Feedback: Rogues

My comments below are for the current build of Sub Rogue, in a PVE environment (build 10.0.0.44999):

Of the 3 Rouge spec, Subtlety is the most broken. Many of the talent and abilities simply don’t work. Nothing stacks in terms of charges (e.g. Shadow Dance). With Sub not having a real utility ability in the toolkit, I can’t see how in PVE this spec will be picked by many. I went through each row of talents and tried to find issues that need addressing in future builds:

General comment on Sub: Sub will still severely suffer from a lack of a cleave ability. Yes, the talent “replicating shadows” could address this somewhat, but giving 1 additional rupture to an additional target won’t be near enough. There should be a talent that give the Sub rogue cleave damage to 2nd and/or 3rd target, but at a reduced cost, similar to Blade Flurry. I will re-test this talent once its implemented, but I suspect 2 and 3 target damage will fall far behind other classes and specs.

• Row 10 ‘The Rotten’ does not increase damage for Shadowstrike or Backstab, nor is it granting 4 additional combo points. It does seem to be providing the 100% crit component for Shadowstrike/backstab.

• ‘Improved Shurken Storm’ is not applying ‘Find Weakness’ from a critical Shuriken Storm hit.

• Sub can’t use Leeching Poison – Sub won’t typically use Wound Poison in PVE and can’t use Deadly Poison. Need to make this talent work with any lethal poison. Where is the Soothing Darkness for Sub? This seems like it MUST be in the Sub talent tree. Please consider putting Soothing Darkness back in the Sub talent tree.

• Again, why do we have 2 versions of Deeper Stratagem? Currently they don’t stack, and you can’t get 7 combo points max. Not sure why there are 2 versions of this talent for rogues.

• Flagellation is not providing a stacking buff for the 12 sec after the initial 12 sec. It will persist for 12 seconds, then just disappear. Also, why is Mastery the buff that this talent is applying? Right now on live, Mastery is not a good stat for Sub. I would much rather see this ability give a Vers buff instead of Mastery.

• Gloomblade still shows up in Combat Log at Backstab (is it supposed to show up as backstab?). Gloomblade normal hits for 1300 damage, crits for 2700 damage. Normal backstab hits for 1400 damage, crits for 2900 damage. This tells me taking Gloomblade is actually a DPS loss as it’s doing less damage. Gloomblade crits are also not applying find weakness debuff. What’s the incentive to take this talent? …perhaps once the find weakness debuff is working correctly then it may have more value as a talent.

• 6-combo point Secret Technique is hitting for only 2,100 damage. Tooltip shows 8,357 damage. Even with multiple targets, Secret Technique was doing about 1k damage normal, and up to 4k crit. But, the overall damage was nowhere near 8,357. Something is going on to make this talent hugely underwhelming. A 45 sec CD is too long for the damage it’s doing. This should be somewhere around 25 sec.

• ‘The First Dance’ is completely broken. Activating Shadow Dance should produce 4 combo points, but currently not giving any combo points.

• ‘Shrouded in Darkness’ does not function as written. After casting ‘Shroud of Concealment’ I did not gain any movement speed increases. I guess this is supposed to be the Sub utility spell? I hope not as in a PVE raid environment shroud isn’t used really. And even in M+ dungeons it’s not an absolute requirement, see everyone should have an invis potion.

• ‘Deepening Shadows’ does nothing to reduce the cooldown of Shadow Blades. This talent is also broken.

• ‘Shadowed Finishers’ does not work. It is not providing ANY additional damage to a target that has find weakness active. In testing, Black Powder w/ the find weakness debuff would hit a target for ~1,500 damage. Conversely, Black Powder without the find weakness would hit a target for ~1448 damage. I would expect Black Powder to be hitting for ~2,100 damage with this talent and find weakness on a target, but it’s not.

