Please use this thread to post feedback on the Rogue class, once you’ve tested it in the Dragonflight Alpha.
Please use this thread to post feedback on the Rogue class, once you’ve tested it in the Dragonflight Alpha.
I may be in the minority here, but I absolutely hate shadowdance being in the general rogue tree. It feels like an absolutely mandatory talent for outlaw (and obviously sub) simply due to the ridiculous synergy between count the odds, ambush talents, and restless blades making it have almost no cooldown whatsoever. There is currently no build that wouldn’t spec into it and that really feels bad.
Please reconsider Marked for Death being required for Find Weakness / Second charge of Shadow Dance. I’ve managed to avoid that button for all of Shadowlands, and I don’t want to be made to use it now.
Also, I believe you have reasons for removing it, but I do want to say I liked Soothing Darkness and will miss it.
I’ve had a chance to take a look at all three rogue specs. I have reviewed in detail every talent in the base rogue talent tree. Please see comments below are only for base rogue talent tree (I have also provided in-game feedback on these as well):
Garrote: (Row 1): Why is this really a base rogue talent. All 3 specs will have to take this ability just to get evasion (and even mind-numbing poison). Why as outlaw/sub would I ever want to use Garrote? Garrote should still be a base Assassin ability, OR put this talent in the assassination talent tree.
Leeching Poison: (Row 8) This base rogue talent doesn’t put a leech on Instant Poison (like for Sub & Outlaw Rogues). Sub and Outlaw don’t use Deadly Poison, and don’t typically use Wound Poison in PVE situations. The Leeching affect also doesn’t apply if you have Amplification Poison selected and on your weapon as your lethal poison as Assassination. I mean this talent should say “Add a Leeching Poison effect to your LETHAL poison granting you 12% Leech” to be fair? Seems like a penalty if you take this talent and aren’t running Assassin/ Deadly Poison specifically. You must go through this talent if you want the Thistle Tea talent base. (note: Thistle Tea bugged as it’s only providing 1 charge currently). Or, move this talent to be one of the ‘off-shoots’ of the tree, like Subterfuge or Improved Wound Poison.
Lethality: (Row 8) Lethality talent doesn’t provide the critical strike increase of 3% (at least in the character screen it doesn’t affect crit). Critical strike from the character screen says, “Chance for extra effectiveness on attacks and heals” …the talent says “Critical strike change increased by 3%”. Unless I’m reading into this talent the wrong way, I would expect to see my critical strike percentage go up by 3%, no? On test, base was 18%, after selecting the talent 3/3 I was still 18% crit. Where does the 3% go?
Subterfuge: (Row 4) This talent doesn’t appear to work correct with Shadowstrike. I would expect for 3 sec after breaking stealth I could cast Shadowstrike, to include the teleport effect of the spell on a different target. The spell will still strike with damage, but the teleport portion of the spell doesn’t work (yes I know on live the teleport portion doesn’t work also). For this reason, wasn’t this why current live version of the talent has the extra benefit of extending shadow dance for 1 sec? Dragonflight version this like won’t be worth it for Subtlety (or maybe even Outlaw) at all (unless ambush numbers turn out higher than expected).
Alacrity: (Row 8) This is currently only providing up to 10% haste for 5 stacks of this buff. It will stack up to 5 times but doesn’t give the 20% haste as the tooltip shows. Tooltip error?
Thistle Tea: (Row 10) This only appears to provide 1 charge of thistle tea, although on the actions bars it looks like there are 3 charges, and the talent says “Max 3 Charges”. Once you use it, it goes on a 1-minute cooldown and no further charges available. Not sure if this intended or not, or if I’m missing something on how to get 3 charges.
Tight Spender: (Row 6) This is INCREASING the energy cost for finishing moves instead of reducing. 0/2 Tight Spender Evis costs 35 energy; 1/2 Tight Spender, Evis costs 38 Energy; 2/2 Tight Spender, Evis costs 40 energy. We’re going the wrong way lol! (Unless this is a tooltip error).
Shadow Dance: (Row 10) If you select this talent in both the rogue talent tree and the Sublety talent tree, it’s only giving 1 charge of Shadow Dance. I would expect if you go Sub you should be able to get 2 charges of shadow dance like you currently can on live.
As a general comment, overall seems rogue damage output is pretty low for all 3 specs (currently I’m lvl 68 on test). I was having to put a CC on a mob when there were 3-5 mobs and virtually use everthing I had to stay alive on these types of pulls. No way to AOE them down effectively and would almost die most pulls if 3+ mobs. Part of the challenge was energy regeneration was so incredibly low, it was hard to get many abilities off and there’s a lot of time just energy pooling. (I’m comparing damage output to Evoker, which pretty much just melts mobs and the class has almost zero downtime while questing/leveling).
Assassination Talent Review:
Shadowstep: (Row 2) This talent isn’t giving a 2nd charge to Shadowstep when it’s taken also with the rogue base talent ‘Shadowstep’ (row 4). I would expect to see 2 charges of this ability, but currently only one charge is available. (Side note: this is potentially a very nice change in terms of quality of life for assassination if we truly will have 2 charges of Shadowstep).
Improved Garrote: (Row 4) Why is this talent even here if rogues have the option already with Subterfuge. I mean essentially both talents do the exact same thing…allow rogues to put Garrote on multiple targets. They don’t stack/interact in any way, so if you pick both as assassination it’s a completely waste. Yes you get the 50% damage increase, but why not have it better interact with Subterfuge? (on live they are currently combined, so you get 3 sec & 80% garrote increase damage). Also, why the reduction from 80% increase damage on live now to 50%? I didn’t really think Garrote was broken that bad on live.
Shiv: (Row4) Please, please separate the dispel enrage effect from the spell itself for assassination. The dispel enrage should not be baked into a core rotational ability for assassination (similar to Outlaw when the stun was also backed in to ‘between the eyes’). For Outlaw/Sub it doesn’t matter because Shiv isn’t part of the rotation. Maybe make a talent which empowers Envenom for 1 hit, which will increase “nature damage done against the target for 20% for 9 sec”. This spell is problematic for rogues who may want to run this spec in M+, but have to hold Shiv for those weeks in which an enrage is needed to be dispelled.
