Feedback: Rogues

Excited to see these changes! New CttC is great, and the new pathing in the Sin tree with regard to the AoE nodes makes me excited to get back into dungeon testing. Class tree really got the facelift we were asking for, and I hope the buff to Thistle Tea plays out well. All in all some good updates that I’m eager to see pushed onto the Beta realms, thank you!

Not sure I’m tracking here. I don’t believe it was compulsory. Granted, we will never know for sure because it was always NYI. But a lot of streamers I saw talking about the Outlaw tree actually went down other paths and not through Heavy Hitter.

2 Likes

I like that there’s a lot more interconnectedness at the top of the class tree now. Will have to mess with it more when its in game or on a calculator to actually get a better idea on specifics. Still think some of the main abilities like Sap could just be baseline and move some of the generic utility from spec trees into the class tree to fill any voids. There’s also still zero paths to go from Shiv straight to shadow dance, and Sap straight to thistle tea, which makes the end result still feel quite restricting.

Nothing really to say for Leeching poison and Deeper Stratagem. Good and welcomed changes.

Still don’t like the idea of Shadow Dance being in the class tree, but its a good middle ground if a replacement is out of the question this late into the beta cycle. Making Shadow Dance baseline for Sub already shows some acknowledgement that it is a core ability to the spec, and throwing it into the class tree as well doesn’t make much sense outside of “this would be cool to play with.” It really doesn’t feel like it lends to the “general” rogue class theme and essentially plays like a 1min CD Vanish with built in subterfuge. Also, while the base flat damage increase was removed from the talent itself, there’s still no way to avoid taking Nightstalker, so the damage increase still exists, but in another form.

Thistle Tea is just something I despise in every shame and form. Design, functionality, theme and flavor, just not a fan. I feel like this is just trying really hard to keep an outdated nostalgic item that just simply doesn’t fit into the gameplay of modern WoW. The Mastery buff seems to lend to the idea of using Thistle Tea during your cooldown window, but conflicts with the idea of giving 100 energy because you’re already mostly energy capped during your cooldowns as is. For being a capstone talent, it reads and plays more like a trinket. In general, I think this node needs to be some sort of passive considering our other 2 capstones are also active abilities. We’re also seeing a bit of button bloat when combined with our spec trees (at least for Assassination) with all the new and returning active abilities. I’m not against more buttons, I find too little to be a bit boring as well, but there’s definitely a line where it becomes too much. It’s also hard to see assassination’s tree not take at least 1 or 2 of their new active abilities in their spec tree to be competitive in any form. At least having the choice of a passive capstone in the class tree makes the most sense to me.

One idea I’ve seen that I’ve started to like more and more is moving Dashing Scoundrel (energy gain on poison crits) to Thistle Tea’s spot, and replacing Dashing with either the increased poison crit chance portion of envenom only or another talent entirely. This solves the problem of current Dashing being exponentially more powerful for the first point without becoming a major balancing problem for the remaining 2. In the place of old Dashing Scoundrel, you could possibly use some form of Sinister Calling to read:
"Envenom also increases the critical strike chance of your poisons by x/y/z%

When your poisons crit, you also twist the blade, causing causing all Bleed effects (or maybe just Rupture or even Deadly Posion instead?) to advance by 2 sec, triggering an instant tick."

As for Spec trees, I mainly play Assassination and haven’t really kept up to date on Outlaw or Sub to comment, so I’ll just make a few comments for Assassination. The Cut to the Chase change is great, but still worry that it’d lose out to other throughput talents as this mainly serves as a much needed quality of life. Personally, I feel this just needs to be baseline like it is now, or go even further to take the WoD trait having SnD passive at all times. Perhaps CttC could be passive and the talent could make it the WoD always on passive? All the other pathings look great and can’t wait to play around with them. My only remaining criticisms of the spec tree are the 3 point nodes before the capstones and Seal fate being in the class tree.

3 Point nodes are something being removed across the board, but have been confirmed as of now to be staying in the assassination tree. Their only purpose is to prevent taking Dragon-tempered blade and Kingsbane together, but that could be solved much more easily by making them a choice node and not having detrimental effects on the rest of the tree. If we can’t figure out a replacement capstone, we could just separate the Sepsis/Serrated Bone Spike choice node, moving Sepsis to the capstone and leaving SBS where it is.

As for Seal Fate, this is just a core Assassination gameplay system. Playing without this just feels bad, and outright laughably bad/impossible in AoE scenarios with how Fan of Knives was essentially designed with it in mind. Not only is this in the class tree, but it’s 1 step above the capstone, assumingly to make it a hard node to reach for the other 2 specs. This is a large investment cost for what should be baseline or at least one of the first few talents in the spec tree and restricts a lot of choice for assassination in the class tree, similar to how Shadow Dance is restrictive to Sub.

