FEEDBACK: Rogue Class Changes

any reason the shadow damage portion of eviscerate was removed in today’s build? a bug, intended, or what?

1 Like

Probably bugged out while they were moving around the levels stuff is learned at?

Also not sure if intended since it’s not in tooltip, but Dance triggers Premed now. Which is good news if that’s not a bug.

1 Like

I was getting to 8 min duration SnD in a M+ dungeon earlier without ever casting it. I’m pretty sure it’s a bug, however glorious it is.

Oh my, yea, that it keeps applying SnD is probably bugged. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ve only had time to stab a few target dummies so far, and initially thought I was just imagining SnD getting longer. That the premed buff itself happens might be intentional though. That it’s apparently not being consumed properly could be a side effect.

1 Like

Another thing I’ve noticed is that using shiv with numbing poison doesn’t have an improved effect.

Even if it did though, I think shiving more than 15% would be rough. Shiv should just still do the 70% snare even if your using numbing.

Would make shiv still useful if playing numbing in comps where your teamates have snares.

4 Likes

Hello.
I am a Multi-Gladiator / 2800 arena player since WoD, who has been playing the game since TBC.
I used to be seriously into PVE up until about Legion, however I still partake in keys/raids.

My feedback will be mostly centered around Subtlety Rogue, as it is the spec i’m most passionate / serious about.

To start off…


POSITIVES:

SLICE & DICE:

I think the return of this ability is amazing.

A DEFINING feature of Rogue has always been having multiple finishers, each that provided different utilities / forms of damage during a fight.
In Legion & BFA, ive gotten a constant feeling that this feature of rogue has disappeared.

  • Since having Slice & Dice back, our rotation has finally felt better & more complete than it has in a long time. It has vastly improved the flow of the spec, while also adding a bit more decision-making & disparity between experienced & unexperienced Rogues.

  • Subtlety has always been a spec centered around Planning & Preemption.
    Communication with your teammates on the next setup/burst window, & making the decision based on boss mechanics / environment in the arena on when the best timeslot is to get up a PRE-Slice, or a PRE-Rupture that will affect the outcome of your performance.
    All of this allows the player to set themselves up for success, which is an amazing way to design a class/spec, & is how Sub has always / should always be.

RUPTURE:

I’m all in favor of having this back in our kit, especially over Nightblade.

Like Slice & Dice, its another iconic ability that finally returns to our kit that helps with the feel of the spec. I’ve always felt that each spec of Rogue should have a bleed; It should have rupture.

  • Additionally, having an ability like Nightblade felt clunky, especially when our “Mortal Wounds” effect was tied to it.

tldr; having Rupture back feels great & is a giant improvement over Nightblade.

SHIV:

I’m always reminded of TBC when I see this ability. The animation, sound effect, etc for this ability has always been nostalgic.
Glad to see that an oldschool ability like this is making a return to our kit, it adds for a nice little peel versus melee mobs/players.

POISONS:

While there are many abilities that are rogue-defining iconic abilities, nothing quite feels more “Rogue” than poisons.

  • Like Slice & Dice, like Rupture, like Shiv, poisons should have ALWAYS stayed in our kit. I’m glad to see it return.

SHADOW DANCE (1-CHARGE):

I think returning this ability back to a 1-charge functionality, similar to it’s old style, is a FANTASTIC change.
I’ve always loved Shadow Dance as an ability, and always thought of it as cool & unique.

  • This change makes Shadow Dance feel like a REAL cd again that rewards planning.
    Multi-Charge Dance has always felt lackluster, & frankly a put-down when it came to our main offensive CD. It didn’t feel super impactful with multiple-charges.

  • Again, Sub is a spec centered around planning & preemption. Setting up your next setup/burst, then executing on it. Having 1-Charge Dance plays into this very well, while also returning a familiar feel of burst that we once had.

PREMEDITATION:

While I would have prefered the OLD premeditation (ability that gave you 2 combo points on a CD, only useable in stealth), having this new one is a fine alternative.

