FEEDBACK: Rogue Class Changes

No, it’s definitely for no reason. The need to try and show someone as ‘incompetent’ instead of having a good faith discussion about class design vs player biases is a pretty common tactic.

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Indeed, I have no faith in your feedback. I’ve seen too many of your bad takes on sub, not only on this beta thread but many rogue threads.

Even other people have called you out for just being needlessly argumentative on this very thread.

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Fortunately I am not asking you to have any faith in anything I say. I am not posting for you, but in a feedback thread for Blizzard so they understand that this silly ‘we want WoD Sub back’ movement isn’t a unified feeling.

I don’t care a little bit about what you think of me as a Rogue. I don’t have to resort to looking at logs to try and helplessly look more correct.

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The fact you even acknowledge so many people want old sub, that you call it a movement is all that needs to be said.

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Eh? I’m pretty sure that like 99.999% of the people here asking for old Sub weren’t basking in the glory of ToS or Uldir. They were probably in an arena queue hoping to fight another shaman so they could take a nap while tunneling it.

Or, if by ToS, you mean Tomb of Sargeras, we were probably outside the raid randomly oneshotting people with the broken legendary fan build and thinking to ourselves “wow, this is utterly stupid.”

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From my experience as a mostly PvP player who PvE’s when needed to get by and used to parse sub PvE in older expansions like cataclysm here’s my feedback of the testing I’ve tried to do for all 3 specs (hard with soulbinds/conduits not adapting to spec):

What I’ve liked:

  • Having a rotation again slice back is nice. Even after the conduit healing gets toned down you can feel the dps from juggling all 3 finishers again as sub. Tying energy regen to it again in place of shadow technique procs would have made the feeling even smoother.
  • Subs weaknesses against plate being addressed as well as it’s being kited problem from it formerly having a 30% snare.
  • Lot of borrowed power being gone or at least moved to more consistent and less disruptive borrowed power. BFA was a very toxic experience from inconsistencies of layered systems. Having specs entire burst be propped up by things like reaping and spine of drest makes things very hard to balance or actual have specs feel different.
  • Shadowblades feels much more like an actual cooldown now when it comes to shadowstrike damage and needing the combo points more with the cheap shot change.

Gouge and Garrote.

  • Doesn’t feel like enough was unpruned. Gouge and Garrote being separated definitely feels 1 dimensional and further stays away from rogues old identity of being able to peel well without having to do counter goes with stuns. Monks pretty much took all the peels rogues had in older expansions, but with better versions, such as ranged undodgeable disarm and ranged paralyze incap removing dots.
  • Plenty of concessions could be made to make outlaw feel like it had the best gouge such as lower cd / energy cost or that spec not needing to use bleeds that can break it etc.
  • In addition to say a hypothetical 15-30sec increased cd and 15+ energy cost on gouge you could make garrote unusable from out of stealth for outlaw/sub and give garrote a cd for non assassination specs to prevent things like sub DR garroting during dance as an interrupt.

Old Sub Design:

  • Would have loved to see sub truly routine back to its hit and run design of rotating vanish/prep vanish (or 2nd charge)/restealths in between dances with a bigger find weakness that didn’t get reduced by finishers or have crit find weakness procs.
  • Having 2 charges of 3min vanish would go a long way towards feeling like having prep again. If dances weren’t being lowered by finishers and find weakness was more impactful to reward restealths.

Concerns:

  • Premed is still overwriting higher duration slice and dices which i’m not sure if is just a bug, but worth mentioning. Also seems to be a dead talent PvE wise, due to dance not generating the buff makes it only being used in opener and with 1 vanish every 2 minute is pretty weak. Would have much rather seen old 20sec premed baseline as an ability or even the talent being the active version to be weaved into dance rotation.
  • Using Venthir covenant ability slaughter on outlaw seems like it will be very clunky opener wise with no subterfuge and vanishing just to get slaughter poison up is a big utility investment.
  • Shiv/Toxic Blade being merged together when they have different roles of ability feels very clunky. Shiv is normally a utility peel to slow since most enrage effects to remove are gone from PvP. Being forced to use shiv as a dps cooldown feels very clunky for assassination. If not wanting to change things for pvpers for the sake of button bloat than consider enrage mechanics to soothe in raids that will be a mess having to hold a core rotational ability for.
  • Master poisoner buffing crippling leads to 30yd range poison knife throw 60% snare is pretty toxic design that I hope doesn’t make it out of bfa.
  • Wound poison being 4% a stack in PvP 3 stacking to 12 when other classes have 25 in pvp seems over reaching and just a way to force assassination being on top by being able to 5stack wound when other rogue specs can’t. I do think warriors should have the identity of best mortal strike, but being equal to assa and twice as good as the other rogue specs very big deal. Giving all 3 rogue specs a nerfed 5 stack that goes up to 20% in pvp as well as toning down WW mortal strike to 20% makes sense due to their less ramp up time/no investment and leave warriors / hunters investing pets to have the identity of best mortal strike.
  • Another issue is venthir being completely dead on arrival in PvP since you can’t have slaughter poison and lethal poisons at same time. Assassination wound poison is going to be more useful than slaughter poison.
  • With glyphs being gone old cheap shot / garrote glyph durations are still lowered which is only really felt against orcs and people with relentless effects. Maybe this should be the expansion to reconsider removing racials from rated Arenas. As much as I love shadowmeld functioning as a 2nd vanish it has always felt like one of the only fun radials compared to toxic passive defensive bonuses in things like combining human trinket with relentless or playing orcs in PvP.
  • No new honor talents yet. Would be nice to not have the same 3 slots with 4 mandatory honor talents for sub/assa going into the next expansion with more stuff baseline.
  • Crimson vial being 20% down from 30% is an ok change, but I would have liked to see more be done about self healing / hybrid healing in general. If not might need a bandaid like 3v3 areans starting in dampening like 2v2 arenas. Miss the era of bandaging or mages channeling evocate to heal with the glyph. Made health feel a lot more finite.
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It would feel further from assa with a change like that. Also would bump up the rhythm of the spec knowing when your energy is ticking rather than rng shadow technique procs.

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Some feedback for Outlaw:

Crimson Vial took a huge hit to our survivability. Outlaw is the only spec with no synergy with other abilities/talents to increase healing. I think 20% is too severe, I recommend increasing it slightly to 25%.

Grapping Hook: I doubt anyone will choose the talent for this; the other two talents are far and away better. I recommend changing the talent so it increases grapple distance instead of a CD reduction.

RTB: This should be off the global CD, it feels very clunky right now.

Covenants: As many others in this thread have said, the only viable option for rogues is Necrolords. I strongly encourage you to rework the other three convenant talents.

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Yea, it’s crazy that you can’t have lethal poisons and slaughter poison at same time.

I don’t think their not wanting people to be turned down from groups based on their covenant argument can hold up even if necrolord bonespike got nerfed more.

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Its not even a matter of power, although balancing between the four is out of whack as well.

Necrolord is the only one that feels like a fully functioning ability.

Night Fae works fine, except for the fact that its nearly unusable solo because it makes you Vanish and…whoops! Mob deagros and so its useless. So, have fun with a Damage Ability you can’t use while alone.

Venthyr has the Lethal poison issue like you mentioned, as well as the fact that you can only use it from stealth and so it feels…pretty boring really. At least the other three abilities are fairly interactive. Slaughter is just fire and forget.

And then the Kyrian ability is just awful to use for very limited benefit. I hated every moment of trying to use it because of how Rogues have so many RNG based combo points. And not only that, going to a 7 point finisher isn’t -that- valuable, especially not for the attention you have to pay to actually make it happen.

Necrolord’s ability? Feels fun to use, isn’t overly complex, does solid damage, and interacts with your rotation in a fun way. Its pretty much perfect.

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The Kyrian ability might be ok for Sub if it hit harder since Shadow Tech is rather predictable. But if I’m going to queue up x-1 combos and count swings to match the animacharge, it should feel a bit more rewarding.

As is, it’s probably better to ignore it unless it lines up on accident with a 4, and just focus on pumping out as many Eviscs as possible to keep Dance and Symbols of Tiger Inquisition synced.

But, yea, with Seal Fate or Outlaw’s eleventy ways to find extra combos? Forgetaboutit.