• Quite frankly, Sepsis is not a good ability for Sub Rogues. At one point it was decent for Assassination in Shadowlands, but I can’t for the life of me understand why this ability keeps showing up on talent trees. I can’t see ANY rogue taking this talent ever, especially with a 1.5 min CD.

• ‘Perforated Veins’ is not stacking up to 3 times for increased backstab damage. Backstab with this talent was doing 2219 after 3+ Shadowstrikes, and was doing 1637 normally. With 3 x stacks of perforated veins, I would expect my backstab to do somewhere around 3300 damage. It appears this talent is only buffing backstab by 35%, or 1 stack.

7 Likes

Even taking talents to further buff sepsis it will only tick 600-900 lol. To be honest I don’t know why they bothered keeping any borrowed power like flag, echo, and sepsis. Should let it die on the ship it came on, none of the spells even feel good. People constantly complain about shadow tech procs messing up cp alignment on echo, sepsis being a press and forget dot, and flag which overloads an already burst heavy class with more burst.

6 Likes

Yeah - I like Sepsis at the moment because of the Toxic Onslaught legendary. But I can’t see myself using Sepsis once that is gone!

Why do we have only three choice nodes, and two of them involve sepsis sepsis. Also why does all three of our specs have sepsis? Wouldn’t it be more logical to just throw it into our class three than to have it littered across 3?

7 Likes

general rogue tree/rogue concerns after playing alpha

-add more choice nodes other than the 1 in assassination and 2 in outlaw rogue has some of the least choice nodes
-side notes having echoing reprimand in the base tree and having a node in both sub and outlaw that does the same thing
-the current options of rogue raid/grp utility although i love being a guaranteed raid spot from a high end raid perspective SUB wouldnt get played because the other 2 bring just better things, putting say the 3% DR posion as an option in the main tree gives all 3 specs the place in raid
-would move the survival row of choices up one row and allow separate tree branching the general pvp spec to play most of the time has been SUB for many expansions now and locking that second charge of shadow dance behind cheat death ( which is has been a staple in PVE ) feels odd
-thistle tea as a button just feels like a dead talent choice most specs even in early goings of expansions arent really that starved for energy that you would need it
-bring back old prey on the weak giving all rogue specs an execute choice ( making assa execute even better)

5 Likes

Rogues don’t see a lot of conversation here and no developer input, so I’d like to get the conversation started again around Shadow Dance and its place in the general Rogue tree.

Personally, I don’t think there’s any way you can have it in the general tree without it being mandatory for both Sub and Outlaw. It’s simply too powerful. I realize it’s a capstone, but it’s an absolutely insane capstone.

For Sub it’s just business as usual, they have 2 charges now and they’d have 2 charges in DF. So they have to go down a specific path to get the same functionality that they have currently because without it their spec feels clunky and slow. No real option, have to do it.

Outlaw gets an even bigger power spike from it, weirdly enough. Because of Count the Odds and Dreadblades you will get a 6-stack of RtB buffs for almost 20 seconds every minute. Plus the actual damage from everything during that window is just straight wild. The only way to balance this is to nerf something else like RtB buffs and that changes the flavor of Outlaw itself.

So what’s the solution? It almost certainly has to be replacing Shadow Dance in the general tree and putting the second charge back into the Sub tree, but that’s where I want to have this conversation. Maybe just replace it with Symbols of Death and it’s still a good capstone. Find Weakness is still a good talent because every spec has ways to get stealth abilities (Outlaw has Audacity and Assasination has Blindside) outside of Vanish to get the benefit. Another option is potentially getting rid of Count the Odds in the Outlaw tree but I’d hate to see that go because it’s a fun ability to use and play off of unless something equally good takes its place.

13 Likes

Without large number tuning at max level because of the need to take shadow dance outlaw just becomes a variation of sub with with no shadow damage.