Master Assassin: (Row5) Why has this ability continually been watered down over the years? At first it was 100% crit for 5 sec, then down to 50% and now it’s 30% for 3 seconds. This makes this ability virtually worthless, but one we MUST spend talent points on to continue down this tree.
Flying Daggers: (Row 6) 15% increase damage only? No way I can see taking this talent, ever. AND the 15% is only if there are more than 5 targets. Should be a much higher % increase for this talent, somewhere like 40-50% increase to make it worthwhile.
Maim, Mange: (Row 7) Since Garrote is already a row 1 talent on rogue talents, why not incorporate something like this ability for Sub and Outlaw? Right now Garrote is basically worthless for Sub & Outlaw, BUT a talent like this on the Sub & Outlaw tree could make Garrote more worthwhile. Sub = increase damage of backstab; Outlaw = increase damage of sinister strike?
Amplifying Poison. (Row 7) This poison needs to interact with Leeching Poison. Assassination shouldn’t be punished for picked this talent if they also have Leeching Poison. Amplifying Poison currently doesn’t give the rogue 12% leech if they also have Leeching Poison as their lethal poison.
Deathmark: (Row6) So far this talent seems completely underwhelming. Unlike Vendetta, there is no energy regen component for this talent. Rogues are already starved for energy as it is. Hitting this button on a mob doesn’t seem to make much of a difference. I put Garrote, Rupture on a mob with Deadly Poison, then hit Deathmark. Garrote was ticking for ~1,500; Rupture for ~1,100, Deadly Poison for ~325 – for a total of 2,925 damage. I would expect Deathmark to tick for somewhere around that correct? However, Deathmark was ticking for 667 damage (that’s basically like 2 ticks of deadly poison). If I’m reading the tooltip correctly, I should expect Deathmark to tick for 2,925 correct? Or at least something close to that. 667 damage is kind of laughable for an ability that is replacing Vendetta. Hopefully this will be addressed.
At the time of testing, Dragon-Tempered Blades and Indiscriminate Carnage talents were not implemented yet for testing.
My feedback is based on assassinations talents. I’ve played assassination since cataclysm and one thing has always troubled the spec, spec identity that plays out in ability’s and rotation. The current meta is a prime example as a master of poisons relys on bleeds to do it’s damage.
It’s good to see a couple of new poisons come in but again we remain a miss mash of bleeds and poisons with the main standout talent being a bleed focused one, indiscriminate carnage. I do wonder if it will make it to live as this talent was proposed in another expansion but was removed due to balancing issues I believe.
The main poison talent allows a extra poison to be applied which may be great for damage but really boring for any rotation interaction with poisons, it’s mainly passive and RNG.
Amplifying poison is just another attempt at agonising poison but further limited to just envenom, frankly it’s just like having another points system on top of an ability that already uses points. Personally I can see it just being a select and forget talent as stacks won’t matter when it comes to ensuring up time on the envenom buff, shiv is always used in conjunction with several envenom dumps anyway so interaction with poisons remains stagnant again.
Could we not of seen more engagement with poison bomb? Currently it’s a horrible RMG AOE talent with no player engagement. PB could be a on use ability with charges and amplifying poison applications could act as a CDR to those charges. We would then have engagement with poisons and the ability to have control of PB instead of crossing fingers when a pack needs nuked down.
We could also see kings bane return to give us further interaction with poisons. Kings bane, control of poison bomb, shiv and massacre could have great synergy whilst increasing interactions with poisons so that we are a master of poisons. Exsanguinate is no different to kings bane and indiscriminate carnage is no different to a player controlled poison bomb.
You could even add two paths, one poison focused that utilises kings bane and poison bomb and the other bleed focused that utilises exsanguinate and indiscriminate carnage. Mastery already has both but could have percentages changed for either if needed.
Dashing scoundrel could be over the poison side to balance the possible energy difference from indiscriminate carnage, doom blade over with bleeds.
Personally I think we need clarity, we have always been masters of poisons. If we remain that then we need more direct involvement with poisons in the rotation. If we are no longer that then we need to be re written to something like a assassin who utilises poisons or bleeds to dispatch their targets.
Here’s my current thoughts on current state of rogue on alpha (some comments below I have already made on a previous post so apologies up front):
• Mandatory talent of Garrote for outlaw/sub feels bad, a random bleed for specs that don’t really use bleeds. (you HAVE to pick this to get Evasion and go down that side of the talent tree).
• Gouge for ALL rogue specs is a big win!
• Acrobatic Strikes (extra 3 yd melee range) is also a HUGE win for rogues.
• Shadow Dance for Outlaw & Assassin just seems weird to me. For Outlaw, I guess you spam Ambush while it’s active. Maybe for Assassin you can use it to apply an empowered garrote bleed or spam Ambush. (That is if Ambush is any good). I still need to test if Shadow Dance interacts properly with Improved Garrote for Assassin, and allows for the increased garrote damage.
• 2 of 3 specs have some form of raid/party utility with Sub being left out in the cold. Why not move a raid/group utility to row 10 of base rogue tree so ALL specs have some form of utility in raids & groups? My fear is Sub won’t see raid spots due to not having this utility.
• Hard to test damage output without a damage meter. Hopefully sometime in near future some addons will be enabled so we can compare output.
• I think Marked for Death should be ‘fill up’ your combo points and not just 5 combo points. Rogues can now have both MFD & Deeper Strategem, but MFD is only giving 5 combo points. I would suggest to have MFD give 6 combo points if Deeper Strategem is also talented by the rogue.
My opinion best to worst specs right now:
• 2 Charges of Shadowstep is a good thing. (Assuming it’s fixed – right now it’s only giving you 1 charge)
• This spec is severely energy starved at lower levels. Virtually impossible to keep Garrote, Rupture, Crimson Tempest, Slice and Dice all up at the same time, much less make max use of Shiv buff window. Even with ‘cut to the chase’ talent, it was hard to even get off an envenom to keep slice and dice going – just so energy starved. I found myself dropping Slice and dice and I would have to manually refresh versus building it back up with Cut to the Chase/Envenom.
• Vendetta replaced by Deathmark. New ability is currently feels bad. I press the cooldown and hard to tell a difference in my damage or anything. At least Vendetta regened energy when used. Deathmark is a hard 2-min CD without abilities to reduce that CD. On live, Vendetta’s CD can be reduced less than 2 mins due to legendries. This new ability just feels bad. Seems bugged as it seems to not properly ‘duplicating’ the rupture/garrote & lethal damage. The bleed it provides was doing ~800 damage per tick, not very noticeable.
• Baked-in execute. Assassination has Zoldyck’s, which increases bleed & poison damage by 30% to mobs below 30%. This is nice for both M+ and raid progression.
• Enrage dispel is still baked into Shiv. Shiv is a core rotational ability for Assassin, and I can’t understand why this enrage dispel is still part of the spell. Hope that you consider a change to this for Assassin.
• Fan of Knives is still pretty poor for AOE. Why not give more combo points when multiple mobs are hit, or just increase the damage component some?
• The new raid ability which reduces mob damage by 3% could be good, interested see how this will work out. Currently not implemented so can’t test. My gut tells me 3% will turn out to be a decent HPS amount. But, assassin is so far behind other specs, I can’t see playing this in any form right now.
• AOE is just not very good right now compared to Outlaw, but better than Assassination.
• ST is adequate, but once the bug with Shadow Dance is fixed, it should be better (currently Shadow Dance only provides 1 charge)
• Sub having NO RAID ability whatsoever could be problematic for a raid spot.
• 2 Charges of Vanish! (Currently not implemented though to test it)
• New ability “Shadow Mist” – expels clouds you are supposed to go run through to refresh CD of Shadowstep and ‘super-charge’ a combo point. Not sure about this having to chase clouds all over the place. Not implemented yet so can’t test it. Having to ‘chase’ a combo point has felt wield in SL when the rogue also has the Seal Fate ability (especially when the charged combo point is #2)
• I’m dubious Secret Technique will get much use – CD is too long and just isn’t good enough to take currently.
• Right now probably the overall best spec for rogue. Blade Flurry seems pretty good right now. This spec is the least energy starved of all the specs.
• AOE increased to 8 targets (with the talent Dancing Steel) @ 60% of normal damage. This is overall a much better upgrade for Outlaw. Hard cap of 5 targets now on live just plain disappointing. [Bonus damage reduced from 5% on live to 3% on alpha for taking the talent ‘Precise Cuts’ – not sure why the nerf on this.]
• You get Grapple Hook AND Shadow Step! (BUT Grapple Hook is still BUGGED, where it will cast, extend, then not pull you to the grapple point and still go on CD. This is currently a thing on live, and still hasn’t been fixed). It bugs generally when casting through terrain or where terrain is not completely flat, or you aren’t looking down on your grapple point. Hopefully it will get fixed soon or before it goes live.
• Restless Crew party ability! – My testing tells me that this should provide 10-15 sec per min of cooldown reduction as the rogue spends combo points. (I was able to spend ~50 combo points per minute testing with L68 gear, this equates to ~10 sec of CDR per minute – expect this to go up a bit @ L70 with proper gear)
• Roll the Bones - it’s still very much RNG on what buffs, BUT there’s talents which make it much easier to get a 2nd buff (like with current live soulbinds and abilities). This makes it better, but I think it could be better still and more ‘predictable’ (e.g. balance the buffs a bit more to make them all generally worthwhile, or give 2 buffs?)
• Killing Spree still there as a talent. Doubt this will get much use as the CD is still 2 mins and it’s a risk to use. If this spell had a 1 minute or so CD, AND was less risky to use, then maybe it could make a comeback. I’ll be passing on this in current form, just not worth it. I think the riskiness of this ability deters a lot of rogues from using.
• At L70, Outlaw should be able to have both Blade Rush AND Dancing Steel. This is a good QOL change as it will give Outlaw more tools for ST and AOE at the same time.
Okay, now that I’ve said my piece about Shadow Dance let me give the rest of my thoughts on pve Outlaw and the rogue tree from that spec perspective (and why I might have changed my mind about Shadow Dance being necessary).
Rogue general tree:
Garrote feels weird as the only damage ability in the top half of the tree. It almost feels pointless except as an ability you have to watch every 18 seconds on a single or maybe two target fight. Babysitting a dot in a non-dot spec isn’t generally the most fun playstyle.
The other abilities on the top section are almost all necessary (well, Gouge isn’t great but you need it to get to the other important stuff). You’d never drop Evasion, Cloak, Mind-Numbing Poison, or Tricks. So, basically just getting back current utility. This is actually fine at this point in the tree, but it kind of makes you never want to go to any of the other branching utility points because you have to have these.
Starting in section two I think there are two ways you can generally go down this path. A commitment to the right side of the tree to eventually get Shadow Dance (with a few points in the middle to get down to Acrobatic Strikes and Vigor which is actually incredibly necessary on this route) or a middle/left build that gives you a focus on crits and heavy combo point generation.
If you go right you pick up everything there and probably So Versatile buff in the middle tree, but Improved Ambush could also be very strong here with Shadow Dance. If you go middle/left you pick up everything in the middle and Deadly Precision in the left. Poison damage isn’t really Outlaw’s thing, so Virulent Poisons is essentially worthless.
edit: Forgot to talk about Cold Blood. Love it in this side of the tree, but is there any reason why the left side of the tree (and Echoing Reprimand) isn’t affected by Restless Blades? That feels like an oversight and should be treated like the other side of the tree. Why have MfD and Shadow Dance affected but not Cold Blood and Thistle Tea.
