Feedback: Rogues

  1. Leeching Poison >>Atrophic poison and Mind numbing

Both of these talents are useless, replace leeching poison with atrophic poison. And we can also replace numbing poison with improved wound poison, which is the best thing.

  1. Shadow Reflection >>Thistle tea

You have completely forgotten the old and widely used talents of rogue, burst of speed, combat readiness, nerve strikes, shadow reflection, these talents are among the best, but no one remembers them.
thistle tea This talent is completely useless for the two spec subtlety and outlaw because they don’t need much energy, we can replace this talent with shadowy reflection, this way we have a lot of options to choose the last row of our talent.

3.Combat Readiness>>Blackjack or Leeching poison

We can replace the old talent Combat readiness with leeching poison.

  1. Black Jack>>Nerve strike

The new black jack talent that we had in the cataclysm patch is not very useful. Replace it with the nerve strike talent that we had in the Pandaria patch.

  1. Alcarity>>MFD and DS

Alacrity talent doesn’t have much use for subtlety talent and it’s not a good place and you just need to move it with the mfd and ds row, many people are not satisfied with the place of these two talents.

6.Burst of Speed>>1Charge Shadowstep or As a pvp talent

This is just a suggestion to replace the old mop talent burst of speed with 1 charge of shadow step or add it to the talent as a pvp talent.

  1. Subtlety PvP Talents

PVP talents of outlaw assassination are not a problem, but the subtlety of these two PVP talents are very useless (Distracting margin and thief bargain)
We need the Phantom assassin talent back that we had in Legion and replace Distracting margin
Thief bargain talent, which has become even more useless since elusiveness was nerfed, please return the old thief bargain to us.

Picture of talents.
imgur com/a/x1ASTzi >>couldnt link here so put . before com

Thank you :wink:

2 Likes

I like every change in this recent post. Thank you.

My biggest concern at this point is the low interconnectivity between the three main lanes. The three lanes I’m referring to are Fleet Footed → Thistle Tea, Improved Sprint → Resounding Clarity, and Shadowstep → Shadow Dance. I assume this is already on yall’s radar but I’ll go into detail.

If I want Shadow Dance, there are 6 nodes above that I must take, i.e. no branch nodes. Every other class tree has a branch node 1-3 rows above their capstones, but for Rogue you have to go 6 rows up.

Another way to look at it: most classes (8/13) can start at the top-left and end up at the bottom-right. The classes who can’t are Druid and Shaman (which have 4 starting nodes, so they are wider) and DH and Evoker (which have convenient mid-tier nodes that can always be selected)… and then Rogue.

I feel this severely limits build freedom/creativity and I would be sad to see a talent tree hit launch like this. I know that adding more interconnections will complicate things and undo some of the work that has already gone in. But I really do think the current tree needs it.

8 Likes

Logged on beta to put all the points in considering these changes… I like it

Mid/Left builds can have Thistle Tea, Cold Blood, Marked for Death / Deeper Stratagem and still have 1 point to spare.

I think we’re getting close to a final form here, well done.

The recuprator talent, which is considered to be one of the last talents, should have more impact. 1% every two seconds is not interesting at all, it should be more effective, something like 4% every two seconds, and the cold blood talent is too old in my opinion. The next two finishers should be crit, much more interesting also You did the best thing by changing lethality to 2 points. If alacrity is replaced with mfd and ds, many people’s problems will be solved.

Alacrity is probably better served as a “main highway” talent than as some sort of side choice. Its just a sink in points to get what comes after it, really. That said, something like Nightstalker is much better suited as a choice to take or not take. But maybe alacrity doesn’t really belong in the right side of the tree anyway.

Also, I don’t think the current iteration of Cold Blood really compares to Deeper or MFD as a side choice talent.

Besides that I think it makes sense to balance the sides of the tree to have comparable expense, in talents, as well as roughly how effective they are. I think that just reinforces the choice element.

Oh and Thistle Tea as a capstone talent seems a bit lame, in my opinion. Its got some sentimental/nostalgic value but the game has come a long way since the first iteration of thistle tea and I think we could do a lot better to make an interesting capstone

4 Likes

After having slept on these changes and given them some more thought, I think we are moving much closer to a place where the class tree is actually quite interesting.