Most other classes in the class tree have previous major talent choices or covenant abilities as their capstone nodes. Rogue gets outside of ER tea and shadow dance which has been a baseline sub ability. (The second charge is the talent)

Making say a current or previous general rogue legendary effect or even a soulbind ability that is particularly rogue like cause hell warriors got nadja ability dauntless duelist

5 Likes

Shadow Dance does not belong in the Rogue class tree. I get it - “Stealth is fun!” But it’s never been a class ability, it’s been the main feature of Subtlety since it was introduced. Making it available to all 3 specs removes the thing that makes Sub unique and replaces it with nothing.

Tuning down the specs to accommodate a virtually mandatory talent (especially for Sub and Outlaw) in the class tree is not the answer. It was a neat thought but the problems outweigh the benefit. Just return Shadow Dance to the Sub tree and put something class-related in its place, instead of ripping out the defining ability of the spec for the rule of cool.

As an aside, there also seems to be some disconnect between the different class devs on what goes to class vs spec trees. Many other class/general trees are heavily utility-related, with some cap talents being raid buffs or other big utility cds - why is that not the case here? Or is it simply a Pure DPS tax?

Again, this is all something that could be fully answered or at least should be discussed with regular (or ANY) dev communication so we know where their thoughts are on it.

14 Likes

Rogue Class Tree Review

Row 1

  • Shiv - Practically useless if you aren’t sin, baseline
  • Blind - Should be baseline
  • Sap - Should be baseline

Why it feels bad? Because shiv is literally useless if you aren’t assassination, crippling poison application, and a dispel if you have mindnumbing is not enough. Also defeats the purpose of giving shiv to us baseline in SL, just to slap it in our talent tree the next expansion. Then there’s blind and sap, 2 spells that were baseline given to us either by a trainer in the past, or by lvling. It feels awful and cheap to have to pick up these abilities in our tree.

How would I fix it? Make all the spells in this row baseline, and change each of them to something that alters our stealth. Stealth is a rogue’s most thematic spell across the board, when you think of a rogue you think of stealth. It would make sense that our introductory row involves stealth.

Row 2

  • Evasion - Should be baseline
  • Feint - Should be baseline
  • Cloak - Should be baseline

Why it feels bad? Same issues as row 1, all 3 of these spells were baseline spells given to us either by a trainer in the past, or by lvling. It feels awful and cheap to have to pick up these abilities in our tree.

How would I fix it? Make each of these spells baseline, and move this row down near the bottom area of the tree. Then make it these talents alter the effects of cloak, evasion, and feint.

Row 3

  • Master poisoner - Meh, stronger slow for sub is nice. Combining this talent with Virulent poisons and making it 2 points would be nice.
  • Mind Numbing - Kek, make it baseline
  • Nimble fingers - Make it save 5 more energy
  • Gouge - Nice to see it return, will be useful for setting up kills in 3s. Gouge a druid out of form and kidney. Pseudo interrupt as well.
  • Rushed Setup - Nice
  • Tricks - Should be baseline, and should grant dmg for both the rogue and their friend.
  • Shadowrunner - Remove this talent and bake it into Nightstalker

Row 4

  • Imp Wound Poison - Can be decent, 5 stacks of ms is pretty high. Might actually make outlaw and sub MS feel good. Will need to play with it to see how it feels. Though it kinda sucks you need to talent into this to get the full benefit from your wound poison.
  • Fleet footed - Make baseline lol
  • Iron stomach - Eh, can be baked into nimble fingers
  • Imp sprint - Turn this into a freedom, maybe return sprint back to 1 min across the board?
  • Prey on the weak - I like this, assa can get this with internal bleeding as well.
  • Step - Nice, can’t argue with more mobility for assa and outlaw. This is huge for outlaw.
  • Subterfuge - Meh

Row 5

  • Deadened Nerves - I guess? Nice against some of our counters, but it won’t save the day.
  • Recup - Cool to see, buff it up by 1% maybe?
  • Imp sap - Kinda boring, doesn’t really matter for sub since we have Shadowfocus and rushed setup. Maybe have sap not break on bleeds when you select this?