I think it would be better if, instead of a short CD that you’re constantly using and having to basically monitor and micromanage CP for all the time for a small gain on the finisher. Instead make it a long CD and a huge gain.

Something like a 2 minute CD that gave you a 20 point finisher. (Obviously this would need proper number adjustment). But for a reward like that, and not having to fiddle with combo points constantly? It would be more enjoyable. But as is, you barely notice the difference between a 7 point finisher and a 5 or 6 point one.

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Yea, a 2m attack that just straight gives you 20cp could be interesting.

Or, maybe, keeping with the spirit of the original ability, have it cause other abilities generate an extra combo and essentially raise the max points to 10 for the next ~10 seconds.

As far as the UI goes, it could work like Enhance maelstrom and display a Kyrian rune (instead of the lightning parenthesis) that lights up in sections as you over/anima-charge your combo points. Rather than actually showing 10 combo points on your unit frame.

This would work for all the specs regardless of wacky rando points, wouldn’t be as devalued by deep strat, and the UI would be a bit more user friendly than looking at the number on the icon in the buff frame.

The damage might even compete with Bone Spike too lol.

Plus the good old capacitor trinket, i must add.

I’ve been trying to keep up on this topic, but I feel it necessary to add my own two cents to the conversation.
Having leveled a Rogue through each zone on the Beta I have some real concerns about the usefulness and fun factor of several of our covenant abilities. As it stands, the only one that is really beneficial and not frustrating is Necrolord.

Night Fae - in the open world, which, let’s be honest, is where MOST people will play MOST of their game (dailies, yadda yadda) it’s so darn frustrating and useless unless a mob is nearly dead. It does a truck load of damage but gives you that 10 second window before the mob evades and resets. A simple fix for this would be to make Vanish reset and useable without incurring a cooldown. Not a “mandatory” vanish like it is now. This is NOT fun

Bastion - The absolute worst. Under no circumstance is this useful. It does Rupture DOT damage (~ish) and forces a very VERY frustrating scenario on the Rogue each time it’s used. And that’s trying to “match” the proper combo points in order to get an ability that hits a little harder. With the way combo points are in the current game, trying to land on a specific number is just unreliable and, as I’ve mentioned already, VERY frustrating. This is NOT fun. A simple fix for this could be making the ability use any number of combo points to make your next finisher do 7 points worth of damage/effect. The damage of this needs to make this worthwhile, too.

Venthyr - I love the idea but it’s just boring, fire-and-forget damage that is 100% useless to Subtlety. For the other two specs it’s essentially a repeat poison and Ambush mixed together. There’s no reason to choose this, unfortunately. A simple fix would be to simply give us a poison that lasts an hour like normal poisons and have it empower one or more of our other abilities to deal extra X poison damage. Something added to our mix of abilities is fun and engaging but it needs to fit into our rotation and it needs to be useable without the frustration.

Necrolord - Hits like a truck, has charges, low energy cost, and builds combo points. What more could you ask for? Seriously, this meshes perfectly with rotations, gives us nice AOE damage when we need it, and more importantly gives us combo points at a low energy cost to mix in with our other abilities. There’s nothing that feels “mandatory” about it, simply fire it off when you can. No complaints about this at all.

Thematically speaking, I personally would love to be Venthyr. I’ve always been the type of player who liked getting myself into places I normally can’t go, and Door of Shadows is perfect. The theme of the covenant is fun and rewarding, but the class ability just sucks. Thematically, I really don’t want to be a Necrolord. I feel it’s better suited for classes like Warriors, Death Knights, etc. But as it stands, I feel railroaded into one covenant choice because I just don’t enjoy any of the other ones.

I know I’m one person and one player. I don’t represent the entire Rogue community, but I have noticed a LOT (read: most) of Rogue players expressing similar concerns. Personally, I just don’t feel like Rogue is a finished class in Shadowlands. Playing one is fun and engaging, but the extra “borrowed power” you gain from Shadowlands is awful as it stands.

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After additional testing in LFR Nathria and some M+, I still feel Outlaw is suffering from several major problems that need to be ironed out before Shadowlands goes live.

