Feedback: Shaman

Windfury Totem
The benefit of Windfury Totem is obscure in game, requires extensive testing and simming outside the game, and in the end averages to 2-4% damage increase for the party (not the raid). This persists for 2 minutes and has a 30yd range. Boss arenas are not 30 yards, bosses move constantly, and this buff does almost nothing. It feels terrible to press. Enh Shamans are spending 2%+ of our GCDs every single pull for something that provides much much less benefit to the raid than buffs that Warriors, DH, Monks give. It honestly just feels like a tax. I would rather it gets removed entirely and give us back a talent point we can use elsewhere. If it must remain it should have vastly increased range, be removed from the GCD, or just made into a buff. Ideally it will be reworked to actually feel like it is worth a talent point and feels good to press.

This GCD pressure is only being compounded by the addition of more totems with zero compensation to our GCDs. If totem fantasy must be in DF then it would be nice to reintroduce the ability to place multiple totems at once.

Major DPS windows are completely out of player control
Hot Hand and Elemental Wolves share an RNG aspect that is competely out of player control. Exacerbated in SL, the combination of Hot Hand and Ele Wolves and Magma Fist mean that the major contributing factor to whether you do good DPS or not is completely outside the control of the player. Magma Fist is leaving, that is good. The design of Hot Hand and Ele Wolves is unchanged, however. Please give us more control over our dps windows. It feels terrible to get a hot hand proc when you cannot utilize it. It feels less terrible to get a hot hand proc without the correct set of wolves spawned from Elemental Wolves, but that is still a bad feeling. It feels kind of bad to get a Hot Hand proc when you can use it but also have multiple other procs ready to use. I do not like having my decision making taken away from me for 5+ seconds because I got a proc that is impossible to predict or plan for.

6 Likes

Let’s be real - they have a no-win job. They come here and say we agree, they get yelled at cuz its not what they want.

Loo

While art effort would be the initial thoughts, it’s probably more to do with performance issues…

I looked at individual logs and they are casting it 5+ times. It is actually impossible to have 98% uptime with 1 cast because it only lasts 2 minutes.

2% GCD cost is most likely conservative.

Resto 4 set is very underwhelming.

  • (4) Set Bonus: When Healing Stream Totem/Cloudburst Totem expires or dies, you gain 10% Haste for 10 seconds.

Its a simple Idea to play around just something more impactful than 10% haste for 10 sec…

perhaps 10% healing for 10 seconds. Or cdr for the next cloudburst/ healing stream

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Enhancement

(2) Set Bonus: Stormstrike increases the damage of your next Lava Lash by 10% and causes it to generate 1 additional stack of Maelstrom Weapon.

(4) Set Bonus: Consuming Maelstrom Weapon stacks reduces the cooldown of Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Crash Lightning, Flame Shock, or Frost Shock by 0.5 seconds per stack, chosen randomly.

I like the 2 piece. Guaranteed MSW stacks are always welcome and a fun way to add DPS to our kit since it gives us a bit more control.

Seems like the 4 piece would be better if it were just the melee attacks since we don’t need shorter shock cds. Honestly, I’m not sure we need lower CDs that much in general. Rotation feels pretty full. At least if you take all the melee attacks, including ice strike. Speaking of which, it would be nice if this extended to ice strike as well.

Like what if you took out the shocks and added ice strike and just made it work on all the melee abilities?

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Hi Enhancement Shaman,

A change is coming next week to how Windfury Totem works. These changes have no impact on the Windfury Weapon imbue, nothing is changing with how that works.

For some quick context, in Shadowlands, Windfury Totem can only activate from main-hand auto-attacks, and causes a main-hand auto-attack swing when it activates.

The next build you receive should have Windfury Totem changed to work this way:

  • Main-hand auto attack interaction is unchanged, except for the miss note below.
  • Off-hand attacks can proc an off-hand Windfury attack. This is an actual real “auto attack”, which means things like Flametongue Weapon, or whatever other effects may activate from off-hand attacks, can now potentially happen from this bonus attack.
  • Windfury Totem extra attacks can no longer miss. This has very little impact on 2h users, as an Arms Warrior or Retribution Paladin almost never see a miss in their combat log, however dual-wield users have a high miss chance. In Shadowlands, this miss chance both applies to the chance to get the Windfury Totem’s extra attack, and the extra attack itself can then miss. Targets can still dodge or parry these attacks, they are just no longer able to miss.
  • Bonus bug fix: Enhancement Shaman who are under the effects of Ascendance can now benefit from Windfury Totem if they are auto-attacking from outside of melee range range with Windlash.

