Feedback: Rogues

Hello Zlaer,

The Rogue Community is glad to hear from you all and are excited for what is to come. Thank you for taking our feedback into consideration and hopefully the correspondence continues and makes for a banger Dragonflight for Rogues :smiley:

I wanted to take a moment to give my reaction, feedback, and potential iteration, for the replacement of Shadow Mist, Danse Macabre. First off I think this talent is a creative addition, it is definitely not boring on the surface. I really like the concept of encouraging the usage of generators you may not have previously utilized in Shadow Dance to build up to a large one global burst spender. This sort of gameplay is something that Subtlety enjoyers loved during Legion in Death from Above, this sort of singular global mega burst. I believe that this talent is aiming to achieve a similar type of gameplay through a different avenue that does not involve animation locking you and killing you sometimes.

The issue with this version of the talent though is that it is very unlikely that a payoff of an 80% or 90% amplified Eviscerate will offset the cost that you have to put in to attain this amplifier. Using abilities such as Shiv, Shuriken Toss, Shuriken Storm, refreshing Slice and Dice/Rupture, or using Black Powder, will all be substantial damage losses that this final payoff needs to compensate by either being damage neutral or hopefully a gain. Currently we believe that at a rate of 10% damage to generators/finishers (not other things like melee/poisons/etc) per stack, this talent will likely not have any rotational/gameplay impact and it will likely just be treated as a 20/30% damage amplifier to your regular rotation while in Shadow Dance. While this is acceptable because I am a DPS player and damage = fun, I do not want this. This talent I think has great potential to alter the gameplay of my favorite spec in a fun way and provide for the extreme burst moments that I want in this spec.

I want to provide some possible adjustments that Subtlety Rogue enjoyers have theorized to better achieve the goal this talent tries to achieve.

  1. Exponential Growth of the Amplifier. Instead of linearly increasing 10% per stack, the amplifier would go, for example (random numbers, subject to tuning obviously), 5%->10%->20%->40%->80%->160%-320%. This solution is a bit brute force because it really discourages you doing the monotonous rotation that is Shadowstrike x2 → Eviscerate. It very strongly leans into the usage of sub-optimal generators/finishers in the Shadow Dance window all in favor of getting those 1-3 very powerful globals at the end.

  2. Removal of the Reset. This sort of changes the idea of the talent a bit. Instead of using all unique buttons within Shadow Dance, you use a few unique buttons for the first however many globals the player decides is sufficient, and then spend the rest of the Shadow Dance reaping the rewards of the amplifier you built.

  3. Capping Stacks, Reward at Stack Cap. This is a modification to the 2nd alternative but I think this alternative leaves more room for creativity and less boring payoff. Instead of providing a % damage amplifier for every unique button press, the player gains a stack of a buff that has some dance/music themed name. You would probably cap this buff at either 4/5 stacks. Once the cap is reached some very powerful effect happens. This effect leaves a ton of room for creativity for you, the developers. Preferably an effect that makes the last 4/5 seconds of Shadow Dance feel really really impactful.

I think in general the goal of this talent is to create a ramping period within your Shadow Dance that leads into a few massive hits, I love the idea and I want it to be actually achieved. I’d hate for this talent to just be a passive increase you don’t care about. Without iteration though that is likely the fate of the current Danse Macabre. I appreciate the time you have spent reading my feedback, and hope to hear from you soon.

3 Likes

No, its a very underwhelming talent as a capstone. Just imagine giving thistle tea to warriors to grant them 100 rage on use instead of Avatar or Spear of Bastion…

Thistle tea has just no place in modern wow, or atleast not as a capstone talent for sure.

As optional utility maybe…

5 Likes

In my experience, it’s most “rogue” things don’t work on beta.

2 Likes

Pretty much! There hasn’t been any accurate testing of the class yet and this expansion is allegedly supposed to be out late November :joy:

2 Likes

Make cheat death baseline. Solves the pathing issue in the talent tree directly.

2 Likes

Hello Rogues,

Let’s talk talents, specifically the class tree:

There are a few notable changes here, with talent position changes being more clear, and some less clear from the picture alone, which we’ll point out.