Section three is where things start to get spicy depending on playstyle (and where the most personalization comes in I think).
If you’re going into Shadow Dance (which the early consensus is that most people will) I think you have to also take Vigor. Having played around with this for quite some time I think people are vastly overestimating just how many Ambushes they’re going to be able to get off during a Shadow Dance window. In general during my testing it was around 3-4 (plus one Dispatch). Remember that Ambush is 50 energy each time you press it. If you start Shadow Dance and hit it twice, you sit there for quite a while before you’re able to hit it again. You need 3 of them to fill your (assumedly) 6 combo points for Dispatch. So at this point you’re probably around 5-6 seconds into your 9 second window. You hit Dispatch after getting enough energy for THAT and then you maaaaaybe fit one more Ambush in at the end. With Vigor and/or Improved Ambush you can get away with more in your short window and that’s massively important with this build.
Middle/left tree for my personal preference I would go Lethality and Alacrity, then Vigor and Deeper Stratagem. Take Leeching Poison and then Seal Fate to round it out. Alacrity and Lethality are probably necessary for everyone. Deeper Stratagem is nice, as is Vigor and sims can figure those out. Leeching Poison needs to be changed to use lethal poisons or else it needs to be put in the Assassination tree. Absolutely worthless here for other specs that don’t have access to Deadly Poison. Thistle Tea, nope never for Outlaw. Echoing Reprimand is an option, but I’d rather put the points into Seal Fate personally with this build because you’ll get the extra anima charged points in the Outlaw tree.
Okay, top section here first. Obviously you take just about everything that leads down to other paths. Adrenaline Rush, Between the Eyes, and Roll the Bones are 100% necessary in every situation. There’s a world where you don’t take Grappling Hook, but probably not as things stand because that side of the tree gives you huge returns for minimal point investment. The side branches seem like generally pvp oriented things so I’ll skip over all those. Weaponmaster and Ambidexterity are build-dependent options and have their place depending on where you’re putting points. I like that they’re options without being forced into them because of connections.
Section two is fantastic, with so many good options for so many different builds. This is the real meat of the tree and where you get to start really customizing according to your playstyle and content.
Left side first, let’s talk about these two Ambush talents. Now these aren’t implemented yet for testing, but they seem STRONG. Heavy Hitter is essentially a free Echoing Reprimand every time you hit Ambush. Since I couldn’t test it I don’t know if these override each other or not. If they do (like I had point 2 supercharged and I hit Ambush then 2 became normal and 3 was supercharged) then the talent is good but not great. If they stack and you can have multiple supercharged points this way then it’s incredible. Especially in Shadow Dance where you’re hitting Ambush a lot. Audacity is likewise a great talent, but it really shines in combination with Fan the Hammer later on in the tree. Honestly, I see you taking both of these with every build. Ghostly Strike you know and love, great for single-target. Improved Slice and Dice leaves me with questions. Does using it at 7 combo points add to an existing SnD? Does Grand Melee add the extra attack speed to the duration? Could be good, needs testing when it’s implemented. Triple Threat is okay, nothing to write home about.
Middle part is fine. It’s necessary points. You have to take Restless Blades, always and forever. The two Roll the Bones buffs are very small increases, I would probably never take either unless they’re buffed. Deeper Stratagem here is good, probably necessary if you didn’t take it in the general tree. Likewise Fatal Flourish if you didn’t take Vigor. Count the Odds is another that I think you always take, ESPECIALLY with Shadow Dance.
Right side has your bigger aoe talents, but there’s a case for taking points here in single-target as well. Combat Stamina is always nice to take, but probably not necessary until high m+ content where you just take unavoidable damage. Long Arm of the Law, beautiful. Having a crazy amount of range during big aoe pulls without putting yourself in the fire is so good. DANCING STEEL finally we can hit more than 5 targets! The duration is the icing on the cake but the increased target cap is the real important thing here. Thank you, I felt so impotent in the Ardenweald wing of DoS every damn time. Improved Main Gauche yeah okay, maybe this makes mastery a stat worth taking for us at some point. Dreadblades is a pickup for Shadow Dance. That’s it. It doesn’t sync up well but it will make some Shadow Dance windows very strong.
Section three has options, but I don’t love most of them. Sepsis? I mean, Sepsis? Literally the only covenant ability that Outlaw never played is the one that gets put in our tree. Absolutely bonkers. Replace that with Serrated Bone Spike and you’ll have happy rogues. You only take this for the two after it because you have to. Take 'em by Surprise and Hidden Opportunity look great for a single target build based around Ambush procs or Shadow Dance. Like most things, needs testing (like, do double Ambush strikes give double combo points, etc). Blade Rush and Killing Spree I can honestly say I never see you taking either of these. You just don’t really need them. Shrug. Restless Crew, yup. Always in group content. No exceptions, you take this. Dispatcher and Keep it Rolling, I have no idea. Could be great with certain buffs, could be that the cooldown is just too huge. Likewise with Dispatcher. Good in certain situations (Dreadblades and Shadow Dance), but otherwise that 5 second window might be too small. Precise Cuts, great talent. Makes our cleave so much stronger without giving anything up. Fan the Hammer I think you only ever put one point into and only in a build where you’re fishing for Ambush procs from Audacity. Which is a playstyle I think will be really fun and I look forward to it, but I don’t need a second extra stack for that. Greenskins isn’t great. It’s good currently with our tier set, but without the extra Between the Eyes shots I think it’s just wasted points here. Just doesn’t happen often enough to be a capstone.
Outlaw Talent Tree Bugs:
Here’s what I’ve found so far that needs addressing. Some talents still aren’t implemented, I’ll test those later:
Grappling Hook - Hook extends, but sometimes won’t pull rogue to grapple point (due to terrain, etc), and ability goes on cooldown.
