FEEDBACK: Rogue Class Changes

It didn’t use to, and would even apply the damage but keep you in stealth. Though I suppose for PvP clarity sake this is why it now removes you from stealth. However, I feel like it should only remove you from stealth if you deal damage with it so you can activate it pre-pull instead of having to go BF -> Stealth -> Ambush.

This is a misconception. Vial was nerfed more than likely because Blizzard thinks Rogue has too high sustain in PvP as a melee class. Sustain in raids will still be high due to Recuperator Conduit.

In regards to Pick Pocket mechanic, that was probably scrapped due to it not hitting the mark for the “feel” they wanted out of it.

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Was that ever even in the alpha/beta in order to test the feel of?

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No, but they have a pretty good internal feel for what would actually feel good to use.

Having to spam pick pocket in M+ for Crimson Vial would be a terrible mechanic.

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I can agree with that. Its just disappointing that for a (somewhat?) looked forwards to mechanic/fun update we never even got to see it.

There would be plenty of ways to make it work out, but I feel like it just got tossed aside way too easily given they went ahead with completely remaking one of our covenant abilities as well.

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I think it’s pretty apparent that Rogue got the least amount of work due to being in a relatively healthy spot coming out of BfA. The first initial round of Blue Posts was probably just stuff in the pipeline, not stuff that was already implemented, but as Beta time went on and they had to put more and more time into Shamans, Shadow Priests, Feral/Balance Druids, and various Covenants, the Rogue pipeline was shut off pretty quickly.

I’m not mad about it. Like I said, Rogue was in a healthy spot coming out of BfA and going into Shadowlands seems to be the best melee DPS for Raids, M+, and PvP. Can’t really complain too much.

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Hard to say. They never said why they nerfed it. I think Recuperator was added in later, wasn’t it? Regardless, I do agree, the pick pocket minigame would be kind of annoying in the long run. Unless it was a permanent augmentation. That could be cool. They hide the augments in special locations that require you to do "Rogue Stuff :wink: " to get. While, I am not fond of more inventory crap, could be fun.

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Just echoing that blade flurry removes stealth when cast (now on both live, where you don’t have the instant dmg component at 50 and on beta). Is this intended? Seems like a bug as it hasn’t been mentioned in any patch notes I’ve seen.

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It would be cool to have a glyph for shadow dance animation because not everyone wants to glow purple.

Also why was the Adrenaline Rush animation changed? Right now Outlaw Rogue looks like a BM hunter every time they pop AR. What was wrong with the other animation? It wasn’t noticeable?

And Blade Flurry is indeed bugged as you are thrown out of stealth when activating while in stealth.

:surfing_woman:t2: :surfing_man:t2:

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Didn’t get to check it, but in pvp,
if I flag my main target, then say I need to do a hard switch and we sheep or blind him, would the flag debuff still remain? Meaning if we start pounding target 2, would I break my own cc from the flag hits on target 1?

I haven’t tested that in PvP specifically, but in general it will break blind and such.

Flagellation and Sepsis really need some work.

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Improved Poisons Rank 2 appears to not be functioning at all. I made a bug report in-game. But, figured I may as well echo it here. Maybe some other players can chime in and tell me I personally broke something. :stuck_out_tongue:

I honestly don’t know what they can do at this point. Flagellation feels like a complete lost cause. But, maybe some people will like it.
Similarly with Sepsis, I am really not sure what they can do to it. The Vanish idea is most likely completely dead. Maybe they could make it have the Stealth ability cost no energy? Or maybe they could have the dispel protection scale. Like, if it’s dispelled in the first 1-2 seconds or so, the CD is reduced by 1min instead of 30s. But, changing the mechanic entirely is probably completely off the table.

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Slice and Dice cannot be used while stealthed as Assassination. It can be used while stealthed as Subtlety or Outlaw.

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I don’t really know what could be done about Flagellation, but the main problem is that the ability feels awful to use currently even though it’s the numerically superior out of all 4 covenant class abilities. It doesn’t feel good to use and it’s bad for PvP (honestly only Echoing Reprimand is good for PvP now).