Cheat Death being moved to further up the tree in the middle and as a choice node with Elusiveness was one of the changes i really wanted to see (sorry lads). I think choosing between either cheating death or just having a giga defensive on a 15 second CD is a very compelling and reasonable choice node.

Blackjack, now I was kinda upset about this when i first read it, like why do we need yet another sap/blind talent to block the way. But the more I think about it, the more I can see some usage of this talent. For one it’s great in PVP, no reason has to be given there. Secondly it does introduce quite unique utility, what other class can reduce 1 mobs dmg by 30% this easily? It’s like an inverted defensive and is potentionally very strong. However, perhaps it should be an option to take this? Situational for m+ or a raid boss with hard hitting adds.

Although this is a weaker version of Soothing Darkness (doesn’t work on baseline Stealth), I like to see it return and this horizontal row now makes a lot more sense across the board with Leeching/Recup/Soothing.

Alacrity and Lethality being reduced to 2 points is a welcome change, but I think the node you unlock by taking these are currently kinda weak. Cold Blood is very undertuned at a 45 second CD, it’s basically only useful in PVP. MFD/Deeper is a good choice node, there’s a reason why these are separated on live, they kinda don’t make sense together. I understand there’s some PVP frustations about being forced into Alacrity, not sure how to fix that. Alacrity is not bad for subtlety in PVE (for pure ST) so this would be a PVP only thing.

Resounding Clarity being a 1 point node that gives you the full benefit of the old legendary effect is amazing. ER suddenly looks like an actually interesting option. But as you mentioned, I’ve heard people that do not want to play with the “minigame” of hitting the CPs. So adding Reverberation AND perhaps the small aoe dmg/CDR effect to it would be a solid option for those that just wants to pick ER for it’s damage. It’s obviously going to be worse numerically, but at least there’s an option to make it do something more than the baseline, which is honestly quite bland.

Remaining issues

  • Cold Blood replacement or rework, this is currently just way too weak and boring. I imagine that if it was ever made good it’s just going to be something you macro to your biggest dmg ability (typically eviscerate, dispatch or envenom), assuming it wont work on dots
  • Thistle Tea being weak at best, boring at worst. I am actually of the opinion that I think it’s fine if not all 3 capstones are good for every spec so like Subtlety will almost never want Thistle Tea, Assa will never want ER and Outlaw will probably also never want Thistle Tea. So I don’t think there’s any need to make all 3 capstones giga for each spec, no other class tree has this, so why would rogue. HOWEVER, this is also just boring for the 1 spec that might use it, give it some additional effect and perhaps re-distribute the energy gained over time or something
  • Connections, I know this word is getting used at a very high rate at the moment. It’s also an agenda being driven by a lot of the community, that we have to “have the same design as other classes”. While i agree to some extent, we do not need a spiderweb of connections. I am honestly only looking for 2 more connections:
    Virulent Poisons to Vigor, this means you can skip all the builder crit/builder dmg if you want by skipping Deadly Precision and Lethality.
    Tight Spenders to Improved Ambush, same idea here, you can skip Nightstalker and still get Improved Ambush for any outlaw non-dance builds or whatever.
    But the main thing you gain with these 2 connections is a way to go from middle to either side, which makes more sense now that Cheat Death is in the middle.

I think the class tree is way better with some of the power distribution to the middle, however, it still needs more work. This was a much better iteration compared to the one we got last week, which was a step back, this is probably 2-3 steps forward and we’re getting close to something that I personally can find fun to play with.

9 Likes

new blackjack is fine and all but, get it out of the way for all thats good. Same problem Improved Sap was, it feels extremely bad to path through that thing even now. Its situational as you said, so why is it mandatory to take to path down?

Echoing Reprimand… I’m sorry but this needs to be off the tree. I’M glad some people like it I guess, but the points investment will make it either taken 100% of the time (good bye forever left side of the tree), or never, cause I really don’t think its a fun mechanic to carry over.