Firstly, the gameplay feels severely unfocused, clunky and intuitive. There are two finishers, two core buffs, three combo point builders, and 3 cooldowns. The core rotation is 9 buttons, 10 with Dreadblades, and 11 with BIS Covenant Necrolords. Here is a list of all the things Outlaw Rogues need to watch in order to maximize damage:

  1. Combo points
  2. Use Adrenaline Rush and Dreadblade when they’re available.
  3. Check SnD or RtB buff duration, reapply if needed
  4. Check whether I have good RtB buffs
  5. Check whether SBS is off cooldown for reapplication
  6. Check for Pistol Shot procs
  7. Check to see if RtB is off of cooldown for reroll if I have bad buffs
  8. Check if Blade Flurry is off CD since it’s a single target DPS increase
  9. Figure out whether the target will stay alive long enough to make it worth using BtE

Is there something we can remove here to give the spec a bit more focus? What other problems does Outlaw suffer from to make it unbalanced or unfun?


Between the Eyes in its current form creates several problems for the specialization:

  1. Punishes the Rogue for target switching
  2. Requires too many combo points to be used successfully in short encounters, such as M+ (5 for BtE, 5 for your next Dispatch)
  3. Continues to make Ruthless Precision overpowered in terms of outcomes for Roll the Bones, creating degenerate gameplay

My proposal is to make Between the Eyes automatically applied as part of our core rotation and not a finisher.

This method of application offers several advantages against the current design of the ability:

  1. One less finisher to worry about, allowing us to focus on SnD, RtB and Pistol Shot procs
  2. Our ramp up time is significantly lessened in single target, and AOE damage requires less setup
  3. Ruthless Precision is considerably less overpowered compared to the other RtB buffs if the damage portion of Between the Eyes does not depend on your crit chance
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A lot of reading but does anyone have suggested covenants they think would work best for us undead Sub rogues?

Honestly there’s only one worthwhile covenant for Rogue’s right now and it’s Necrolord. It plays fantastically and is utterly amazing to use. Sadly, because it stands out it’s likely to get overly nerfed at some point instead of buffing the others to be competitive, simply cause it stands out way too much. Sepsis during group content is “somewhat enjoyable” but it needs significant buffs in damage honestly. The others are awful… Echoing Reprimand is way too RNG control with our uncontrollable combo point generation. And Slaughter is very ST centric with absolutely no measurable damage increase, it’s very “unfun” too.

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Assassination & Slice and Dice just simply don’t belong together…

I’m all for unpruning but this needs to be pruned right back into the trash can for that particular spec. Let’s think of it like Rupture and Outlaw… Outlaw didn’t get Rupture back, Assa doesn’t need SnD.

Right now, Assa has:

  1. Garrote
  2. Rupture
  3. Potentially Crimson Tempest but let’s ignore that
  4. Needs to generate for Muti
  5. Needs to use Toxic Blade (Shiv)
  6. Pool Energy for Envenom
  7. Envenom into Muti spam

What happens when you add “another” maintenance buff is what’s already happening in BFA. It’s simply going to be a dps increase to just mash the buttons off CD because pooling for “envenom” and “toxic blade” windows will cause your maintenance to fall off. The addition of the SnD further exacerbates this problem, there’s no point in having TB/Envenom provide short duration buffs if we’re not acting on them. The buffs are just coincidental at that point.

Further, Assa has absolutely no AoE finisher other than Crimson Tempest adding “more bleeds” to the equation further muddling the rotation. CT should be removed and replaced with a “combo point consumer” that does what Echoing Blades does on Live. This would enable actual rotational gameplay changes based on mob packs and situation.

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Ya know, it might be better to just swap CT and Shadow Vault (changing the latter to poison damage, of course).

Since Assassins don’t really have the energy to spam it, a Poison Vault could be tuned up to do respectable damage. And, in reverse, by being a dot, CT would tone down the spam on Sub, while still being sorta bursty if they make the dot short enough. It would also feel a little less redundant when pared with Secret Tech, Tornado, or DfA.

But, then, a Poison Vault might work better as a refactor of Poison Bomb, which would mean coming up with something else for CT?

Maybe stick Cut to the Chase where that was and count two birds in the bush with one road. :wink:

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