11 Likes

Well, RiP Deeper Stratagem… for Assass anyway…

Was nice having it for a few weeks on alpha…

Damn these are incredible, I’d like to retract my naysaying post I posted prior, this is basically everything I wanted to see happen.

Only thing left at least on the Outlaw front is bug fixing and tuning which I’ll be able to start as soon as the next build comes out!

2 Likes

For outlaw, having both shadow step (from the class tree) and grappling hook as two different spells is very awkward. Could we have the shadow step from class tree convert into another charge of grappling hook if it is taken?

7 Likes

much like when specced into survival as a hunter goes from counter shot to muzzle. would be that simple

So is it intended for 2 x deeper stratagems not stacking to 7 combo points or is it bugged like many other talents that supposed to give another charge but didn’t?

2 Likes

I have to echo this. Heavy hitter was very cool. For people who don’t like anima-charged combo points, there are other builds available in the tree…

I think changing this to a random passive is a misstep

4 Likes

Please do not do this. For PvE this may seem fine, but for PvP having step as an outlaw is amazing.

5 Likes

I think there was something too be said for how the ambush procs would give you an animacharged combopoint along with dance…

I also think there was a world in which maybe you could try out dropping echoing reprimand but keeping heavy hitter…

There were a variety of options created by having the playstyle both in the class tree and in the outlaw tree

Just finished reviewing the last update;

All in all looking good, wish Sin’s 3 point nodes would go down to 2, almost all 3 point nodes feels bad and were removed in other classes for that reason.

Still not sure why the capstones are so funneled however, but the extra connections mid will greatly help in making more interesting choices. As it stands if a capstone is not interesting we are quite discouraged from spending points on that branch at all.

Lastly; Sub tree; please do not force Blind to take Feint. Not sure why Blind is even a requirement for anything at all, its a very nice ability to have access to but feels terrible to need it to have feint and path down.

6 Likes

Edit: Please remove the shadowdust effect from pvp or tune it back to 10s in pvp.

Are we absolutely sure we want to give sub rogues shadowdust… you know… that legendary that made outlaw the most broken spec in pvp…

We’re SURE we want to do that with not one but two vanishes…

For a spec that already defines itself by having tons of cc and burst damage in kill windows and is staple for the most successful arena comp in wow’s history…

4 Likes

As for Echoing Reprimand… I despise the mini-game, so much. But glad its there for those that like it. However I’d rather something universally liked take its place. Many already voiced opinions, but choice node with Flag could be a fun alternative imo, as both were back and forth throughout SL.

Flag in spec trees is cool but would make more sense in the class tree imo

3 Likes

As for Echoing Reprimand… I despise the mini-game, so much. But glad its there for those that like it. However I’d rather something universally liked take its place. Many already voiced opinions, but choice node with Flag could be a fun alternative imo, as both were back and forth throughout SL.

They added Reverb (unsure about the dmg amp) as a choice node with Resounding Clarity now, so you can make it just do a bunch of damage instead, I think that’s good enough if you don’t like the minigame.

(Personally I think you SHOULD like the minigame, it’s probably the most interesting and gameplay altering builder we have, unless you only play assassination)

Yet Slice and Dice still exists.
It’s not fun to use and the effect given from SnD should be baseline in some way, shape, or form. Not another keybind, and especially not a spender.

Just remove it all together and make it baseline.

16 Likes

I’m team anima charge over here. It’s interesting, it’s dynamic and it allowed for planning of combo point spending. Heavy hitter looked fantastic and interesting with the combination of Find weakness - > Free Ambush build.

It only feels bad when there’s random CP Generation abilities (tornado trigger, sub auto attack CP generation).

That being said, the new design is going to synergize with greenskin wickers. At first I was not an enjoyer of Fan the hammer but when you combine it with dreadblades it feels fantastic.

2 Likes

Hello again, Zlaer,
It’s a definitely nice to see those changes and more connections are surely welcome, but there’s still few more issues with the general tree specifically I still wish to see them changed.

As a longtime rogue player since 2008 I want give as much objective view as I could.

  • Connections:
    After the latest change, the general tree definitely looks better, but there’s still issue with both Cold Blood and MfD/DS talents being locked behind 2pt nodes. I just keep feeling that I’m limited here with choice as I always have to pick Alacrity if i want MfD, even tho I would rather spend the 2 points elsewhere. Can’t we have connections to those talents from both leeching and soothing darkness aswell so we can skip Alacrity/Lethality for those two specifically?

  • Talent issues:
    I want to talk about few talents, that feels weird in the tree and one of them is:

Seal Fate
This should be passive baseline for assassination as it was always somehow part of its toolkit and the gameplay with combo points generation is very much dependant on it. I doubt anyone wouldn’t pick this talent as assassination, so why keep in the tree?

Nightstalker
After the last changes it was swapped with Tight spender, thus making it mandatory to get down into the right side of the tree. This talent doesn’t make much sense as both outlaw and assa doesn’t spend time in stealth or have shadow dance, and if you won’t pick Shadow Dance capstone, its practically two wasted talent points.
Solution: As it was said before by Nahj, one of the solutions is to swap Nightstalker with Relentless strikes from the sub tree, as RS is much more useful talent for all three spec and was more or less picked by everyone in the past expansions, to balance this out, remove Tight Spender in the process.

Find Weakness
This talent does make sense if you pick Shadow Dance and its worth for sub and outlaw, but for assassination it has almost no use, as assa already bypasses armor with poisons and envenom so in the end its not very useful. more about it later.
Solution: My suggestion is to change it to Master of subtlety - after coming out of stealth, your abilities do 5% more damage for 5 seconds.

Deeper Stratagem
Please reconsider making Kidney Shot unaffected by Deeper as it is broken in PvP. leaving it only for damaging finishers.

Cold Blood
This talent just doesn’t fit into the modern game, it has low value over other choices and little to zero addition to dps. It’s just an anachronism from old WoW.
Solution: Replace it with Blood of the Enemy (BFA Azerite trait) or Hunger for Blood.(Wotlk), or make it to guarantee crits from dots finishers and sepsis.

  • Capstone talents
    I still don’t believe any of those endpoint talents can beat shadow dance thus I have few suggestions as to what could replace them.

Thistle Tea: Even with the mastery change its just awful talent to use that doesn’t fit to the current game.
Solution - replace it with Shadow Reflection (WoD)

Echoing Reprimand: I can count people who like this combo point mini-game on one hand. Its another awful talent that almost nobody like to use, the only reason why it’s so popular in Shadowlands is that its too powerful in PvP than others and only for sub and outlaw. Its probably the worst talent for assa to pick.
Solution - replace it with Serrated Bone Spike and replace Resounding Clarity with Bone Spike Legendary effect. Add Flagellation to Assa tree along with Sepsis as a choice node instead.

Shadow Dance: The nerfed version is good change to not make it so powerful with other choices, but still I think that Shadow Dance doesn’t make sense in the tree, atleast for Assassination as it doesn’t fit to its gameplay at all. You will probably spam ambush, or garrote and get energy starved after 2-3 hits, which makes half of the dance useless.
Solution - replace it with Shadow Blades, which can find more use in all three specs.

Now i have few notes to Assassination tree issues:

  • Slice and Dice
    Please reconsider removing this ability, as it is another anachronism from the old WoW that doesn’t make sense and even does not fit into the current playstyle anymore. We don’t need any more maintenance buffs that does basically nothing except auto attack numbers. There was a very good reason why this was moved to Passive in the WoD and later removed. Keeping it here just for nostalgic feel is just dumb.
    Solution: Change Cut to the Chase to make SnD passive or remove it entirely. Please stop balancing assassination around auto attack damage anachronism.

  • Blindside/Ambush
    Please reconsider returning old Dispatch execute ability from MoP expansion.
    Ambush, apart from stealth has really no use and thus its useless.
    Having Blindside is great, but making Ambush/Dispatch active ability again to be usable at 35% of target’s health as an execute ability with Blindside giving chance to procs will make assassination real execute spec, more smooth and fun once more.

Final Thoughs:
Please reconsider lowering 3 point nodes into 2 or single points in the Assassination tree.

Please reconsider Making Poison Bomb active ability and maybe place it as a choice node with Crimson Tempest, to be poison vs bleed aoe theme.

Please consider buffing Kingsbane as right now its very weak capstone ability and still bugged.
Please consider returning Vendetta as a choice node with Deathmark.
Please tweak Deathmark for PvP to not be dispellable by bleed dispeling spells.

Thats all,
thanks for your time.

12 Likes

Have to agree with this. I love the echoing reprimand gameplay, but I’m all for choice, and this seems very reasonable. Flag has been good for outlaw/sub throughout SL. Sepsis is really more of an assa thing… kinda weird to see sepsis in the sub and outlaw trees

Presenting a choice between flag and echoing reprimand in the class tree while putting sepsis in the spec tree for assa could be good

2 Likes

Agreed, if button bloat is a concern, this should be on the chopping block.

2 Likes