Row 6

  • Deadly Precision - 10% crit on cp generators sounds pretty nice, synergizes well with other talents below to.
  • Virulent Poisons - Slide this into Master poisoner and make it 2 points.
  • Vers - Always nice to have
  • Imp Ambush - Would be nice if it worked with Shadowstrike lol, perhaps have this morph ambush into shadowstrike for each spec?
  • Tight Spender - Free energy = more dmg
  • Nightstalker - Kinda boring, lost its touch over the years, its fine though.

Row 7

  • MFD - Neat, especially since we can have deeper strat with it now. I’ve always just wanted this talent to be baseline though
  • Acrobatic strikes - can be cool for deadzoning
  • Coldblood - I loved this spell in classic, but it doesn’t fit in retail the way it is. Maybe have the next crit do 20% more dmg?

Row 8

  • Leech - 12% leech is kinda neat, especially since we can have cheat death and elusiveness with it
  • Lethality - 30% crit dmg on generators is awesome, cool to see it return
  • Elusiveness - kinda sucks you gotta spec into feint on top of this. It also got nerfed, not really thrilled about this since feint still has a cd
  • Alacrity - Free haste can feel good, won’t really matter for subs play style since you need to afk a lot in stealth.
  • Cheat death - Same with leech, glad to have this

Row 9

  • Seal of fate - I love more cps
  • Vigor - More energy is always nice
  • Echo - Sucks on its own, bake the leggo into it or remove it.
  • Deeper - this with mfd is gonna be spoopy af, especially if you can get 7 cps baseline and 8 second kidney
  • Find weakness - Nice to have for other specs if they could keep it up, wish it was stronger. I also think sub should solely play around this debuff rather than dance alone.

Row 10

  • Thistle tea - I feel like this won’t really matter since there are so many talents that throw cps and energy at you.
  • Imp echo - doesn’t even give the full effect of the lego, and costs 2 points lmfao
  • Dance - kinda cool, feel like it takes away from subs thunder

IMO most of this stuff is super boring, and you have to waste a lot of talents to even pick up something remotely cool. I think the entire talent system across the board is kinda lame, and it feels like were losing more than were “getting.” Especially since everything 80% of the talents is stuff we had in the past or borrowed power.

11 Likes

Shadowed Finishers still bugged
Still only have 1 charge of Dance despite being talented for 2
Flag still doesn’t grant mastery after each finisher
Lingering shadows still only grants 50% back stab damage instead of 100%

6 Likes

Hey all, I’m just posting something from Pushnoir (A very talented rogue player) from EU side to NA side as his post over there has some valid points that I’d love to see implemented and I believe deserve a good reading here. Fair warning, this going to be a long post.

(Post 1 out of 2)

"Hello guys, my name is Pushnoir and I play rogue at a hall of fame level and if viable, preferrably subtlety. I’ve been discussing these trees for weeks now but finally also got alpha so I can test them myself.

This is probably going to be a long post, I will try to keep it within a reasonable text amount. But there’s a lot of feedback to be given about our talent trees.

This post is made with a few PoV’s in mind:

Mainly subtlety spec
PVE only
Raiding focus
Class tree
We got 3 package deals in our class tree, the assa, outlaw and sub route (from left to right). No matter your opinion on this, it can definitely allow for more connections between these 3 sides earlier in the tree. There’s a sweet spot between the “lattice tree” of Warlock/Shaman/Hunter and our “package deal tree”. In my opinion, we are too far into the package deal philosophy as of right now.

Shadow Dance controversy
So I am going to address the elephant in the room right away… Shadow Dance in the class tree. Don’t get me wrong, I think it has some potential to be fun for Outlaw and Assassination, but I don’t even think it’s a grand slam for those 2 specs either. For sub, it’s basically very bad and forces us into going one route to even have a functional spec.