We’ve heard significant discussion around this talent, the degree to which it isn’t very compelling (even situationally), and the ways in which it clashes with other talent on the class tree and spec trees. As a result, it’s been redesigned:

image

Cheat Death is certainly compelling, and players have pointed out how it puts undue emphasis on the Subtlety-themed side of the tree. The solution we’ve decided on is to move it up the tree to a more accessible spot (previously occupied by Recuperator), but now as a choice against the similarly-powerful Elusiveness. Recuperator has moved to the previous position of Elusiveness, and a reworked version of Soothing Darkness is taking the previous position Cheat Death.

image image

There are few more positional changes.

As it turns out, neither talent is well-suited to being positioned on a main highway. Deeper Stratagem is joining Marked for Death, as a choice node:

image

Improved Ambush is taking the position Deeper Stratagem was in. Nightstalker and Tight Spender are swapping positions and point costs as a result, with slightly adjusted values to accommodate.

Beyond positional changes, a few talents have had costs changed.

Lethality and Alacrity have become 2-point talents. Lethality remains the same per-point value, and Alacrity has had numbers slightly adjusted to accommodate the change (most notably, granting up to 8% Haste at max stacks).

Sold. Resounding Clarity is now a 1-point talent, and causes Echoing Reprimand to Animacharge 3 additional combo points.

Something that we’re aware of as a potential knock-on effect of this and the other above changes, is Echoing Reprimand becoming more appealing to take in some builds than it was before. For those who don’t mind the one-Animacharge minigame of Echoing Reprimand but don’t want to feel forced into the full four-Animacharge version, we’re considering adding Reverberation (formerly a Conduit) with an appropriate value to go up against Resounding Clarity as a choice node.

Thank you for your feedback so far, and we welcome any continued discussion. Cheers.

21 Likes

All of these changes are fantastic, there are still a few nagging issue with this tree that hopefully can be addressed in the next few passes of the tree, but as more time passes I’m sadly getting less and less optimistic as this seems to be a running theme with rogue every expansion.

Firstly the tree is still incredibly stiff for a tree that is very focused on damage. Every single point matters a lot as it’s the difference maker on doing the most damage possible. Talent’s in rows that compete with DPS talents are an issue. The specific 2 that I see as being almost never picks are Acrobatic strikes, which on the tree competes with Vigor and Improved Ambush, and then Long Arm of the Law for Outlaw which on the opposite side of the tree has 2 damage talents in that section of the tree. Maybe with the changes to ER and RC will make that line more appealing, but the end of the day, this tree is more of a talent line, than a talent tree.

Secondly is overall power level of talents. While sims are not done yet it’s super easy to tell from somebody who has done a lot of work into optimizing the spec that things like Cold Blood and Thistle Tea are still incredibly terrible. Neither are interesting, or powerful which leaves them as giant “why bother” talents especially when Dance, and now ER are much more appealing.

Lastly to leave on a more positive note overall, I think the changes to RC is great, I think to overall make that line much more compelling ER should just be ER + RC and give all the combo points, and then maybe the last talent is one of the following effects. Whether it be the old soulbind talent, Effusive Anima Accelerator giving ER an “explosion” that gives CDR, just the conduit Reverberation giving it increased damage, or maybe “your finishers deal damage as if they were +1 cp more” (so maybe 8 or 9 in total) to make landing on the points have an even larger payoff.

Overall idk, I think this tree overall is “pretty decent” but I have a feeling that the fact that this tree is more of a line than a web is just going to be how we are stuck with it, this late into development anyway.

5 Likes

The new Blackjack + Soothing Darkness talents do literally nothing to fix what people were talking about when referring to the previous talents that were in these spots

6 Likes

There is still problem, that both talents are locked behind alacrity/lethality. Can’t we get more connections in the tree to actually have more choices?

https://imgur.com/S5OijrQ

15 Likes

Dispatcher - doesn’t feel great in the sense it’s based on the duration of the first stack and feels pretty impossible to get the max stack range. So if you mess up and start using dispatches when you had a timer with less than 3-4 seconds, you lose it early.

Leeching poison - this doesn’t even feel like it belongs anywhere near the bottom of the talent tree.

My mobility as an outlaw rogue is going to be stupidly broken. I can take blade rush, shadow step, grapple hook, sprint (with imp sprint snare removal/freedom) and vanish. Something has gotta give here.

2 Likes

Is there any chance we could see a returning of echoing blades for Assassination? Maybe a choice node between echoing blades and crimson tempest?

Virulent Poisons / Tight Spender being dead ends still looks a bit weird compared to other trees. Is it a point / build potency issue to have those connect in a cross to the talents below so you could, theoretically, kinda just branch out after the Elusiveness/Cheat Death node to have a bit more options to reach the bottom of the tree? There’s still good nodes on the side

2 Likes

Dispatcher is fine it’s just that it’s bugged currently. The second point is supposed to increase the duration to 20s but as of right now it does nothing.

