Feedback: Rogues

ALSO it’s time for my weekly “please acknowledge that you can see our feedback and care” post:


I feel like this is even more relevant now that another build went out and there’s still nothing. They fixed all of WW SL legos not working meanwhile Greenskins is still not even working and Heavy Hitter and Precise Cuts are still NYI. :dracthyr_cry_animated:

It’s two months from launch and I can’t even give relevant feedback because crucial things simply still do not function.


I mean its not like they are planning to go to prepatch or anything like that.

Makes me remmeber that rogue covenant abilities were the last ones implemented in shadowlands and we went live with that pathetic flagellation, nerfed to hell bone spike and overtuned echoing reprimand


To address a lot of the talent problems people have brought up with class tree/sub spec tree in regards to 5 energy talents being redudant/overlapping with each other and lack of flexability after changes I’d really like to see something similar to the following:

  • Marked for Death and Deeper Stratagem switch places so not forced into double stratagem.
  • Tight spenders removed and replaced with Relentless strikes for all 3 specs on the class tree.
  • Improved Sap moved off the mandatory PvE path and put where imp ambush/nightsalker was.
  • Nightstalker tier moved to where relentless strike used to be on the spec tree. Since it’s not really relevant to the other specs anyway to warrant being on class tree.

This exactly, relentless strikes was always a must have mandatory talent in previous xpacs for energy regen and without it, you feel just energy starving, especially on assa.


Hello, Rogues.

Your feedback, here and elsewhere, has not fallen on deaf ears. In hindsight, stopping by the forums sooner to say as much would probably have helped, and I hope you are willing to accept a peace offering (in the form of a previewed upcoming change to the talent that was previously Shadow Mist):


Iteration and implementation for Rogue talents continues in earnest. A handful of iterative changes and significantly more functional talents will be hitting the PTR and Beta across the next couple builds, many of which are related to topics previously discussed here, and we will be back tomorrow to chat with you about more of what’s coming.



Please keep us posted when there is news and not wait a long while. I know you guys are trying the best as you can but the player base right now is so low on trust right now. And some believe that you guys are intentionally ignoring feedback and I really hope that you guys can prove them wrong by posting updates when there is news or new iteration.

Keep up doing the good work.


Enough! Your gyrations sicken me.

In all seriousness, thank you for letting us know we weren’t just screaming into the void. I’m looking forward to seeing what updates are in store :slight_smile:


“Hello Rogues”

We aren’t all sub. How about some love for the spec that hasn’t gotten any love all of SL? Sin is an absolute joke and nothing looks different so far. I’m glad we finally get a reply here, but this is kinda sad and discouraging.


Any chance of Zoldyck Recipe, Dashing Scoundrel, or Scent of Blood being lowered to two points? Most general and spec trees have a maximum of four points in a row below the 20-point line at this point. As it currently stands, you can’t take Dragon-Tempered Blades and either of the other capstones since Dragon-Tempered Blades has five points between itself and the 20-point line.

If the concern is that Dragon-Tempered Blades and Kingsbane together would be too strong, change Kingsbane to scale with only Deadly Poison instead of all Lethal Poisons.

Thanks for the update! Keep up the good work Blizz!


I have no idea how you can say this while looking at the sin tree honestly.


Hopefully this update will include a lot of work on the class tree. All the other trees have been modernized with update after update while the rogue one is still a first pass talent tree, with loads if incredibly undertuned and underwhelming talents. Things like Cold Blood, Alacrity, Thistle Tea, Improved Sap, even ER should not be as expensive as it is point wise and for a worse effect than what we currently play with on live.


Thank you.


Agree with everything here except thistle tea, i dont think its extremely undertuned at all. 100 energy on demand with 3 charges is extremely strong on assassination during shiv windows, its just a really, really mediocre option for sub and outlaw.


I hope some of these changes include the general rogue talent tree. Some of it really doesn’t make sense.

-Why is marked for death locked behind alacrity? the pathing is fine for outlaw and sin but terrible for sub to have to take 3 alacrity nodes to get it.

-Why is cheat death locked behind deeper stratagem, and shadow dance locked behind both? The pathing is fine for outlaw and sub but to play shadow dance or even just cheat death on assassination you need to take deeper stratagem which feels terrible. Cheat death feels completely out of place being locked behind deeper strat.