Ace Up Your Sleeve - Talent currently won’t give the extra 4 combo points. Would expect 20% chance without Deeper Strat & 24% chance with Deeper Stratagem
Ruthlessness – This may not actually be a bug, but if you have Deeper Stratagem, I would occasionally get a 2nd bonus combo point. I think this makes sense as 6 combo points, x 20% chance per combo point = 120% chance. The extra combo point is coming from the 6th combo point I’m guessing.
Restless Blades – The cooldown of Shadow Dance is not being reduced by this talent after spending combo points. Maybe a tooltip error? (but, Killing Spree WAS having it’s cooldown reduced by this talent, even though Killing Spree isn’t mentioned in the tooltip).
Quick Draw - The Extra combo point procs, but I don’t think the 50% damage is working/applying. Opportunity provides double damage, Quick Draw provide 50% more damage, and Wickers provides 300% damage (after using 5+ combo points for Between the Eyes). I don’t think this all adding up correctly. Not sure if these damage bonus multipliers are supposed to be additive or multiplicative, but something that needs to be looked at.
Count the Odds - Doesn’t appear to be working – never could get a RTB buff to proc while using Ambush or Dispatch.
Killing Spree – Not sure if this is a bug, but this talent’s cooldown is affected by Restless Blades. Restless Blades tooltip doesn’t mention Killing Spree currently.
Fan the Hammer - Double strikes of sinister strike are not granting bonus buffs of Opportunity. I would expect to see opportunity buffs start to stack, correct? Currently not happening. Don’t think this talent is working as advertised.
Greenskin’s Wickers – This talent does not provide any increases to Pistol Shot after a 5+ combo point Between the Eyes. After doing testing with and without this talent, there was no changes to my pistol shot damage after a between the eyes.
Button bloat. There are quite a few too many buttons. Most of the decent talents are locked behind additional buttons (new and old) I don’t necessarily want. Extra utility should be options, not bottlenecks. Some of the new buttons feel rather pointless/lacking in synergy/you’d just macro this into a builder (looking at Cold Blood).
I figured the DF rework would have been a prime opportunity to just get rid of Slice and Dice, but alas, it remains a boring button you have to push once at the start of every fight
Cheat Death being so far down the right side of the tree feels really bad, as not only is it locked behind yet another button, but it’s a hefty investment for a staple Rogue ability.
For Assassination, Venomous Wounds is WAY too far down the tree. This is a must-have to even make the spec playable, otherwise it’s 90% waiting for resource. I can’t imagine trying to level as an assassination rogue without it.
Sub Rogue’s tree actually seems pretty good. I like it, although I’ll miss 2 charges of Shadow Dance. What is odd however is the placement of Find Weakness on the general Rogue tree (!) as it’s once more pretty crucial to Sub’s single-target damage. You’d expect taking Shadow Dance a 2nd time (on the general tree) to add that 2nd charge of Shadow Dance, but it doesn’t.
I dislike Garotte being added to the kit. I already didn’t like having to go out of my way to keep Rupture up, but now I also have to manage Garotte? I would just play Assassination if I wanted to juggle DoTs.
Currently none of the talents that would add a second charge of an ability are working. They’ve stated in other class posts that the intention is for them to add a second charge, it just isn’t working properly yet.
I’ve been trying to think of ways to make Shadow Dance not so oppressive for Outlaw while still being good enough to want to take for some or most. I think you can do this with two changes.
Remove the extra chance and duration of RtB procs from Count the Odds while stealthed. Or at least one of those. It would still be good and you can still use it to fish for Keep it Rolling procs without having what is almost a guaranteed 6-stack.
Take Shadow Dance off the CDR from Restless Blades. At a 1-minute cooldown it’s already powerful as it is. Having that reduced further is just straight unnecessary.
Thank you for moving Marked for Death! I’m personally still unsure about MfD and Cold Blood being blockers in the Rogue tree. MfD forces people into a playstyle change, but Cold Blood for PvE players just seems like something that will go into an Eviscerate or Black Powder macro? Also, this would be Subtlety’s 4th damage increase button
Both the rogue and the Subtlety tree feel better to me in this build. Personally I find Thistle Tea bizarre, but my only interaction with it so far is seeing it in Torghast. Partially because of Weaponmaster and Shadow Techniques, I do not enjoy the Supercharge / Animacharge mechanic. So two capstones are already out for me, which is a shame. I play from a different region though, so maybe this is easier to manage on lower latency?
I find Shroud’s movement speed buff fun as a Subtlety flavour thing, similar to how Sprint lets us run on water for a little bit (which also seems to be missing at the moment). As a talent point and in comparison to e.g. Outlaw’s raid buff, it does not feel very exciting. Essentially it seems I’m just choosing whether my team will have to summon their mounts or not.
In general, the Rogue tree seems to have less connectivity compared to other trees, which makes things feel somewhat deterministic. I know Evoker’s brand new, and there’s a bunch of old rogue expectations that are invisible to me, but the difference in connectivity is pretty stark.
I miss Soothing Darkness as it was a bit of help as I spent my time exploring zones. It saved me a couple of times from some overambitious pulls! It was just a nice subtlety-specific thing
Finally, I’m a little sad there are no choice nodes! I’m not going to give suggestions because that’s counterproductive, but if you want to try some ridiculous new ability ideas… I would at least be interested in seeing them : P
In case it helps to know: I started playing at the beginning of Shadowlands. I do world stuff a lot! I also do mythic+ dungeons, and heroic raid. I personally care more about the feel of the spec than a numerical advantage. I don’t do PvP
I wanted to make a post about a really big problem in Rogue right now on Alpha, but this concept is also looking to be problematic in other classes as well.
As a preface, I think the changes made in this build to all of the Rogue spec trees and the general tree are nothing but good, very happy so far and this is just the third build of Alpha so bravo.