Shadow Dance also has unique interactions with stealth abilities, stealth enhancing abilities and passives, which may or may not be hidden or unknown to the devs. This leads to potentially very OP interactions within assa or outlaw trees (dreadblades + CTO + shadow dance = insane rolls). You’d have to tune either their base dmg or the RTB buffs or the chance to proc CTO, or not allow it to happen in dance… It’s a lot to digest and potentially “fix” if it goes out of hand. Not to mention that Find Weakness is potentially really broken for outlaw, how do you balance it? Do you globally reduce the armor penetration (nerfing assa/sub as well) or do you create another debuff for outlaw only?

My suggestion would be to simply remove Shadow Dance from the class tree (sorry dance partners) and put it in the Subtlety tree where it belongs. It seems like a quite easy fix, you just move the 2nd Shadow Dance charge to where Shadow Blades is in the spec tree and you put Find Weakness where Stiletto Staccato is at the moment. You move Shadow Blades to where Find Weakness was and Stiletto Staccato to where Shadow Dance was (because of dependencies). You change Stiletto Staccato to reduce the CD based on combo points spent and tune it so that Shadow Blades is a 1.5 min cd ish. Shadow Blades is just way less problematic than Shadow Dance and it might become an interesting decision rather than a “we take Shadow Dance on all 3 specs and then invest whatever points we have left anywhere else”-situation. This would require some re-balancing of “stealth abilities” in assa/outlaw, but since the tuning pass is a few weeks/months away, there’s still time to do this.

Shadow Dance is THE identity of subtlety, giving it away to the other 2 specs is a bit weird considering the fact that the other 2 specs isn’t giving away anything even remotely similar. This on top of the fact that subtlety is currently the only rogue spec without raid/group utility is just a big slap in the face of every player that prefers to play subtlety in PVE.

Other problematic/bad nodes
We can discuss the necessity of Cheat Death, I don’t think it’s required to play rogue, but for a lot people it’s something they’re used to playing with and rely on that extra life. So the fact that Cheat Death is far down the “Subtlety side” just piles onto the need to take the sub route. For outlaw and assa, it reaches a point where you’re only 3 points away from getting Shadow Dance, “so why not?”

All in all, the class tree lacks connections, it lacks proper capstone traits (Thistle Tea and Echoing Reprimand are mechanically just very boring or annoying to play with) and it has too many dps nodes. Think about this for a second, having more dps nodes in the class tree wont make you do more or less damage, the tuning pass will attempt to put us in a balanced state regardless. So if we have a lot of dps nodes (more than other classes), each dps node will just be tuned lower. Utility kinda doesn’t function in the same way, it’s harder to balance and offers more interesting choices depending on situation. In most cases, dps nodes are simply a decision made for you by a bot.

So ideally, we’d have less dps nodes in the class tree and more fun/interesting utility options.

Some utility nodes should’ve just been baseline because they are basically required and not very interesting choices, Cloak of Shadows and Feint being 2 big ones. An example of a fun/good utility choice is taking Gouge or not, it requires some sacrifice elsewhere and isn’t always useful, but very good when it is.

If you reached this far, thank you for reading and I hope there will be changes to our tree once the devs are done with Demon hunter (that we share dev with)."

10 Likes

(Post 2 out of 2)

"Hello guys, my name is Pushnoir and I play rogue at a hall of fame level and if viable, preferrably subtlety. I’ve been discussing these trees for weeks now but finally also got alpha so I can test them myself.

This is probably going to be a long post, I will try to keep it within a reasonable text amount. But there’s a lot of feedback to be given about our talent trees.

This post is made with a few PoV’s in mind:

  • Mainly subtlety spec
  • PVE only
  • Raiding focus

Subtlety spec tree
Unless I’ve missed something, subtlety is the only spec in the game with 3 entry points. This kicks off what is a very thematically interesting tree (the feedback I’ve seen is that a lot of people vibe with the “Spellblade” theme). However, the tree has some very big issues. These are the ones I’ve identified thus far.