We will be monitoring any unintended side effects from this change, but this should help make Windfury Totem more valuable to more specs within the game.

23 Likes

Why is dual wield miss chance a valuable design decision to continue existing? Parry and Dodge are frustrating for melee already, miss chance seems like a poor way to balance 2hand vs dual wield specs when more obvious direct ways (which dont affect gameplay) exist to do this already.

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Don’t be that guy. You’re better than this.

1 Like

Scroll up, they arent. Lol

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Yeah I just noticed. Sigh… I wish the moderation team was more active on the trolls.

Now he’s probably going to reply with some 10 year old come back because he can’t control himself.

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This is my main. I don’t play warlock on retail.

You being a troll has nothing to do with sincerity. I don’t like the tier sets either. But instead of throwing a tantrum about it like a 6 year old and making yourself look like a fool. Why not give constructive, well thought out, reasonable feedback? Because right now I guarantee if Blizzard sees your posts they just scroll past it and make fun of you in the office.

Grow up dude.

7 Likes

Enhancement 2-pc bonus is fine.

My issue with 4-pc bonus is that our specialization is priority-based enough as it is. With Shocks’ cooldowns already affected by haste and Stormstrike’s Stormbringer passive, I have to wonder if it’d make the play style a wee bit more frenetic than is ideal.   Will have to wait and find out.

4 Likes

DF enhance already has incredible amounts of GCD clash - injecting more GCDs into the rotation isn’t going to be very high value, it’s going to be splitting hairs on RNG rolling for ability priorities

invdividual cd reset value:
-flame shock - useless with lava lash refresh around, BUT if the 4pc doesn’t pick an ability already off CD then… whatever. this might as well not be on there, no difference either way
-SS - stormbringer sure does like to reset the CD of this a lot - imagine getting -2.5s off SS, then a stormbringer reset. woo.
-LL - same deal with hot hand - but also functionally WORTHLESS in AoE. possibly situational RNG value in ST - maybe if you play a build that isn’t casting SS, FrS, FS or crash very much, funneling more CDR to LL? either way, meh
-frost shock - is already MW or CD limited by ice strike. the value of LB5 or LB>5 (with OM) is likely to not even effect frost shock’s CDR seeing as its also time limited by MW gen. more frost shocks isnt high value without more MW or more ice strikes
-crash - possibly useful in aoe - except aoe is absolutely going to be competing with SS for RNG rolling the CDR, and crash loves to proc SB and crash aoe already has a somewhat strict loop - cdr here might let you cast crash a GCD sooner but odds are fighting you against which ability the CDR goes into (crash → speed up aoe loop, frost shock → worthless, SS → almost certainly worthless) - (Ru Sah)

8 Likes

You’re talking about this post right? You think this is constructive and reasonable?

Regarding this. They JUST said they are going to be starting tuning. They haven’t done tuning yet. Why are you so upset about the tuning of abilities when they haven’t started working on it?

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It seems that you probably 1 trick resto shaman. If you played more classes and specs you’d realize that most of the tier sets aren’t very good. I main Enhance and Resto and I can tell you, the Enh tier is worse than Resto. But you don’t see me raging about it.

This is just the first pass. We’ll give them our feedback. We’ll test them. And they’ll work on them. It’s going to be ok dude.

Oh… you deleted the post I just replied to. That’s awkward.

Really wish there was a talent to give stormstrike 2 charges. Or that it was baked into stormbringer.

Short of that, I’d love to see 2 charges of stormstrike as a tier set bonus.

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Would love to see Winds of Al’Akir changed to be a 5% move speed bonus PER totem. This would further enhance the value to the enhance shaman in taking WF totem since it is unlikely the enhance shaman will have 3 totems down at one time very often.

Particularly since, if the shaman goes down the spirit walk path, they may not have the points to invest in the resto path for healing stream totem and mana spring totem and therefore may not have other maintenance totems to use to trigger the current Al’Akir bonus.

In other words, winds of al’akir is a “catch-22,” in that spending the points to take it may prohibit the shaman from being able to acquire the maintenance totems necessary to trigger the current bonus.

10 Likes

I have to say I am at a loss about the Shaman class tree. Having only recent access to the beta, but having followed the talent trees since they were available on WoWhead. I am really trying to understand what happened when it came to this class tree. I also regularly play a Warlock, Death Knight and a Rogue. I can say unequivocally those trees are substantially better.