The big problem I wanted to discuss is the installation of utility into Rogue. Now the issue is that the utility installed is spec restricted utility. This is a massive, and I mean MASSIVE issue in a pure DPS class. I am sure people are aware of popular community figures/streamers talking about how Assassination/Outlaw look to have a pretty cozy spot in the raid, and with the implementation of even more party/raid utility in other classes, this constricts the freedom that players are allowed in raid composition. Subtlety being left out of the raid utility party basically just… deletes the spec from raid content, and potentially even dungeon content? We can talk about hypothetical situations where utility tax is implemented and specs that lack utility are now tuned way up throughput wise, but we know that this hypothetical world doesn’t exist, that just isn’t how the game is tuned and it would be silly for it to be tuned that way. Shadow Priest would have to be hit with a several thousand personal DPS tax in Dragonflight since they get double PI.
Another problem with the utility that you guys are trying to implement is that a lot of it is party bound, for example the new Restless Crew. This increased amount of party bound utility/buffs is in itself a big problem. Lets say the best benefactors of Restless Crew end up being Mages, or Warlocks, whatever. The Outlaw Rogue is now placed into the party with 2 Mages and 2 Warlocks. Well now the Outlaw Rogue player himself is sad, he now no longer gets the Windfury Totem that his Enhancement Shaman is bringing. Now you have some tank in the Windfury group. But wait, there’s more. You’re on a really hard fight where theres a lot of AoE type damage. Now you need to throw your Preservation Evoker into the group with your squishiest players so they can use Zephyr on them, but the squishiest players are also the same ones in the Restless Crew group. I hope I painted the picture well enough, I didn’t even reach into things like Stoneskin/Mana Spring Totems.
I am begging that you guys seriously reconsider just dumping all of this new utility stuff into the game. All you are doing is creating a bigger problem, this doesn’t fix anything. You are just creating more mandatory raid slots, restricting player freedom when composing raids or choosing what spec to play. Imagine some new player really enjoys the gameplay and theme of Subtlety Rogue and wants to play it, and then when he applies to raid he’s told that the spec he plays is totally unviable because it doesn’t bring Atrophic Poison or Restless Crew. It just wouldn’t feel good.
If you’ve read this far, I appreciate your time invested in reading my feedback.
Here’s my latest thoughts on rogue in current alpha build this week:
• So last build this spec had many challenges, and I provided feedback as much. This build, things have definitely changed for the better.
• Before, energy regen was a huge problem. After I worked on a talent build which helps with energy regeneration, it seems to be right where I hoped it would be. The spec overall feels pretty solid on single target & cleave. AOE I think is still not good as compared to Outlaw & Sub. Why does Fan of Knives still only give 1 combo point? I’m still having a hard time keeping up slice and dice though – almost need to increase this talent to give 3 sec of slice and dice per combo point spent on Envenom (OR make the 2 second increase work with any finisher, not just Envenom).
• Kingsbane makes a return! Tested it this week, seems slightly weak for a rank 10 talent though. Would be nice if I could see some number to compare this one to other Row 10 talents.
• Deathmark (which replaces Vendetta) seems to be working better / as intended. This ability basically duplicates your garrote, rupture & lethal poisons on the target for 15 sec. It’s an ok ability, but certainly doesn’t feel like a big CD for Assassin. I hate seeing a signature ability tied to a specific target – this was the problem with Vendetta.
• I’m seeing synergy with Marked For Death (instant 5 combo points), Crimson Tempest (AOE bleed), and Exsanguinate. I can easily get a fresh garrote, a 5-point rupture and a crimson tempest on a target, then press Exsanguinate. Exsanguinate causes your bleeds to bleed out twice as fast, on a 45 sec CD – pretty good burst on a short timer that all seems to line up nicely. [Also I would try to line all this up with Deathmark – unsure if the duplicated dots are getting the exsanguinate or not]
• Assassin can have both Crimson Tempest AND Poison Bomb as talents. Poison Bomb’s proc is unreliable, which has always been biggest complaint from the rogue community for this ability. We’ll see how this shakes out. Just wish poison bomb’s proc was a little more predictable.
• Hello Serrated Bone Spike – nice change to give assassination this ability. Felt good to have this ability in the spell book for all kinds of content. I think this was a good change.
• The 3% damage reduction poison is not implemented yet, so not sure how this one will shake out. Should be a useful ability on boss fights. Curious to see how this equates to HPS.
• I still think Assassin will fall pretty far behind in content that requires AOE output. Single and cleave it will still do just fine. I haven’t tested the talent which puts rupture on all targets in a radius – maybe this week I can give this one a go. 1.5 min CD was a deterrent. I tend to think of time between pack pulls in dungeons – perhaps a CD closer to 1 min would make this talent more attractive.
• Although Assassin can pick Shiv two times in the talents (I’m guessing this will have a 2nd charge when the charges are implemented?). I guess this 2nd charge of Shiv could help keep one in reserve for an on-demand enrage removal from a target perhaps?
• Not a whole lot of changes to the Outlaw build this time, and it feels about that same as I previously reported. I think Outlaw is in a pretty good place. Although this week I did notice I was really starving for energy playing this build. Not sure what changed to make Outlaw be so short on energy though this time around.
• Outlaw can now stack up buff procs of Opportunity to 6 buffs (this buffs pistol shot to cost half energy and double damage). BUT, it’s nearly impossible to use all 6 buffs/charges of the procs before the buff falls off. Between energy starvation and the global cooldown and casting finishers, I couldn’t all the charges before the buff was up. Why not look at extending the duration of the buff so we can use these charges more reliably? Or reduce the stack from 6 or 4 and give a slightly increase in damage? I even played around using this with Dreadblades to get off several 5 point eviscerates, but I was so energy starved couldn’t do it reliable and use all the charges.
• I played around with Killing Spree more this week. Damage seems pretty good, but still, it’s an elevated risk ability when you press that ability due to how the spell ‘ports’ you around as you do damage. Lots of times in dungeons it would land me bad stuff, and I would take unnecessary damage requiring a heal. I don’t know still if this will truly make a comeback. I almost could use it on every pack in dungeons, if not every other pack reliably do to CDR with restless blades.