  • Sub Rogue always had an identity of being able to start the rotation from stealth, being able to Premed->Slice then open was always an iconic combo. So i’m happy to see Premeditation make a return.

NEGATIVES:

FIND WEAKNESS (BEING APPLIED THROUGH FILLER ABILITIES):

While i’m mostly happy with the changes that are coming to Rogue/Sub, I can’t help but feel that this new iteration of Find Weakness feels a bit lackluster.

  • One of our layers of depth & preemption as a Subtlety Rogue came in the form of Find Weakness, it used to be a passive that felt scary, while taking some thought process & setup to it (since it could only be activated essentially through stealth abilities)

Similar to how Legions/BFA’s Multi-Charge Shadow Dance felt, this new version of Find Weakness feels rather unrewarding & less impactful than older iterations that had more reward & setup to them.


ABILITIES/PASSIVES/SYSTEMS I’D LIKE TO SEE RETURN:

GOUGE:

There seems to have been a mentality among some that due to Multi-Charge Shadow Dances, that having Gouge or Garrote would be too much for Sub.
While possibly true, I think this is a flawed way of designing the spec & shows even further that Multi-Charge Shadow Dance did more harm than good, because they came at the expense of pruning Gouge/Garrote from our kit.

  • Now that we’ve finally gone back to a Single-Charge of Shadow Dance (great change), and Cheap Shot’s cost has been increased, I think we have room to bring back a modified version of Gouge into the kit.

  • When thinking back to our old kit of Gouge, Garrote, & Disarm, it feels quite washed down when our only way of peeling for our team is through stuns, or committing a 2Min CD Blind, both of which can hurt later in the fight when it comes to playing offensively.

My suggestion is to bring back Gouge, but bring it back at like a 30-40 second CD & a 50 energy cost, which would make it rightfully weaker than Outlaws gouge, but would finally give us back some additional peeling utility that Sub has been lacking.
Even if Gouge came in the form of a PVP talent, I would still like to see its return.

DISMANTLE:

It seems that Rogue, as well as pretty much all other classes have not gotten much new in the form of PVP talents, I think returning Dismantle back as a PVP talent would be an amazing addition to Subtlety Rogue.

It would bring back an iconic ability, while also returning a niche peel / utility that would be quite helpful to Subtlety.


COVENANTS:

At the moment I have only gotten the opportunity to test Necrolord, so this will mostly just be feedback regarding this covenant.

  • Serrated Bone Spike:
    This ability feels decent. I like the animation, and from testing, the damage seems to be good as well. No real complaints here at the moment.

  • Fleshcraft: Personally i’m not a giant fan of this ability from a Rogue POV, and currently this ability provides a CC immunity for 4 seconds while channeling, and for 4 seconds AFTER channeling. I’m personally not a fan of “3rd-Party” non-class abilities providing CC immunities, but i’m glad that the CC immunity component of this ability was nerfed, because its previous iteration was absolutely ridiculous.


CONCLUSION:

This is all I have for feedback at the moment.

IN CONCLUSION, I think that Subtlety Rogue definitely feels better, & frankly A LOT more fun that it was in Legion/BFA.
Every single ability return (Shiv, Slice & Dice, Rupture, Poison, 1-charge Dance) have all played a big part in making this specs flow & playstyle feel better (and more fun)

I think that there are still improvements that could be made to the spec, but so far Subtlety Rogue as it is right now feels FUN again.

I can only hope that the vision of Blizzard for the future of class / spec design is to take a page out of old, iconic iterations of specs/classes, & adding in minor fun changes/twists, rather than feel the need to reinvent classes/specs every expansion.
So far I think Blizzard has done a decent job at this when it comes to MOST of Shadowland’s current class/spec designs, and I hope this mentality carries forward into future expansions.

Will add more feedback as I test further.

23 Likes

Eviscerate certainly not doing the 50% extra shadow damage on find weakness on the new build.

