FEEDBACK: Rogue Class Changes

After the fix on the pvp cooldown reduction on vanish chest legendary night fae is very fun and fast paced to play.

Bit rough not getting the vanish when it’s poison dispelled against double hybrid comps, but definitely encourages some good gameplay of trying to cross CC to get the dot to stay or using shadowy duel to cover it.

The soulshape is actually pretty good for PvP as well. Even though it’s on global the inital cast of the shapeshift blinks which kind of functions as a displacer beast which you can let you catch people off guard using it with kick. Can also be used while rooted.


I know Akaari’s been nerfed heavily (assuming no more combo point generation is indeed intended), but nerfing it alone won’t suddenly make the others more interesting since all 3 other Subtlety legendaries are really bad.

Deathly Shadows

  • Vanish grants 5 combo points and increases damage done by 15% for 10s.
    • Maybe consider also reducing cooldown on Vanish by 30s and/or increasing the duration of the damage buff.


  • Eviscerate, Rupture and Shadow Vault increase the damage of the next use of the finishing move by 20%.
    • This seems a bit weak, maybe making it also deal X% damage in shadow damage or making your next Eviscerate, Rupture or Shadow Vault deal full shadow damage on top of the increased damage would make it feel more appealing.

The Rotten

  • For 2 seconds after activating Symbols of Death, your Shadowstrike and Gloomblade/Backstab generate 4 additional combo points.
    • This legendary is just so weak I don’t even know how to improve it. Maybe make it so during all of Symbols of Death our Shadowstrike and Gloomblade/Backstab will always generate 4 additional combo points. Maybe make our generators also increase the duration of the Symbols of Death buff like the Azerite trait Inevitability.

I was really really liking venthyr sub rogue on beta. The extra dmg /crit chance on slaughter from the potency conduit makes that hit super super hard and also makes your shadowblades hit hard as well. Im really liking the 100% crit chance leggo because it makes your burst on your first opener / resets / vanish goes feel impactful af.

I wish i could test the 2nd soulbind because it not only gives you a root break / snare clear on door of shadows

But I also really like the 10% vers for 10 seconds when you use slaughter on a 1min ICD. Lines up well with dance goes and I think cuz the pvp bonus would give you another 2% so it would be a 12% vers proc when your bursting.

My only issue currently is playing slaughter instead of shadowstrike just doesnt work with so much of our toolkit. I wish I could play premed with it


I have to agree with the others that the nerf to Crimson Vial is more noticeable for Rogues at lower levels. I am not sure how they can address this when Vial is clearly balanced around endgame systems and with the existence of Fitness and Endurance soul bind conduits.

It is a tough pickle because if they buff Vial back to how it was then it may make Fitness and Endurance soul binds conduits harder to balance.

But on the other hand the whole point of the expansion revamp was to make leveling classes more enticing. Rogue leveling for new players isn’t that friendly right now haha.

It is what it is I guess.


Playing around with night fae cooldown reduction build last few days has been a faster pace and very fun, but I’ve noticed a few things:

  • Sepsis vanishing doesn’t lower the CD of vanish like how vanish doesn’t lower itself with the cooldown reduction PvP chest legendary.
  • Sepsis gets reduced by 30 from vanish/sepsis vanish instead of 15 (bugged).
  • Fighting double hybrid with poison dispel or non hybrid dps with kyrian potions removing poisons is very rough for getting sepsis off at 10 seconds for how telegraphed it is. It should really be moved to 4 seconds if it’s to stay dispelable.
  • If it ends up needing a nerf not sure which would be the best approach between making the legendary 10 seconds or removing interactions with kick.
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With updates coming soon to the Shadowlands Beta, we’re updating the Venthyr ability for rogues. It will now be called Flagellation (was previously Slaughter).

Flagellation is an instant cast with a 25 second cooldown that starts once Flagellation is removed from the target. The rogue lashes the target with Anima 3 times, dealing Shadow damage and applying a debuff for 45 seconds that causes an additional lash for each Combo Point you spend. Once the target has been lashed at least 25 times, reactivating Flagellation cleanses their torment and increases your Mastery by 10% for 25 seconds.