I fully understand if some have different opinions! I simply really do not like the supercharge combo points mechanics (especially since Sub can reach 7 CP on their own now)

7 Likes

If Elusiveness is going to return to competing with Cheat Death it should be returned to its former glory of 30% I think. It really feels like it was nerfed to 20% to compensate for its potential coexistence with Cheat Death in conjunction with the 10% Evasion DR, but losing Cheat for a now weaker Elusiveness will probably make the talent see even less use than it does currently.

11 Likes

Most of the rogue changes look pretty good going into Dragonflight. As a longtime rogue though I wish we were getting not just dmg amps or changes to how we do damage.

I know I’m going to get flamed “rogues already have so much utility!” but I want some fun situational things to do again.

Crazy ideas: Maybe a step heal that could save someone who is about to die. Or a taunt evasion button, I really miss the double evasion kills where I was the last man standing and saved the raid kill. Or maybe stealth traps we could setup but only from stealth.

Some of the most exciting things for me the last few years were the talk of getting smoke bomb back from Ion and the talk in beta of Shadowlands of getting buffs to crimson vial by pickpocketing reagents of some sort. Both of those things didn’t happen sadly.

Again like most of the changes, just sad there is no spark.

Silk

2 Likes

Maybe even an outlaw only talent Die with Honor: if you die with the boss under 10% after hitting the button it buffs your raid with dmg or a dr or some healing. Agian just want something fun.

(especially since Sub can reach 7 CP on their own now)

Quite irrelevant for the ER/RC value. The reason why the anima CPs are good is because you spend 2 CPs and get the value of 7, so effectively a 5 cp gain. This is repeated on each ACP, so we have 5-4-3-2 = 14 cps gained from 1 ER use on 45 sec cd.
Compare this to MFD which is 30 sec CD for sub and 5 cps gained (+ it does no damage).

ER+RC is just really efficient combo points, the damage from a 7 cp finisher is completely irrelevant, it’s all about the cooldown reduction to dance, CP proc effects (banshee dagger/current 4p) and energy refund based on CP spent from relentless.

1 Like

Yep thats fair, as mentioned in the discord, it just feels like no one talks about if the ability is fun, which I don’t think it is, but the only thing we can do is check if the numbers adds up, regardless if its a fun button to press or not

3 Likes

A little bird hinted that we might see a sub rogue blue post this upcoming week with some changes to the spec tree.

So i felt compelled to just make a “short” wishlist of things I’d like to see added/removed.

Ranked from top to bottom in what i think is most important.

  • Make Shadow Dance the central point of the tree, you HAVE to take this node if you’re going to play subtlety, that should be clear to everyone and not skippable like it is now
  • Remove Stiletto Staccato - Blades was nerfed to make room for baseline builders to do a bit more damage or to move damage away from Blades and into other things. As a consequence, the 2 points we have to spend in Stiletto Staccato are incredibly low value. Not to mention that 2 sec per shadow tech proc isn’t even going to bring it to 1:30 which i think the intention is, somewhere around 1:45 is where it’s going to land. Either remove or spare us from the headache of the CDR being tied to auto attacks and just make it 45/90 sec reduced CD
  • Or change Stiletto Staccato to make your Blades also convert 15/30% of auto attack damage to shadow. This is a quite modest node as well, but it has some neat interaction with AA’s in that we can’t miss the boss during the CD, some synergy with shadow tech etc
  • Remove or move Rotten down from a capstone position, it’s not very mechanically interesting, just a boring node, not befitting of a capstone
  • Replace Rotten with Goremaws Bite:
    Lashes out at the target, inflicting (170% + 170%) Shadow damage and reducing movement speed by 60% for 6 sec. Grants 10% increased Shadow Damage done for 6 seconds. 30 second CD to line it up with every Symbols of Death window
  • Give Secret Technique the interactions it deserves, let it be on Shadowed Finishers and Finality - Remove the “clone” mechanic, it’s kinda pointless and just creates confusion, also it’s more fun to see 1 big number than 3 small ones. Swap Secret Technique placement with Shuriken Tornado
  • Redesign Perforated Veins to have a total stack cap of 10 stacks but it can only consume 3 per stab. Basically the Maelstrom Weapon treatment. This ensures you wont be pushed to Backstab in dance and it gives it some synergy with Lingering Shadows
  • Swap Shadowdust placement with Lingering Shadows and redesign Lingering Shadows to also give the buff from Vanish
  • Swap Shadow Technique placement with Premeditation, Shadow Techniques is a core sub passive, similar to venomous wounds for Assassination (that also got moved to first 8). Also good to allow us to skip Premeditation if we want
  • Increase the Finality buff duration to 30 sec like it is on live, I don’t understand why the duration was nerfed in the first place

I think thats it for now, I might add things if i come up with more stuff.