I think marked for death and deeper stratagem need to swap their spots on the talent tree(still bad because it locks deeper strat behind alacrity) or change the current deeper stratagem node into a split option between marked for death and deeper stratagem (better but still forces you into one of these to play cheat death).

Keep cheat death where it is, and swap elusiveness and deeper strat spots on the tree That allows you to get deeper strat without forcing you into echoing reprimand and it allows you to get cheat death/shadowdance without forcing you into deeper strat. It makes a lot more sense for elusiveness to path into cheat death then having it path into echoing reprimand. You could even make cheat death/elusiveness a split node.

Its better pathing for all specs and doesn’t make you feel like you have to path into something that feels terrible for your respective spec to get something thats good for it. However that would still leave marked for death locked behind alacrity. Im not 100% what the correct approach for it is but having marked for death locked behind alacrity and deeper strat mandatory to play shadow dance/cheat death feels awful. Elusiveness pathing into reprimand just feels weird.

-Why is improved sap even a node on the tree?

We already have rushed setup on the general tree and outlaw already has it on their tree with dirty tricks. It feels like such a worthless node and your forced to take it to go down the right side of the tree. Please consider removing it completely, it has no value.


Hi Zlaer, cool name by the way.

I love the idea of what the talent is meant to do, which is break up the simple/basic sub gameplay of only pressing strike and eviscerate within dance. It’s very creative and with some iteration can be an absolute banger that will basically shape the way sub is played this expansion. Don’t want to use too big words, but you get my point.

BUT, it does have issues. Currently the 10% amp per ability seems way too weak to consider ever just not doing strike into evis anyway for a constant flow of 20%/30% more damage to those finishers. Which is fine by itself by the way, but I suspect that wasnt the intention of the talent. In order to make it worthwhile to use stuff like Shuriken Toss, Secret Technique, ER, Sepsis, Rupture etc within dance, the number probably has to be a lot higher PER builder/finisher or something else.

I have 3 ideas of how to do this:

Option 1
Make it so that each builder/finisher gives way more damage amp, but cap it at a max % dmg level. It resets anyway when you use it at a high damage amp, so i don’t think it would be too problematic. Say 25% per builder/finisher, capped at 100%, You’d only get the full value of this once per dance, which might be fine? Not sure.

Option 2
Remove the stacks dropping part completely. Now this might sound weird, but I think you will still retain the “use different stuff in dance”-goal of the talent but without feeling like you’re better off just striking into evis.

So how this would play out is that you’d send a bunch of weird builders/finishers early in your dance and then have the benefit for the rest of dance. You’d still end up striking into eviscerate at the later half of dance, but i don’t think you’ll ever fix this without numbers tuning in other places.

Option 3
Buff our filler spells. If you want us to make use of filler stuff like shiv, secret technique, backstab, shuriken toss, then find ways to make these not turbo bad compared to strike/eviscerate numbers. Lingering Shadows working in dance would be 1 thing to solve backstab. Buffing secret technique a lot AND changing it’s place in the tree would mean we have another finisher to spend that isnt a complete waste compared to eviscerate. Giving us something like Sharpened Blades for Shuriken Toss means we can stack up the damage of it and send a big one within dance, which means it might also not feel terrible or make the 10% amp actually worth getting. Rupture could snapshot the damage of what stack you used it on, so say you had 6-7 stacks, that rupture now simply does 60-70% more damage for its duration, regardless of in dance or not.

Those are my problems and solutions with it. But as i said early on, love the idea, changing how we play shadow dance in both ST and AoE with 1 talent is impressive, hats off.


So hit combo during our shadowdance windows… Really hope my shadow strike doesn’t randomly generate 3 and hold me at 3 cps until I get a random shadow tech proc. This also lacks synergy with flagellation which is also on the sub tree.

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It’s not like hit combo, read the tooltip again.

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So what, say I press 3 buttons. Shadowstrike > evis > Shadowstrike, my final shadowstrike will reset stacks? In that case it sounds pretty annoying to use.

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Yes it will. You’re not allowed to repeat any ability if you want to increase the stacks.

At worst (with current design), you are getting a 20% damage amp to strike and 30% to eviscerate, if you just spam those 2 buttons.

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