Excited to maybe have multiple builds now between Cold Blood / Kyrian middle side of Sub spec tree as opposed to just Cold Blood + Right side of Sub rogue spec tree.

Still would like to see relentless strikes swapped with nightstalker in terms of relentless strikes being class wide since vanilla and nightstalker only really making sense for sub rogue not a class tree.

Also hopefully we get working 2 dance charges again soon to test things better and other bug fixes like implementing shadowed finishers and making Shadowdust CDR properly lowering cold blood.

6 Likes

I had to doubletake because I thought the tree being shown was the one we currently have, only to read further and realize that’s a new version of the tree. It still looks very much the same, with rigid pathing and little opportunity for cross over. I don’t see much deviation from the parallel lines on either side that Whispyr and nearly all other rogues have criticized…except in this build Thistle Tea is chosen, which is not going to happen.

I appreciate that Cheat Death has been moved, but its placement as a choice node with Elusiveness creates the same issue we currently have with Row 4 in live: Cheat Death is the stronger, default choice in almost every scenario, which is why it is unanimously chosen by rogues over Elusiveness. If you want to delete Elusiveness from the talent tree, just do so, because putting it in competition with Cheat Death is essentially the same thing.

Blackjack is a nice change from Improved Sap…my issue remains that it is a mandatory, unskippable node on the path down to some pretty powerful (and default) choices on this tree. My main squeeze is raid and keys–this will see no use in a raid setting and is likely to make very little impact on the m+ scene. This is a pvp talent that should be an offshoot along the side (similar to Wound Poison). Or, we should have a pathing option around it similar to being able to path around Tricks just above it.

I’m happy with the change for MFD/DS. Sin rogues with DS are not happy sin rogues, and MFD sees much more play.

I’m hoping for more significant changes to the core tree, especially with regard to the rigid pathing and disappointing capstones. If Shadow Dance remains the most powerful node among the three, it will remain the default choice at the end of this tree–to the distress of many rogues who do not want this. Thistle Tea is like getting socks for Christmas as a child, and since that’s clearly the Sin rogue side of the tree, I must beg for something more exciting for our capstone that–if Shadow Dance is here to stay–is competitive enough that you are not pigeonholed into Shadow Dance each and every time.

10 Likes

General Tree:

Improved sap being reworked into blackjack is … better but its still a mediocre node and only has niche value in PvP, and it doesn’t solve the main issue people had with the node, that being you’re still forced to take a node that has 0 value(in pve at least) to path down the right side. Seems much better as a pvp talent option rather than a forced node on the tree. In my opinion i would rework it again/remove it. Another solution is to just swap blackjacks spot on the tree with prey on the weak. That way we can actually path down the right side without being forced to take this very niche node.

Acrobatic Strikes is a great quality of life node but it isn’t a power node, yet its on the same line as two power nodes, vigor and improved ambush. I think it should be pushed up closer to the top of the tree.

Cold Blood is outdated and terrible, i dont see any of the 3 specs taking this node ever.
Thistle Tea is strong on assassination and great to have during shiv windows, but when compared to other capstones among other classes and our own, the power just doesn’t compare. My suggestion would be to remove cold blood, move Thistle Tea to where Cold Blood currently is, and come up with a new capstone for Thistle Tea’s current spot.

Why is leeching poison where it is on the tree? Doesn’t it make more sense for Leeching Poison to branch off of Master Poisoner or Virulent Poisons? I dont think its powerful enough to be where its at under the 20 point line, as a forced node down the left side of the tree.

That being said the tree still has very narrow pathing and little opportunity for cross over like a lot of other specs have. I dont see why we cant have more interconnecting lines to other nodes that allow for more choice.

Assassination Tree:
Consider adding in Echoing Blades (azerite trait from BFA) in place of Flying Daggers. Poisoned Katar and Flying Daggers are basically the same node and it feels really bland taking these two. I think Echoing Blades would be a better fit in place of Flying Daggers, it wouldn’t feel like you’re taking the same node twice and has nice synergy with Poison Katar if you decided to go that route.