No Shadow Dance sub
Probably one of my biggest issues with the tree right now is the placement of Shadow Dance, you can simply not take this node and still progress the tree. You do not play Subtlety without Shadow Dance unless there is a plan to make 0 dance sub a thing through a substantial rework.

Lack of connections
Just like the class tree, our spec tree is very locked into 3 different routes and it’s even worse than the class tree. We choose the side we want to traverse right after the first gate and after that we’re locked into continuing down that route or start over elsewhere.

Because of how locked we are, we have to take things like a very nerfed version of Shadow Blades, which a lot of us probably wants to skip, but it’s literally impossible at the moment if you want a functional spec (Shadow dance CDR is below Shadow Blades). This is made even worse when we have to take 2 points into making this currently very weak ability 1.5 min CD instead of 3 minutes.

A possible solution to this specific problem would be to put Stiletto Staccato where either Master of Shadows or First Dance are currently. Then make a connection between Shadow Techniques and Deepening Shadows and also between Veiltouched and Deepening. Put either Master of Shadows or First Dance where Stiletto Staccato is.

Dependency issues
You can currently take Shadow Blades and Stiletto Staccato without taking Shadow Techniques, which means that the 2 points in Stiletto Staccato are completely useless and do nothing.

You can take Perforated Veins without taking Shadow Dance, this doesn’t completely break “PV”, but it means you get 1 stack every 2 minutes… Probably not intended. This whole thing is also related to a bigger issue of being able to build a sub spec that doesn’t take Shadow Dance, which is simply not something that should be possible unless you want to completely rework the entire spec.

No raid or group utility
In an alpha where it seems that every single spec in the game is getting either group or raid utility of some sort, it’s very strange that subtlety is the only spec that doesn’t have it.

And nope, the “Shroud roar” is not a thing, it does not work in combat for anyone except the rogue that’s using the shroud (and it requires you to use a Shadow Dance charge to pull it off and only for 9 seconds instead of the total 15). This talent node might as well not exist, the only time it’s useful is for indoors m+/raid trash skipping, ridiculously niche.

Either we have to get some kind of utility or this spec will not be seeing a lot of play in any content. It’s kinda upsetting that this even made it into the game, I’d prefer to be excited about the expansion, rather than it being me saying good bye to my favourite spec because of some weird decision to not give it raid or group utility.

The 3 pillars of the sub tree
So the idea is that the left side is “builder and symbol enhancing talents”, the middle part is basically “core subtlety things” like Shadow Dance, Shadow Blades and Deepening Shadows, the right side seems to be “AoE and finishers”.

So for me personally, the left side is very uninteresting because buffing builders is just not fun, unless said builder can frequently do big hits based on planning properly, and from what it looks like it’s not even close to that. Symbols also got nerfed and you have to take 3 entire talents just to make it do something that’s somewhat interesting (extension + global crit increase).
Sadly this side does have the most interesting talent on the entire tree; Invigorating Shadowdust, it’s basically the only talent that changes our rotation in a meaningful way. Now if it also worked on Vanish it would have some cool interactions with the 2 charge Vanish talent. But that’s wishful thinking.

The middle route just feels completely mandatory, a non-choice basically. Only Lingering Shadows and Shadow Mist are actual choices.

The right side (pun intended) from Replicating Shadows and down is basically just “sub in a tree”, it has talents that basically just makes our spec work. I cannot see a sub build that doesn’t take Shadowed Finishers, are you just going to do around 50% less damage on all your finishers on FW targets? These talents aren’t necessarily interesting, they just make the spec work and therefore feels mandatory.

Dead or awful talents
“It’s too early to say that something is dead”. Actually no, it isn’t. Because unless the talent is completely changed to what it is on live and how strong it is on live through massive tuning, some of these talents will just never be used for anything and is only in the tree to create “fluff”, basically symmetry reasons or illusion of choice.