We’re looking forward to your feedback on this, once you’ve had a chance to test it out!


Why did it have to be Shadow damage? Deeper Daggers is already nuts for Subtlety, making more things deal Shadow Damage for them just pushes them more and more ahead of Outlaw and Assassination unless both specs get some serious buffs.


Meanwhile the nightfae ability is literally unusable outside of grp content and less than optimal to use in grp content all due to forcing a vanish instead of letting the button become a vanish on re-use or refreshing the CD of normal vanish.

And kyrian is a literal nightmare fuel dumpster fire, let’s be honest. When half my spec is random combo generation trying to magically land on the random charged point isn’t even a chore, it’s literally cancer.


Good point. Honestly, Deep Daggers probably needs to go. As mentioned above somewhere, it could get to the point where it’s a dps loss to use rupture, especially since the shadow part of evisc double dips crit.

Also, regarding the mastery bonus for the new spell, that will be kinda meh for Outlaw. Obviously not everything has to be perfect for every spec, but Outlaw mastery could use… something.

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Depends entirely how certain things pan out. SnD pushes Mastery slightly higher for Outlaw than it is on BfA. Sims are still in their infancy to breakdown stat stacking, but Mastery in a world where we get some kind of trinket (hey, there’s that new crazy Darkmoon Haste trinket) + SnD + Alacrity could make Mastery a much better stat for Outlaw.

Already on Beta when I play Outlaw, MG is a top 5 damage source.

“Hey Rogue changes, maybe they’ll finally give us some new talents, or modify the other covenant abilities, or something else to make outlaw not completely terrible.”

‘Lash out across 3 minutes on the same target to gain Mastery.’

“… can we go back to Slaughter Poison?”


Slaughter was great for Assassination with Blindside, and it could’ve been great with tweaks for Subtlety and Outlaw. Having said that, I’m looking forward to trying Flagellation. Maybe it will be fun.


I think Slaughter would be cool for OL if it also triggers on Main Gauche (dunno if it does/doesn’t), additional swings of SS, and also your ranged attacks (poison-coated bullets). Making Outlaw all about the on-hit proc effects of your poison would be an interesting choice to try out, given that Grand Melee is now “baseline” with SnD, so you’re really a flurry of steel constantly swinging.

Flagellation honestly just sounds boring and forces Outlaw to be even further in the “priority target” thing it already is.


Honestly this makes the decision going with Necro Bonespike easier. Other than Sepsis being used in PVP situations not much has changed overall.

Not sure why Kyrian Echoing Reprimand hasn’t seen changes yet.


Kinda boggles the mind how they haven’t toned down Sub yet. They are dominating every aspect of high end right now. Might as well delete Outlaw and Sin from the game, no one’s going to play those as it stands.

I am not worried about tuning right now.

Right now how covenants function should be a higher priority. :+1:


True, the mastery is a bit better now. I’m mostly thinking about it from a pvp perspective where the added sustain isn’t quite as fun as deleting someone with evisc lol.

Tinfoil hat/wishful thinking theory? Maybe they’re just focusing on three covenant spells per class in case they decide to move them to a talent row. :stuck_out_tongue:

Tuning is more important because it’ll become a factor in a week or so when pre-patch is released. They still have over a month to get the covenants down.

Also tuning effects covenant abilities.

BlizZard has never balanced prepatch. Tuning for classes for the expansion come at the very end.

Plus you can’t do tuning when they are still doing changes to covenants and talents like we have seen today.


Why do people have this delusional notion that balancing doesn’t matter rn?

What does damage informs how you play the spec and do the rotation. If things aren’t at least 80% the way there then things that may have been intended or should be part of gameplay will be completely ignored simply because it isn’t worth pressing the button.

Balance informs play which informs balance, repeat the cycle until you have classes like fire mage who have been balanced into a corner where they only do godlike damage for 10 sec out of a 2 min window and tank dmg any other time and need an entire rework to get back to any reasonable state.