• Biggest elephant in the room is Sub doesn’t have any raid/party utility. Sadly I think many will pass on this spec because of this solely if they are wanting a raid spot on some rosters. More casual raid teams probably not, but other raid teams will need some form of raid utility from the class for the spot. Why not move a utility from the other trees into the base rogue tree? This way all 3 rogue specs has a shot a taking a utility talent.
• Sub got an AOE buff this build with a talent that provides a 100% crit chance on their AOE ability Shuriken Storm when cast from stealth, vanish or shadow dance. Small increase only though. Not sure how this will play out – with a 2nd shadow dance charge maybe this would be a decent AOE damage increase.
• Hard to properly test Sub as shadow dance should have 2 stacks but currently is limited to 1 stack. Assassination seems pretty much on par with Sub right now on ST, just as a general comment.
• Biggest problem with Sub is there is no synergy for any kind of cleave DPS. Sub really has a lack of cleave in its tool kit. It’s AOE or ST only for the most part. If you have 2-3 targets, might as well change specs. Replicating Shadows talent sort of addresses this (adds rupture to 1 additional enemy), but an extra rupture in the larger scheme of things is not much, as compared to Assassin or Outlaw.
My comments below are for current build in Alpha (version 10.0.0.44999, week of 8/10/2022), and are primarily for Assassination PVE builds and playstyle:
• Hopefully soon someone from the development team can give us rogues some feedback on what’s going on with the class in Alpha. I’m super jealous to see interaction from other classes and the developers and nothing so far for rogues.
• First off, move the utility talents (Atrophic Poison (Assassin) and Restless Crew (Outlaw)) over to the main rogue tree. Many testers have said this, and I whole-heartedly agree. No reason to put these talents in a specific spec. And most importantly, you are leaving Sub rogues behind as they get no type of group/party utility. Just do the right thing and move this over to the main tree.
• General thought on assassins – why do we have to specifically pick talents to be good at either ST/cleave or AOE? Why can’t we be strong in both like MANY other classes? DPS warriors as an example seem to be able to do it all without sacrificing one or the other. Currently on live Outlaw rogues can do fairly well in both ST and AOE and this is a great case study on how it be good at both simultaneously. Assassin historically is feast or famine – you have to constantly pick talents one way or the other for ST or AOE (and can’t do this obviously in M+).
• Lot of discussion regarding slice and dice in the rogue community. Some want it removed altogether, some think it’s fine as it is, and some want to see a newer version that has more engagement with the player. In its current form it just doesn’t feel rewarding when you press and maintain the buff. You press it to get the buff and that’s about it. I just think if this is going to be in the game, it should be more exciting to press. If you take 2/2 ‘Cut to the Chase’ as Assassin, you pretty much cast it once & forget about it. This isn’t very exciting as a playstyle. I think the rogue community would just like to get some feedback and thoughts on slice and dice in its current form.
• Why do we have Shiv twice (one in assassin tree and one in main rogue tree)…are we supposed to have 2 charges if the 2nd one is taken as Assassin? Also, strange that Assassin have 4 separate talents that deal solely with Shiv –> Shiv (base tree), Shiv (assassin tree), Improved Shiv, and finally Tiny Toxic Blade). Also, PLEASE separate the enrage removal affect from Shiv for Assassin rogues. We should not have this feature baked into this ability which is a core rotational spell. This means if you have to ‘hold’ Shiv for enrage dispels (typically dungeons), you take a significant DPS loss. Why not make one of the talents something that splits these 2 apart and creates a new ability for assassin which removes enrages?)
• Energy regeneration is still really slow for Assassin. I feel there are several talents which help this, but I feel like these are also almost mandatory talents subsequently to keep energy regeneration at an acceptable level. Slow energy refills feel awful as an assassin rogue. I think more development can be done in terms of energy regeneration.
• Tight Spender –this talent is bugged and does not provide energy reduction on finishers.
• By activating Deathmark, I would think this should also interact with ‘Dashing Scoundrel’ as far as the energy regeneration. Since ‘Deathmark’ is duplicating my garrote & rupture, then those duplicated bleeds should produce energy regeneration from their crits. I don’t think there’s any extra energy regeneration from the duplicated bleeds currently. Can we get some explanation on exactly how Deathmark’s mechanics work on a target? (Also, can’t we come up with a better name for this talent? I mean we already have ‘Marked for Death’ and now we also have ‘Deathmark’, lol? – why not call it ‘Go For the Jugular’ or something cool like that)
• Improved Garrote just doesn’t work, there is a 5 sec CD when you cast garrote from stealth, and it isn’t providing increased garrote damage. I should be able to get off 3 or 4 garrotes from stealth before it goes on cooldown with the ability. (Currently I must take Subterfuge to get the 3 extra seconds to cast garrote subsequent times before it goes on cooldown). Also, the 2 talents don’t interact in any way regarding to the 3 seconds (should they? – just seems odd to have 2 talents that have meshing functions that don’t interact). Also, if I take Subterfuge and NOT Improved Garrote, Garrote doesn’t have a CD for the 3 seconds.
• Seal Fate for Assassination in ST is underwhelming – 2 talent points to get a (low) chance at 1 more combo point when casting Mutilate. It does, however, work nicely with Fan of Knives in an AOE type build. In this scenario, Fan of Knives can produce several combo points off crits. You give up a lot to have this type of AOE playstyle, mainly gutting your ST output. I would probably only take this talent if I were going an AOE type build.
• Using ‘Indiscriminate Carnage’ on a group of mobs that already have a garrote or rupture, will sometimes cause the ability to fail to refresh the garrote and rupture on all targets. On a group of 4 mobs, I would have rupture & garrote on the targets, then use ‘Indiscriminate Carnage’, then the following garrote and rupture would not spread to all 4 targets as expected (sometimes it would maybe spread to 1 other target). On the initial use of this ability with no bleeds on targets, this seemed to work fine. I could not produce this bug every time but maybe something to just look at.