2 Likes

Akaari’s Soul Fragment [legendary power] need to be tuned in PVP. It’s incredibly broken and literally rogues are just opening healers and they die without any assistance.

It’s interaction with shadowdance is likely the culprit since you can just spam shadowstrikes and 100-0 people in openers.

3 Likes

Please tell me that is just a bug, its was too good to be removed, also, that shadow portion was moved to Shadow Vault.

Its a bug related to premeditation, it procs randomly during shadow dance.

I would really love to see Cannonball barrage returning for outlaw or just rogues in general it was a very fun ability to use in legion (then again I am a sucker for “big numbers cds” over just “empowers you ala recklessness/Crusade etc etc” I prefer my Touch of deaths etc over these.

2 Likes

Seeing the increased shadow on find weakness on shadow vault now is quite worrisom.

The Evis change was a really good change for addressing sub’s weaknesses vs plate and making find weakness more impactful.

4 Likes

It’s been there since the beginning of Alpha.

For now I’ll just be sharing my thoughts on sub
Overview
I think how sub feels is actually pretty great. Slice and Dice feels useful and impactful, most of our kit is very good. The unfortunate thing for us to be testing is that the legendary for this spec is currently bugged. I don’t know if the legendary over all is just overtuned or if it’s bugged. Hopefully some changes can be made to that which I will briefly talk about in what could be a possible approach.

Contrast
I think the thing that made sub feel good in cata and mop was that it felt consistent For the entirety of Legion and BFA sub felt severely underwhelming outside of dance, and even then dance felt weak. Sub felt like your only purpose was to spam stuns and in other instances gimmick with big eviscerates. Shadowstrike(Ambush in other expansions) was a very significant ability and I think that with the find weakness change it is re-capturing its identity as one of our bigger damage abilities.

Overview of changes
If any changes could be suggested in terms of tuning, perhaps reduce the effectiveness of Akaari’s Soul Fragment and put that back into sub’s overall kit outside of dance. Premeditation doesn’t really have any impactful use outside of the points where you get a chance to stealth again. So you’re left with weaponmaster and gloomblade. Gloomblade was a solid choice in legion. I’d actually like to be able to make use of gloomblade as opposed to weaponmaster because it’s not just a 15% chance to randomly do damage. Gloomblade has more overall opportunity to be a really good talent with the spec. A baseline increase to backstab damage would be nice or an increase in gloomblade damage.

Bug Fix?
One thing I noticed while testing is that shadow dance is not usable from stealth. I actually don’t know if this was intended or a bug? At least on live servers and I believe previous expansions you were always able to use shadow dance at any point. Unsure if there was any comments or points made on that but it was something that I took note of that I thought was strange.

PvP Talents
Honestly I think the biggest disappointment overall for class design is the lack of new pvp talents and or additions. Rogue does have an overall significant kit in terms of gameplay but I think it can be rather boring that for 3 expansions now you pretty much choose all the same thing. Shadowy Duel, Smokebomb, and cold blood. And whatever else for outlaw and assassination. There isn’t really any room to change things. I think what could be really interesting is to move smokebomb to a general ability, considering every spec has an option to use it anyway. At that point it is pretty much an identity to rogue as a whole. What could replace it? Well, it would be neat to see Thick as Thieves move to assassination and sub, Dismantle would be a great opportunity to add to the other specs. Garrote would be an interesting addition to sub. Seeing how sub already has rupture wouldn’t be too far fetched to add garrote to our pvp talents. Being able to choose between 10% shadow damage / disarm / silence / coordinated damage with tricks, is very interesting to be able to choose from.

Rework or replace
Shadow Focus
This talent choice isn’t really impactful in anyway. Sub is already good with its resources and it is completely overshadowed by nightstalker and subterfuge.

Shot in the Dark
It’s like I’ve said previously, rogue resource management is already really good. Most of the time you’re going to have more than enough energy even if you cheap shot from stealth or during dance. Overall, symbols of death refunds the energy you spent on the cheapshot anyway so I just don’t really see an incentive to pick this talent.