  • “Shot in the Dark” is way too expensive to ever consider for anything except PVP and probably not even then
  • Shrouded in Darkness, extremely niche, does almost nothing, just here to fill a talent node position
  • Secret Technique is very bland, very bad and awkward to use because of it’s extremely minimal aoe range (5 yards around your target). Basically this talent could get a 100% dmg buff and would still be worse than just spamming Black Powder. Currently Secret Technique is a massive dps loss to use on any target count, the fact this made it into the tree without seeing change is astonishing. Basically also just here to fill a talent node position
  • Backstab + Storm FW, spending 2 talent points just to get “some crit” on our 2 weakest builders and to enable their Find Weakness spreading is also just very boring, why isn’t Find Weakness just baseline at this point? Considering our damage is reliant on replicating our finishers based on our target having Find Weakness or not
  • First Dance, “4 combo points on Shadow Dance use”, why is it 4? Why does it do nothing else but just give 4 combo points? Very boring talent and possibly awkward to play with considering it means we either overcap or pre-build which means we are using less Shadowstrikes. All-in-all just quite bland/weak mechanically. The definition of a “fluff talent”
  • Master of Shadows, this talent has been weak since Shadow Dance went from a 5 second duration to 8 and now 9. It covers the point of dance where we already swim in energy (because we can pool or use Symbols of Death for a 40 energy boost). So this talent basically does nothing and will probably never be picked unless reworked into being a longer duration or something completely different
  • Cloaked in Shadows, while it may have some use for an extremely niche situation where you might need a 30% hp shield (basically never) to live something that no one else can and you don’t have Cheat Death (or this dmg event breaks your cheat) or Cloak of Shadows available, it’s very niche and also competes with dps talents deep into the tree
  • Perforated Veins, there is some potential change coming to this talent, but as it stands it seems like an extremely weak version of the Shadowlands conduit. We will never use these stacks within Dance unless backstab is just buffed to the moon, which means that this talent is basically giving you (in current backstab alpha numbers) 1 hit of 3000 dmg at the end of each Shadow Dance, which might happen 10x in a fight so perhaps 30k dmg over 5 minutes, basically less than 1 Rupture application and 1 Sepsis use
  • Shadow Mist, this is getting changed (thank god) and the combo point minigame is getting removed (thank the lord). But right now it seems awful and since it doesn’t give you a free Shadowstep charge, you might just not even get a Shadowstep from consuming this mist. Needs a complete rework in my opinion

This was a lot and might seem overly negative, but trust me, I have only included the ones I personally think are actually just terrible. The reality is that most of our talent nodes don’t change how we play the spec at all, they are mostly passive damage increases that just make us do the “basic sub rotation” more efficiently.

Current subtlety alpha bugs
Just a list of things that are currently broken on the alpha which means we cannot test the spec properly.

  • Backstab doesn’t apply Find Weakness
  • Shuriken Storm doesn’t apply Find Weakness
  • Shadowstep is not working at all on enemies and half the time on friendly players/NPCs
  • Shadow Dance is locked at 1 charge, basically making the spec “unplayable”
  • Gloomblade is not working at all, the icon changes, the sound of the ability changes, but it’s still Backstab in the combat log and doesn’t do shadow or more damage
  • First Dance does nothing
  • Stiletto Staccato does nothing
  • Shrouded in Darkness does nothing
  • Shadowed Finishers does nothing
  • Replicating Shadows is still not implemented
  • Deeper Stratagem does nothing if you’ve taken the one in the class tree already
  • Flagellation: Stacking part does not give you any mastery or any stat at all
  • Perforated Veins does nothing
  • Invigorating Shadowdust is not working on all abilities, Cold Blood being one of them
  • The Rotten does nothing
  • Lingering Shadow is only working as if you used 1 point in it. The buff is also very bugged/weird and it does inconsistent damage based on what the Backstab did. Currently it doesn’t drop a single stack until it reaches 7 seconds left on the buff and after that it’s dropping 6% each second until its depleted. The talent itself reads as “0.4% each second” but it’s not even close to doing that

As you can see, not a lot of things are working, so what we’re testing on the alpha atm is a husk of what the spec is, which means it’s very hard to actually test how it plays with these talents and give proper feedback of how it feels. I realize that our dev is currently very busy with basically reworking Demon hunter, but someone should fix these bugs so we can at least test the specs already in the game.