Tiny Toxic Blade is a pretty terrible node under the 20 point line that is competing with much more powerful options like Blindside, Poison Bomb, Shrouded Suffocation, Sepsis, and Serrated Bone Spike. Shiv does not have a lot of flat damage to begin with so the 300% increased damage is pretty minuscule. Im not sure why a very underwhelming legendary power from shadowlands that never saw any use made its way into the tree (especially for where its at and what its competing with). If it HAD to be in there it makes more sense to be near the 8 point line pathing out of shiv, but its not powerful enough to be where its at right now.

Outlaw Tree:
Why is Long Arm of the Outlaw locked behind a power node and then Dancing Steel locked behind Long Arm of the Outlaw? Its more of a QoL node that isnt really necessary, we already have acrobatic strikes on the general tree and locking Dancing Steel behind it feels terrible. My suggestion would be to just add a line connecting Quick Draw to Dancing Steel but then no one would ever take Long Arm of the Outlaw, since we already have Acrobatic Strikes on the general tree. In that case maybe just rework or remove that node from outlaw and replace it. Im sure someone smarter than me could take a look at that and figure out a better solution.

With that being said, these are fantastic changes so far and hope to see more positive changes over the next few iterations of the tree.

4 Likes
  1. Leeching Poison >>Atrophic poison and Mind numbing

Both of these talents are useless, replace leeching poison with atrophic poison. And we can also replace numbing poison with improved wound poison, which is the best thing.

  1. Shadow Reflection >>Thistle tea

You have completely forgotten the old and widely used talents of rogue, burst of speed, combat readiness, nerve strikes, shadow reflection, these talents are among the best, but no one remembers them.
thistle tea This talent is completely useless for the two spec subtlety and outlaw because they don’t need much energy, we can replace this talent with shadowy reflection, this way we have a lot of options to choose the last row of our talent.

3.Combat Readiness>>Blackjack or Leeching poison

We can replace the old talent Combat readiness with leeching poison.

  1. Black Jack>>Nerve strike

The new black jack talent that we had in the cataclysm patch is not very useful. Replace it with the nerve strike talent that we had in the Pandaria patch.

  1. Alcarity>>MFD and DS

Alacrity talent doesn’t have much use for subtlety talent and it’s not a good place and you just need to move it with the mfd and ds row, many people are not satisfied with the place of these two talents.

6.Burst of Speed>>1Charge Shadowstep or As a pvp talent

This is just a suggestion to replace the old mop talent burst of speed with 1 charge of shadow step or add it to the talent as a pvp talent.

  1. Subtlety PvP Talents

PVP talents of outlaw assassination are not a problem, but the subtlety of these two PVP talents are very useless (Distracting margin and thief bargain)
We need the Phantom assassin talent back that we had in Legion and replace Distracting margin
Thief bargain talent, which has become even more useless since elusiveness was nerfed, please return the old thief bargain to us.

Picture of talents.
imgur com/a/x1ASTzi >>couldnt link here so put . before com

Thank you :wink:

2 Likes

I like every change in this recent post. Thank you.

My biggest concern at this point is the low interconnectivity between the three main lanes. The three lanes I’m referring to are Fleet Footed → Thistle Tea, Improved Sprint → Resounding Clarity, and Shadowstep → Shadow Dance. I assume this is already on yall’s radar but I’ll go into detail.

If I want Shadow Dance, there are 6 nodes above that I must take, i.e. no branch nodes. Every other class tree has a branch node 1-3 rows above their capstones, but for Rogue you have to go 6 rows up.

Another way to look at it: most classes (8/13) can start at the top-left and end up at the bottom-right. The classes who can’t are Druid and Shaman (which have 4 starting nodes, so they are wider) and DH and Evoker (which have convenient mid-tier nodes that can always be selected)… and then Rogue.

I feel this severely limits build freedom/creativity and I would be sad to see a talent tree hit launch like this. I know that adding more interconnections will complicate things and undo some of the work that has already gone in. But I really do think the current tree needs it.

8 Likes

Logged on beta to put all the points in considering these changes… I like it

Mid/Left builds can have Thistle Tea, Cold Blood, Marked for Death / Deeper Stratagem and still have 1 point to spare.

I think we’re getting close to a final form here, well done.

The recuprator talent, which is considered to be one of the last talents, should have more impact. 1% every two seconds is not interesting at all, it should be more effective, something like 4% every two seconds, and the cold blood talent is too old in my opinion. The next two finishers should be crit, much more interesting also You did the best thing by changing lethality to 2 points. If alacrity is replaced with mfd and ds, many people’s problems will be solved.