Night Terrors
This talent really doesn’t have a purpose with the returning of crippling poison. It was never really optimal to pick at any point during all of BFA. Prey on the weak is much better. It’d be neat to see it reworked into something different along with shot in the dark. Having an option to do something else is much better than playing prey on the weak forever.

Conclusion
There’s a lot more testing to be done as I haven’t had enough time to fully test everything and of course it makes sense to not give back too much or give a class too much of something but I think for general class design everyone would like more freedom to do things. Same with covenants, hopefully there isn’t any significant changes after everyone’s chosen so either loosen the restrictions on swapping or get the numbers perfect. One is a lot easier than the other so hopefully the restrictions are loosened.

Edit:
One other thing I thought would be cool, with the removal of the trinket in the pvp talents, it’d be nice to just have an extra pvp talent option. I’d say that adding more things to rogue could be tricky to balance if anything like that happens with an additional talent choice but replacing the pvp trinket talent slot could be an interesting change.

4 Likes

So far, playing assasination and my hardest hitting ability is Necrolord bonespike which is a joke…

Aside from that I have suggestion for Shiv to make it Defensive utility only.

Just remove the toxic blade damage increase from it and bake it into Envenom.

When you Envenom, your nature damage done is increased by 30% for the full duration of the Envenom buff.

3 Likes

So that new sub rogue AoE finisher? I know it does damage but it really needs some higher number tuning. As of 9/4 the finisher feels weak, almost as if I spent combo points and nothing happened.

I also would love if it didn’t prevent movement during the animation, if at all possible.

5 Likes

Can we please get back Cheap shot giving 2 combo points ?
Its really bad and slow paced, atleast for assassination spec if u open on target with cheap shot, u need to 2x mutilate to got 5cp and then you’re energy starved to do any finisher…

and give us some better form of energy regen, cuz without Lucid Dream essences the energy starvation is a real deal and its not even fun to wait 4 seconds to actually do something with 3 maintenance buffs on top of it…

Suggestions - Make Venomous Wounds refund 10 energy/per bleed

Return of Relentless strikes since it was an assassination talent during old days…
Finishing move will refund 5 energy per combo point spend.

Slice n dice will also gives you 5 energy per sec.

11 Likes

This post isn’t helpful one bit, but it is a “sign of the greater Rogue thinking”. Covenants are awful, except for Necrolords. As it stands, I see no reason to play a Rogue in Shadowlands over Feral. They at least have options for Shadowlands greatest, biggest feature (Covenants). As it stands, Rogues are hamstrung into choosing Necrolords. The other three have numerous issues with them as detailed heavily in this post and the post asking for thoughts on the Covenants with each spec/class.

I can’t stress this enough - if there are changes coming, please say so. Please vocalize that. As it stands the Rogue community kind of feels in the dark and doesn’t have a very optimistic tone in relation to Covenants.

EDIT: I probably should note that Rogues are very fun to play in Shadowlands and look to be a promising class at it’s core. So just to be fair, there are issues with Rogues and their covenants. Otherwise, I personally feel (others may object) that Rogues are in a good place.

12 Likes

PvP Talent Idea

So I’ve read over a fair bit of other’s posts and I thought perhaps it’d be neat to share an idea for sub. Just sort of shooting an idea out there and maybe others have suggestions too.

I think it would be interesting to give sub rogues a talent that would offer the chance to sacrifice 1 charge of shadowstep in place of getting another charge of vanish. This would be a pretty big talent and sort of alleviate our desire for getting preparation back. Couldnt think of any cool names but uhhh how about like Slip Through the Shadows :woman_shrugging::woman_shrugging:

Thief’s bargain does already reduce the cooldown of vanish to 45s at the cost of 15% health but the tradeoff isn’t worth it. So maybe that could replace thief’s bargain and or be the change to it.

3 Likes