A lot of this feedback comes off as very negative and I hate to be negative, but I feel it’s necessary when so many things are off or weird or simply bad. I feel like the spec is moving in the right direction when it comes to the amount of Shadow Dance uptime, focus on finisher damage instead of Shadowstrike and the whole shadow damage theme is neat."

Thanks all for reading Push’s post if you’ve gotten down here. Means a lot to me and to him to have this spread around to bring some light to Sub.

10 Likes

The argument about Shadow Dance being the identity for Sub didn’t even occur to me (I mostly play Outlaw), but it’s a big one that makes a lot of sense. Putting that in the general tree is like putting Roll the Bones/Pistol Shot or Deadly Poison/Envenom in there. Shadow Dance and Shadowstrike are THE defining Sub abilities. Even if they could be balanced I wouldn’t want them there.

Since they seem determined to give all three specs Sepsis, why not put it in that spot? It plays off of the stealth portion of the right side of the tree also. I’d prefer Serrated Bone Spike myself because it’s just a more fun ability, but that’s wishful thinking and I don’t have a good argument for why it fits there.

17 Likes

I honestly really dislike the talent trees after playing Arms warrior. If you want you can spec into a Whirlwind build that makes it cost 60 rage, puts it on a 15 second cd, but buffs the dmg by 200%. Then you can have other talents that synergize with it so you could effectively use it in both single target and aoe situations. Rogue gets nothing interesting like that.

I feel like a lot of the talents for rogue just overloads an already burst heavy class with more burst. For example were getting cold blood, a spell that makes our next spell a crit. But something like this is soooooo 2005 and it doesn’t even feel good to press. Especially for sub, it just complicates our burst and it’s more annoying to press than anything. It would feel a lot better if it effected 2 globals rather than 1, or if it buffed the crit damage of your crit global. It’s just annoying for sub because it’s just more bs you need to track and have lined up for your burst.

8 Likes

So, this note from the latest Warlock blue post seems like it should be particularly applicable to us here.

By removing excess throughput from the Core tree, we have more freedom to funnel it into the specialization trees and focus on amplifying each specialization’s rotation.

Please let what/whenever the next pass is for Rogues take this approach as well. The actual blue post details are exactly what we’re asking for: explaining what’s changing and why based on feedback and discussion.

Feel free to copy+paste and replace “Rogues” with “Druids” or “Priests” as needed. :upside_down_face:

10 Likes

True, there’s a lot of stuff that should either be straight up baseline, changed, removed, or baked into existing talents. Also why do all of our specs have sepsis in the tree? Why do we have no choice nodes? Why are we getting thistle tea when we have so many talents that feeds us more energy and cps?

10 Likes
12 Likes

It appears I’m in the minority here, but I think Shadow Dance in the class tree makes for interesting gameplay for non-sub rogues.

Sub still has the identity of having two charges. Sub also seems to be getting two charges of vanish and the shadowdust legendary effect (currently an outlaw legendary)

I think the “master of shadows” identity is maintained for sub. Having the option to dabble into stuff you otherwise wouldn’t be able to is, in my eye, largely the point of these trees.

Much of the discussion has been centered around PvE, but from a PvP perspective, doing things like giving everyone dance and gouge shakes things up and is interesting.

I do both forms of content, just PvP’d more recently.

3 Likes

It’s kinda lame that sub rogues are pigeon holed down the right side of our class tree period.

7 Likes

I don’t really play sub enough, especially not in PvE, to be able to comment. I play outlaw in PvE and outlaw/assa in pvp.

So I’ll leave the discussion around what feels pidgeon-holey from a pve perspective to you.

1 Like