• Having to spend 5 x talent points just to get to Rank 10 Dragon-Tempered Blades feels somewhat punishing, as it only takes 4 x talent points to get to the other two Rank 10 abilities (Kingsbane and Indiscriminate Carnage). Poison bomb should be made into 1 talent that gives a 10% chance per combo point spent to proc the bomb.
• Envenom is not consuming Amplification Poison. My target would just build stacks to 20, and stay at 20 stacks of this poison after casting an Envenom.
• I think most rogues feel ‘Cheat Death’ is almost a darn near mandatory talent. This talent is way down the list (row 9), and to get to it you have to spend 5 other talent points on lesser utility type talents and down a very specific talent path (Shadowstep, Improved Sap, Tight Spender, Cold Blood). I really would like to see this ability moved up to Row 2, or at least someone higher that makes more sense.
• I said this before, but Leeching Poison should work with any Lethal Poison and not just Deadly or Wound. This should also work if you take & use Amplification Poison.
My comments below are for the current build of Outlaw Rogue, in a PVE environment (build 10.0.0.44999):
• General gameplay comments: Overall I think Outlaw is not in a bad spot. With the introduction of Shadow Dance in the rogue main tree, this provides some unique opportunities for Outlaw.
Shadow Dance can be used to cast 4-6 Cheap Shots on trash packs in a M+ type environment.
Shadow Dance can be used to apply ‘Find Weakness’ to a main target, using Ambush to gain combo points, then Dispatch to spend those points. I could usually get 4-5 Ambushes & Dispatches off in a SD window, while expending points with Dispatch. This also works well with the talent ‘Dispatcher’ which increases dispatch damage while costing less energy. (But there’s currently a bug with “Improved Ambush” as it will give you max combo points regardless).
Shadow Dance can be used in conjunction with Killing Spree and Blade Flurry on a pack of mobs, to give you an extra 10% AOE from the Shadow Dance. Killing Spree is still inherently a dangerous ability to press, as the ‘teleports’ can land you in bad stuff on the ground and take unnecessary damage.
• ‘Subterfuge’ causes the rogue to drop out of stealth after casting Grappling Hook. I reported this bug in game as well.
• Why are there 2 talents for ‘Deeper Stratagem’?..I was thinking if I took both, then I would have 7 combo points max, but this isn’t the case. You can only get 6 max, even though the talent tooltip says “Gain 1 additional max combo point”. Why even have both of these in the first place?
• Outlaw energy regeneration is largely just fine – mainly due to the talent ‘Combat Potency’ (30% increase in energy regen). But, there’s currently a bug, as ‘Combat Potency’ and ‘Vigor’ are not interacting correctly. [on a side note, I think there’s a bug where if you switch talents in game, and save the talents, they aren’t truly being saved/applied – you have to restart the game for them to take effect]
I was expecting that if I take both Vigor and Combat Potency I would benefit from both the 30% and 15% regeneration gains. But, in testing it seems when you take both talents, Vigor will ‘override’ your energy regen, and you only get the 15%.
See numbers below – I did a stop watch timer on how long it took me to regen back to full after casting an ambush from stealth. In all scenarios I was expending 50 energy. These numbers are the best I could do given I was pressing a stopwatch on my phone:
Combat Potency Only (30%) => 2.2 sec
Both Combat Potency + Vigor (30% + 15%) => 3.5 sec;
Vigor only (15%) => 3.7;
Neither Vigor nor Combat Potency (0%) => 4.5 sec
• ‘Count the Odds’ still is not working – it will never provide an additional combat enhancement buff regardless of how many dispatches or ambushes you cast. (I would expect a 60% chance while casting ambush either from stealth or after pressing Shadow Dance). I’ve yet to get one proc from this ability.
• Greenskin Wickers. So, this talent is still bugged and doesn’t do anything to Pistol Shot after casting a 5 or 6 point Between the Eyes. Here’s the numbers I observed below for Pistol Shot:
Pistol Shot (not buffs/procs) – 860 dmg normal / 2,000 dmg crit
Pistol Shot (Opportunity proc) – 2,000 normal / 5,000 dmg Crit
Pistol Shot (after a 6-Point BTE) – 860 dmg normal / 2,000 crit
Pistol Shot (after a 6-Point BTE & Opportunity Proc) – 2,000 normal / 5,000 Crit
• ‘Take ‘em by Surprise’ isn’t working correctly. After taking 2/2 on this talent, my haste stat doesn’t change, and I have a buff saying “Haste increased by 10%”. With 2/2 I’m supposed to get 20% haste, and I would expect to see this 20% on my character screen. Not sure why Outlaw would want this either, haste typically isn’t an important stat for us.
• ‘Keep It Rolling’ as a Row 10 ability is hugely disappointing. 30 sec of extra buffs on a 5-min cooldown? I could handle the 5-min cooldown if this talent guaranteed 3-5 enhancement buffs for 30 or 60 sec. You could really save this ability then for those times you need a big burst. Outlaw isn’t really known much for burst so this could be something if it were changed to guarantee more buffs from RTB.
Sub rogue feels god awful. I’m not sure if its because the spec has more bugs than AQ 40, or if It actually just straight up feels worse than it’s Shadowlands version.
Can’t stack talents if they are in a different trees, meaning can’t have two dances or deeper (step works though?). Perforated veins isn’t applied on Shadowstrikes, Shadowed Finishers is just straight up not working, Replicating Shadows is still NYI, Shadow Mist still NYI, Lingering Shadow’s only gives 50% additional dmg on backstab not 100%,
I’ve been working a lot lately, but in a bit, I wanna make an in-depth post or something about why I don’t like the talent trees for rogues. From a PVP standpoint this doesn’t really look healthy for the game. Sub rogue had infinite mobility in legion and it got removed for a reason; didn’t work then, I don’t see it working now. Then there’s other things like sepsis, shadowdust, and gloomblade modifiers that just promotes cheesy and boring gameplay.