13 Likes

I agree! I’m not a long-time player, but it feels like a lot of the trees have fun flavoursome stuff that builds upon their story. Rogue seems to be a lot of plain numbers stuff, even from my brief look into past abilities and powers

In fairness - I don’t envy them having to come up with something just from the word “subtlety” : P It seems like Rogue is a difficult fantasy to work with. But this does seem like the time for strengthening spec identity, so I’d love to see some fun new things. I think I mentioned this up thread - Subtlety sprint lets you run over water. I don’t really know the original reason for it, but it’s fun and unique to them. I like that kind of stuff

1 Like

I understand the changes y’all made and overall I do think this is MUCH better than it was but if I may offer one point of criticism I don’t like that improved ambush has been moved to the exclusivity sub side of the tree I understand it but with outlaws seeming focus on ambush in single target maybe switch it with tight spender? Otherwise I LOVE the way the tree looks that’s just one small gripe I have with it.

1 Like

Assassination feels likes a weaker version of what we currently have on live. Demon Hunters are doing 100k Hunt crits on players compared to the 36k envenoms with lvl 70 template on a pvp training dummy. Deathmark feels very underwhelming and doesn’t appear to be working?

2 Likes

Just wanted to provide some feedback on the specs I’ve been playing, recent rogue player.

Assassination

Single target feels pretty good, numbers are a bit wonky but seem good. A few talents are over/undertuned, but I’m looking forward to seeing tuning going forward. The spec seems good in single target. Indiscriminate carnage is a really solid change, but I think it won’t be enough to really help our image in M+. It’s not very good in pugs, it seems ok when you pull around it, but honestly its not strong enough to pull around, and 8 targets is kind of a weird target for pulling. I think that will be ok in most groups, but even in the best case we aren’t doing windwalker damage during those packs, and our aoe damage is still pretty bad in between 1.5m windows.

Outlaw

I’ve tried a lot of builds and I just can’t quite find one that works well. I think the spec is a bit too complex, and undertuned right now. My worry I’m not playing it very well in shadow dance windows and such, and the spec might be too reliant on shadowdance/ambush/dice to do any sort of damage. I worry if the spec is super tuned around shadowdance/ambush burst windows then its going to feel bad the rest of the time like it does now with less dice than intended from shadowdance. That also will play really poorly since count the odds to add a few extra dice on pull most of the time is really nice to smooth out your opener and get the spec flowing, but you don’t rely on it for damage. In most raid fights with AoE you are going to either have dice or AoE and both are not going line up very well, and unless we are way overtuned in M+ we are likely to underperform in raid encounters. I really like blunderbuss, and greenskins/fan the hammer just feel bad to me. I like when sinister strike feels impactful and is causing a lot of your rotation stuff to happen. With fan the hammer you don’t ss much, and you don’t feel like you are getting powerful procs often. Your pistol shots hit like a wet noodle outside greenskin procs, maybe you are suppose to SS anyway, but it feels bad. at least with SS you feel like you get stuff out of procs, with a zillion pistol shots you just feel like you are firing blanks. Between the eyes is also a little awkward at times, where blunderbuss just always felt good when it procced.

