflicted so they can be swapped to and applied. I would also like to see Earthquake place the debuff on targets that do not have the debuff, currently it can select the same target and reapply the debuff.

Overall I like the talents and feel of elemental but I would like to see a change on Electrified shocks to make it less of something that needs to be done to something I want to do.

8 Likes

Finished testing multiple builds for Elemental AoE.

Earthquake has lost half of its value with Chain Lightning retaining its overall value.

The missing Earthquake value is obtained by the Electrified Shocks talent (Which the best way to handle is to forgo weaving and use all the charges ASAP) and by the Lightning Rod talent.

This does lower elemental’s AoE profile, elemental drops down closer to preferring 4-5 and 10+ targets rather than just 5+ like it has been in the past. Elemental will still do more damage the more enemies that are present, but the damage will just be lower than historically.

Now for a talent I was very excited for, Mountains Will Fall.
This talent is such a letdown (at least for AoE, it’s just ok for ST). With the nerfs to Earthquake and tuning changes this talent is extremely weak for Earthquake to the point that I can’t recommend it at all, in its current state it is too weak to be worthy of being called a Capstone talent.
I would like to see Earthquake get more of a benefit from this talent.

I would still like to see Electrified Shocks affect Physical damage to smooth the usage of that talent, currently it’s not very fun to use.

10 Likes

So far I am really liking the Resto talents, I play in this spec exclusively and with all the extra damage spells I am very happy with my damage output. I don’t die near as much as some of the other classes I’ve tried. The one problem I did run into is that I am unable to heal others at the moment, in group or out in the open. If I have “automatically self cast” checked in the Options/Interface panel I can only heal myself, if I uncheck it I can heal others but can’t cast any spells on my character. I can’t use my shields or heals, not good when out questing and I take damage. I put in a bug on this, it really needs fixing. I didn’t notice anything like this on my priest when I played her, I could heal others, which I did, and myself. But that was a few weeks ago so not sure about now or if this is just a shaman glitch. Others made the remark in chat that other healers were having the same problem, so I’m thinking its an overall glitch. Afraid to run a dungeon in that I can fix it so I can heal others but I won’t be able to heal myself. Most fights it wouldn’t be a problem but in those aoe damage fights, or direct damage, then it would be a problem.

1 Like

I think it makes sense that our spender should be a significant amount of our damage in AOE. Going away from this will weaken builds (primarily talents that focus on fire spells) that utilize different ways of cleaving 2-4 stacked targets. We currently have a decent amount of talents that focus on generating or saving maelstrom passively, which means we will cast more earthquakes and less chain lightning, which ends up being counter productive towards how you want us to AOE. Overall I think both in m+/Raiding, this change will kill any variety we have in our builds.

8 Likes

What are the odds we could get old windfury animation back? The tornado encircling the shaman was really cool. It was always my understanding that it was removed in Legion and given to Doomwinds to give it a cooler effect however in BFA when Enhance lost doomwinds the animation was never returned to windfury.

Can we get old windfury animation back for enhance? Pretty please? haha

16 Likes

I think animations in general need an overhaul for Enhancement. A lot of its weapon attacks and spell effects are either generic or very small / unnoticeable. I’m definitely not suggesting that we need to be overwhelmed with visual clutter, but animations overall are pretty underwhelming.

12 Likes