In what ways? Well, simply those trees are better defined, better built and seemingly less random. In each of those trees there is clear delineated path for each of the specs. It’s clear to see where the Frost talents, the Subtlety talents, the Affliction talents are at. This is not the case with the Shaman tree, it’s almost like everything was placed at random. I don’t feel good at all going through it, the choices I’m making is to just retain utility not “enhance” my Elemental spec. In every other tree I can make choices that are not related to my specs that give me greater utility. Every part of the Shaman tree I am fighting to get back my base toolkit. How did this happen?

It’s also time to have a conversation about totems, you have decided to emphasize talents that boost totems. My response is what totems? It has been the decision of the designers to de-emphasize and strip totem utility for, what 4-5 expansions, now? You have eliminated buff totems, you have eliminated throughput totems, you have eliminated utility and effect totems. But, now I supposed to feel excited about spending talent points on buffing them?

I acknowledge that Resto still has had some quite useful totems, Healing and Mana Tide are awesome totems. But, for Enhance for Elemental you have fundamentally stripped them of their gameplay. Outside investing a spec. talent point, they have access to nothing on a base kit. And you have designed it so situational utility has to be paid for in general talent points.

So I have to ask again, what the hell are you thinking? Really, I’m struggling to understand how this tree looks like this, how it looks like half the work was done to bring us a tree with talents scattered all over the place. I don’t have that feeling about any other tree I have looked at. Even with Druid trees, who have just as much button bloat, if not more. I can clearly pick talents and ability that emphasize the abilities of Resto, Balance, Guardian etc… and what I would plan to play offspec. THAT IS NOT PRESENT FOR SHAMAN.

I know you have claimed that you are done with major changes, but seriously there is a lot of work left to do for Shamans. The class tree needs to be rebuilt in a way that follows the others, a clear delineated path for each spec, and the ability to seek cross-over utility. Again, with the 3 other classes I play regularly I can do that. I can build survivability into my Frost DK, by taking Blood DK talents. I can pick Subtlety talents that improve my Assassination rogue. So I know it’s possible.

It’s time to fundamentally change your approach on Shamans. If our class identity is controlling the elements and using totems, totems need to be rebuilt to be impactful choices. I understand that a lot of it got changed over time, because bleeding edge players were doing stupid things to clear end-game content. But, you used that as a catch all excuse to destroy your totem design. Shaman players should be excited to drop their marquee totems. Right now, I am not and I surmise the whole community feels the same.

I would suggest aiming to make a iconic totem for each spec, the focus of each part of the class tree. I think the clear choice for Enhancement will always be Windfury, I don’t play it a lot, but the feedback here has been it’s quite underwhelming. I would say Lava Totem is going to be the choice for Elemental, I’ve played around with it and it just seems under-tuned. Again, this needs to be an exciting moment, a powerful effect. I heal enough as resto to say that I am quite fond of Healing Tide totem, but I think that needs to be the idea to build the spec around.

If it isn’t clear, I think a lot of the community is asking for what the other classes got. Because in all frankness this tree looks like things were just shoved in random places and pushed out the door. Maybe with the intent to change it, but while other classes got revamps, as far as I can tell this has stayed the same. I mean there is a talent for leech and avoidance. What? Why? What part of the shaman playstyle has ever emphasized leech and avoidance? This is just but one example of a lot of inscrutable decisions. C’mon ladies and gents do better…

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I did not want to get into the subject, but I will be brief. For me, all classes that really need it should receive a rework in their class tree. However, I don’t really understand why you think it emphasizes the tree so much in obtaining our talents/utilities, practically in our feedback from druids we all agree that we need a rework, since it is the least versatile of all. In your case… it’s a bit bloated like ours, but at least you have more paths to choose from to get new things or your old utilities. Be careful, I’m not saying it’s perfect either, but at least it’s decent compared to others like the Druid, Priest or Paladin. In any case, I hope that you also give them a rework (in the future, since the already mentioned classes are waiting) and that they do it well… otherwise they will lose out (as other classes fear when they rework their tree of class).

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Ideally you don’t want abilities in your class tree that increase throughput much. You want unique and interesting utility that lets you stretch your usefulness beyond your chosen role. Our class tree, more than most, affords us opportunities to do just that. It’s the gold standard, generally speaking. Anyone arguing that it needs more throughput should ask paladins how they feel about that. Anyone arguing that we need more choices that are obviously made for certain specs to take 100% of the time, need to ask how monks feel about the statues in their class tree.

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