1 Like
  1. I am posting this for a friend who mains rogue but doesn’t have Beta. Its nice to finally get an update from Blizz. The Danse Macabre capstone is a great idea. It just needs a bit of exponential scaling, as was previously said so you don’t feel bad using weaker abilities earlier in the chain. Coming Class Tree Changes - Blackjack was a great change but is still useless for PvE. Just swap it with Prey. 10% damage on stuns has always been a nice rogue niche in both PvE and PvP. - Elusiveness needs to be buffed if it’s to compete with Cheat Death. I can understand why Feint DR was reduced to 20% but Evasion should reduce damage by the same amount if not more. - Deadened Nerves is a very weak talent. Physical damage is rarely taken. Feint and Evasion take care of the majority of situations where it is. Maybe have it reduce damage from DOTs by 3% instead? - Connections from Virulent Poisons and Tight Spender down to the next row would make the tree more fluid. - Connections leading from Cold Blood and MfD/Deeper to the previous row would also make the tree more fluid. - Cold Blood is wack in a world where rogues have had access to stuff like Master Assassin legendary in the past. Could it maybe do something like cut the GCD in half for the next few abilities as well? - The tree is a good opportunity to bring back Anticipation. Have it be a choice node alongside Cold Blood. I can see use cases with Echoing Reprimand, but if nothing else, it’s still cool to have. - Remove Thistle Tea. Put a reworked version of Blood of the Enemy in its place. No on use damage, just have it increase your crit chance and crit damage by 20% on a 2 min CD. A great ability used by all the rogue specs and the name is already fitting for the class. Have a little Blood pool for its animation and we finally have a capstone row that is at the very least competitive.

    • I’d still like an Slice and Dice rework. It should be passive, a second for every CP spent with a max duration of 10. It can have an active component where the button becomes usable after 60 seconds of uptime to double its benefit for 5 seconds. Doesnt have to be big. Just needs to feel better than it currently does. Subtlety Tree Changes - Secret Technique should be swapped with Silent Storm. It should be shadow damage in its entirety. It should also benefit from Shadowed Finishers and Finality. - Shrouded in Darkness needs to be deleted. Perforated Veins should be put in its place. - Put a reworked Goremaws in place of PV. Make it a cleave generator that’s hard capped at 5 targets on a 30 sec cd. Sub deserves some cleave and having that alongside a functional Secret Technique means it won’t feel useless during 2-5 targets. It’s also an additional ability to be used during Danse.
  • I’m in favor of completely removing The Rotten as a capstone. Sub rogue already has every part of this ability somewhere in the tree (First Dance, Cold Blood, PV). In its place I’d like to see the Edge of Night execute. While it doesn’t necessarily fit the builder theme of the left side of the tree, an execute is pretty close and that is a well designed one. - I agree that Lingering Shadow and Invigorating Shadowdust should be switched. However I also think connections should be added between Without a Trace and (currently) PV alongside Cloaked in Shadows and Deeper Strat. Should both these things happen I think WaT should be swapped with Fade to Nothing as well to keep WaT in the middle. FtN and CiS are more defensive talents and don’t provide Dps throughput so they should be accessible from all the paths. In Response to Pushnoir - Shadow Dance is already as close to front and center as it can get. It’s behind the 8 point gate (and the strongest option behind the gate). In its current position it gives access to all 3 branches. It’s in a good spot no matter your preferred build.

NEW

    • Shadow Techniques is in a good spot as well. Right after SD. It allows premed to be skipped and that would not happen were it swapped with premed.

However I also think connections should be added between Without a Trace and (currently) PV alongside Cloaked in Shadows and Deeper Strat.

Problem with this is you just go down the middle and grab all 3 capstones for “free”.

Shadow Techniques is in a good spot as well. Right after SD. It allows premed to be skipped and that would not happen were it swapped with premed.

The only time you can avoid taking premed is if ur making an aoe build and ironically, premed has typically been a strong contender for m+ builds this expansion. But yea premed should probably be sent to a leaf node, maybe where “Shot in the Dark” is now.

In Response to Pushnoir - Shadow Dance is already as close to front and center as it can get.

It’s not, you can make a build that never takes Shadow Dance, this shouldnt be a thing.

I’d still like an Slice and Dice rework. It should be passive, a second for every CP spent with a max duration of 10.

There’s nothing wrong with SND for sub imo. It’s not pressed a lot and I think the spec needs some variation in it’s rotation and buff tracking. If anything it further pushes the planning gameplay of sub.

2 Likes

The change for Outlaw that I would most like to see is to change Count the Odds to a 10/20% chance for 5/10 seconds and completely remove the added stealth bonus. This would give Audacity a good footing outside of Shadow Dance windows (or without taking Shadow Dance at all), and it would go a long ways towards not having Shadow Dance be too powerful (but still good!) and balancing the entire spec around one talent.