Sepsis could have plenty of things done to it, but it’s in a weird place because it kinda already does what Shadow Dance does, but infinitely worse. I don’t know where the devs want to take this ability, but it’s the worst of the bunch. Maybe make it spread the poison, maybe make it jump to another target on death, maybe make it allow for 3 stealth abilities on a longer duration, just make it do something more.

The worst part about Rogue covenant abilities is you don’t even notice they are there anymore. The abilities themselves range from 2% to 4% DPS increase according to sims, which is already on the low side, but even when it comes to gameplay they are just there as an extra button. No engagement, no excitement, nothing.

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It’s working fine for me. I tested it out in Orgrimmar with and without Subterfuge(since that talent is generally a cause of problems). Is there any specific situations or locations you have that issue in? Maybe a macro you are using, conduit/soulbind setup, some other talent choice I didn’t try.

E:Well, I went to my hub(I’m Night Fae) and ran around trying some other things. Thought maybe you were one of those crazy people who spec in Alacrity. But, still worked fine. I don’t know, Kaeska. Very strange!

Yah. That’s why I feel like it’s mostly a lost cause. Nothing short of a redesign will save it and I highly doubt Blizzard will do anything aside from small adjustments.

As for Sepsis, there definitely are adjustments that could be made there to make it great without a redesign. So, I have some hope there. We’ll see!

Lastly, I’m not sure if they want the covenant abilities to be a significant portion of our damage. Are they for other classes? I don’t really mind if they are just some low-impact stuff. I mean, if we think back to Legion days, the artifact abilities weren’t huge on overall damage, right? But, they did do some extra stuff.
Goremaw’s Bite did quite a bit of things. lol

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Exactly my point. I don’t mind if they actually don’t account for much damage, but when they don’t and neither do something for gameplay, then what’s even the point?

  • Echoing Reprimand is just a short cooldown nuke and the combo point bingo part is hardly relevant.
  • Serrated Bone Spike is doing so little damage it’s actually laughable in AoE and ST now
  • Sepsis is a low impact DoT that grants the use of a one stealth ability every 1.5min
  • Flagellation is a longish ramp up wish single target only damage that provides a 15% Haste buff after casting at least 5 combo point finishers every 1.5min if Deeper Stratagem is taken and Haste is the least desirable stat for 2/3 of the specs.

These covenant abilities are so unimpactful and do so little that it’s hard to even get excited over getting them and I know this is not exclusive to Rogues, but some other classes have very good covenant abilities like Mirrors of Torment or Shifting Power for Mages.

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One thing they could do for Flag is to change the secondary activation so that it redirects the debuff if recast before it expires. Then just have the haste apply when the debuff expires or the target dies.

This would, A, make it useful when swapping targets, and B, wouldn’t give the mixed message of whether we should want the damage or the haste.

I like the utility of SBS. Sepsis as a DoT is utility for PVP although the extra stealth move is dubious at best for PVE/PVP since the DOT takes too long to proc that extra stealth move IMO.

Echoing Reprimand awarding those CPs really speed things up for Assassination IMO and makes Outlaw/Sub flow better.

Flagellation?

Not feeling it.

Don’t get me wrong I like the idea of messing around with a haste build for fun even if it is not optimal but in the end the payoff and ramp up time is too long for flag.

:surfing_woman:t2: :surfing_man:t2:

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Funniest part is Flagellation is actually the numerically superior ability if we were to look purely at the abilities themselves excluding soulbinds + conduits, but it just feels bad to use.

Sepsis on the other hand is bad in its entirety as in both damage and feeling and is 100% carried by strong Night Fae soulbinds as an option.

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Sepsis stealth move requires a tracker and timing because with subterfuge you know you have extra stealth moves coming out of stealth.

Plus, with Sepsis DoT as the duration ends you need to pool energy to be able to use a stealth move.

But Cheap shot was nerfed from 2 CPS to 1 CP and Ambush isn’t moving the needle for anyone.

I guess IF you time it right in PVP you can land a free Sap on another target???

Flag probably works with better gear down the line.

:surfing_woman:t2: :surfing_man:t2: